Is Garrosh one of the more misunderstood and better written characters in WC

[KrakHed]

Blackhand literally beat them into submission. Ogres weren't brought into the Horde "diplomatically."

Maybe I haven't read Rise of the Horde too recently, but I recall it was a point where the Gronn were definitely beating the Ogres and the Ogres preferred the treatment the Orcs were offering them. It's also a point that Ogres do respond to violence and strength. He at least needed to prove to them his Horde was strong, because it being preferable to the Gronn wouldn't have been enough on its own if they thought the Horde was weak,

[Wildberry]

Maybe I haven't read Rise of the Horde too recently, but I recall it was a point where the Gronn were definitely beating the Ogres and the Ogres preferred the treatment the Orcs were offering them. It's also a point that Ogres do respond to violence and strength. He at least needed to prove to them his Horde was strong, because it being preferable to the Gronn wouldn't have been enough on its own if they thought the Horde was weak,

, yet recruited them by understanding their culture and desires? Which was done way back in the days of Blackhand.

Which is to say, Blackhand was able to be diplomatic with a race his people had hated for as long as they had existed, while Garrosh was so abrasive he alienated races who were already their allies.

The Gronn weren't treating the Ogres great, but to bring them into the Horde, Blackhand kidnapped 3 of them, spent days coercing them, led an attack on their home to force them into the Horde at sword point, then went on to slaughter even more ogres.

So no, there was no diplomacy. Blackhand didn't try to understand their culture and desires. His offer was "join us, or we'll kill the rest of you."

Why do you try to backpeddle, twist definitions, miscontextualize and abuse relativism whenever you say something that's just inarguably wrong?

[Deleted]

Then why do people keep asking for Ogres? Or did you forget the Old Horde had Ogres, the ancient enemies of their people, yet recruited them by understanding their culture and desires? Which was done way back in the days of Blackhand.

First of all, Orcs and Ogres are closely related. They do cross-breed and there is even a clan that consist of both Orcs and Ogres.

You act like Blackhand drank tea with the Ogres or something.

In Hellscream's short story it showed how Garrosh managed to make all the Orcs clans become allies of each other; by creating a common enemy. Blackhand/Gul'dan did the same, they created a common enemy which was Azeroth. Orcs and Ogres had no reason to attack each other, there is really no complex diplomacy going on with races of Draenor. Anyone who did not wanted to join the Horde becomes their enemy and gets slaughtered, that's how Blackhand kept the Orcs and Ogres together.

The only race that gets attacked regardless are the Draeneis and the Arakkoa.

Garrosh, Blackhand and Orgrim are very similar. They are tacticians and powerful warriors that know how to lead the Orcs to victory, but they aren't able to lead non-Orcs, they mostly become the victims of the Orcs.

Which is to say, Blackhand was able to be diplomatic with a race his people had hated for as long as they had existed, while Garrosh was so abrasive he alienated races who were already their allies.

Thrall made the Azeroth allies, Garrosh had to work with them. He tried, but the leaders of the allies didn't co-operated with him as he wished. In fact, it went totally wrong and it's not because of Garrosh. It is Cairne who randomly started to accuse Garrosh for crimes he didn't even do. Garrosh repeated himself many times that he wasn't involved, yet the "wise tauren" kept on accusing Garrosh, Cairne even got violent and starts to punch Garrosh which led to a Mak'gora. Another random Tauren had to disturb the Mak'gora by putting poison on Garrosh blade to back-stab Cairne.

Obviously, Garrosh lost his respect for the Taurens and for a good reason. They are not trustworthy as the Orcs.

Then you have Vol'jin who did nothing but complain for literally 2 expansions. Being useless by himself and constant annoyance, Garrosh saw no purpose for Vol'jin in the Horde either.

And of course Forsaken, the kind of faction Garrosh lead war against during the Wrath of the Lich King. He hated the Lich King, but having a Lich King as allies was a difficult to accept for him. And Sylvanas is a High Elf who took 2 heavy blows from the Horde during Orgrim's period. She lost her mother, but also her only brother the Windrunner sisters had. Of course Garrosh couldn't trust such person.

It was too easy for Garrosh to just get along with the Orcs, because that's the race where he is from.

That last part is important. The Horde and Alliance generally tolerated a certain degree of conflict and skirmishing before going to all out war. The Alliance's tolerance of Garrosh's bullshit was pretty much the only way he got as far as he did, and Orgrimmar was never nuked in retribution for Theramore. It's easy to make gains when the other faction is keeping the kid gloves on, and still thinks you can be reasoned with. As we're seeing in BfA, the Alliance is more than capable of doing major damage to the Horde should those kid gloves ever come off. So the Horde kept to minor border disputes and skirmishing, because they weren't willing to go all in to try to destroy the Alliance when they didn't even particularly dislike the Alliance too much.

Horde was a super-power during the era of Garrosh. The fact that Orgrimmar changed from mud-city to a heavy iron fortress with robotic scorpions and nukes says it all. Garrosh was more likely to destroy the Alliance according to Wrathion. But only if he kept his allies at his side, so that failed.

[Zandalariprelate]

Another fanservice feature about battle for Azeroth "Garrosh didn't nothing wrong"

[Captain Kennedy]

I think most people agree that Garrosh BC - Cata was a great character. Not necessarily a guy you root for, but he created an interesting dynamic in the Horde. MoP onwards he became utter trash and goes so far in the wrong direction his actions flat out contradict himself.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Garrosh was alright. His story was just kinda told in an odd way. Becuase in MoP their was no "big bad" but he was the "big bad" so they kind of tip-toed around the story to perserve the myth of the "no big bad" until the end. Then they pretty much killed him off at the very start of WoD when he was the "big bad" at the start of the expansion but then was replaced almost instantly. I am fairly certain their might have been a book inbetween that tied it all together a little better. Or if you dove into lore a bit more heavily it was told in a better way. But you shouldn't have to purchase extra media or piece the puzzle together to get the whole story in a video game. Let a lone a MMORPG. I think the 14 months between the sides of this in game story also break the momentum a bit for him as well. People were just tired of him and his story because of the gap

[Kokolums]

Garrosh is that character where if you prefer shades of grey, you try to shoehorn Garrosh into a shades of grey stereotype. If you like black and white characterization, you try to shoehorn him into a moustache twirling villain stereotype. Garrosh is a mirror of what's inside your own heart.

[Aucald]

Garrosh was an interesting character - but I think a lot of people have the tendency to laud him for would-haves and could-have-beens as opposed to what he was and did. Garrosh was ultimately self-defeating, protected only by a veneer of valorous and honorable conduct that was, in large part, undeserved. He rode into prominence simply as the son of the famous Grom Hellscream, tapping into the legacy of his father and playing it to the hilt with his peers as his renown grew. But his ascension to Warchief exposed his failings rather swiftly: an inability to accept criticism, his lack of proficiency in working with the other leaders of the Horde, and a black and white worldview that made nuance or circumstance slip from his grasp entirely.

Garrosh was a hothead, prone to act without thinking things through and failing to learn from his mistakes. I think the primary aspect that needs to be remembered about Garrosh is that his initial reaction to Thrall appointing him as Warchief was to refuse the promotion - he had the wherewithal to know he wasn't qualified for it, and suggested (showing perhaps the most wisdom he would even portray as a character) that he was better qualified as a military adviser or general of the Horde's forces. In that, Thrall himself bears as much blame as Garrosh for what would come later when Garrosh went completely 'round the bend.

[bufferunderrun]

Sort of a long post, but this character is interesting and very tragic if you take the time to think about it and consume depth from the novels.

He had an exceptionally shitty upbringing because of Grom, which founded numerous mental issues. After being recruited into the Horde, he spends his time acting tough, trying to impress others and that he is worthy of dad's legacy, like what he did with Alliance sailors in front of Cairne. But other than the Orcs serving under him, no one really likes or respects him. Thrall then slaps Warchief title onto him hastily despite his vocal doubts.

Garrosh is then repeatedly antagonized by every other race and their faction leader in the Horde. With Vol'jin and Baine, he repeatedly tries to impress them and win their favor but is coldly rejected every time just because of previous tensions (unintentionally killing the latter's daddy), and Sylvanas and the Blood Elves couldn't care less. But the Orcs of Orgrimmar love him for his war hero status and bringing prosperity to them where Thrall didn't.

So being a mentally fragile guy that desperately wants approval but keeps getting rejected by all but Orgrimmar, it's not really surprising he would be corrupted by and so easily in favor of the Blackrock Orcs and Malkorok that only ever say yes to him and worship him. You can tell how fucked up Garrosh became in the head mostly when he started associating with these Orcs, especially Malkorok who pretty much became his best friend.

You can just see how fucked up Garrosh is mentally in War Crimes and through his interactions with Anduin, he speaks the way he does and acts in WoD because he feels like he has nothing left but to go on the path he's chosen by now since Azeroth obviously wants him dead.

Overall, I think as an example of a mentally ill character, Garrosh was done well and it pisses me off Thrall denies any responsibility and most people see him as a mustache twirling villain.

sorry if i tell you this but you use the same justificationism that we ear in the world when someone do something, it's not entirely it's fault it's society who made him what it is; bs imho garrosh suck as leader and as a military commander, everything he has done was it's own retardedness and Thrall is not some sort of bronze dragon who know the future, he left plenty of advisors with him.

If anything the real peoples we need to blame are the other retarded horde leaders who failed big time to keep garrosh in check and some actually took advantage to it's warlike nature to do what they want (sylvanas).

Blizzard created Garrosh only for the purpose of shifting the horde from the shadow of grey faction into the evil one and all the Warchief who succeeded him had the same identical reason that is why at the end of mop they made varian stop thrall and designated that failure of a troll as warchief (who was one of the advisor left in charge to control garrosh).

[Skytotem]

Garrosh doesn't make sense as a character because he essentially doesn't exist outside of ranting and raving, we're never treated to Garrosh sitting down to eat lunch or living for a few minutes outside of the faction conflict, which we get glimpses of with other characters.

We also never see him address the fact that Jaina helped save Grom and it's inconceivable that Thrall didn't tell him.

[Powerogue]

Garrosh did nothing wrong.



I think you summed it up pretty well that it wasn't a simple "Grr I'm evil now!" but that he was very malleable. Before becoming warchief he had influences like Saurfang, but after that point he just surrounded himself with Yes Men, some of which just happened to have tentacles (tentacle monsters bent on destroying azeroth are people too!)

[Magnagarde]

He was my favourite orc character untill they, for some reason, decided to turn him into a maniac who taps into Old God powers.

[huth]

Right, but we didn't get anything like that that bridged Cata Garrosh to MoP Garrosh. In fact, if I recall correctly, the questline where Garrosh drops the Kor'kron guy off the cliff for using a manabomb wasn't meant to really be canon and was a result of the Cataclysm quest writers not being on the same page as the main team, who were all working on writing MoP.

That's the problem. It's not that Garrosh developed into a different character, it's that we see none of that development at all.

It makes sense if you assume he was angry at him wasting the bomb on a low priority target, rather than acting dishonorably, and just using it for PR. That was when he still knew he needed the non-orc parts of the Horde.

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Not. check my link, that isn't what happened, Alex flat out state that different teams worked on Garrosh and they didn't know what the other was 'doing' (yes, in same company, in same department, maybe in same office, but he said 'they didn't know')

I wasn't talking about what the creative teams were doing(and it isn't that odd if they weren't talking at the time, which they probably lacked the time to do), i was talking about his behaviour. It's not a big step from a racial "patriot" to a supremacist.

[therealstegblob]

It makes sense if you assume he was angry at him wasting the bomb on a low priority target, rather than acting dishonorably, and just using it for PR. That was when he still knew he needed the non-orc parts of the Horde.

Nah, man. It was a lapse in writing. Garrosh gives a whole mini-speech about honor and stuff, culminating in him outright quoting Saurfang's honor quote.

[sam86]

I wasn't talking about what the creative teams were doing(and it isn't that odd if they weren't talking at the time, which they probably lacked the time to do), i was talking about his behaviour. It's not a big step from a racial "patriot" to a supremacist.

It is a crappy shit step not just massive, to change from a guy who blamed Kromgar for attacking innocent, children even (his exact words) to enslave kids to ensure the Magnatur would obey him and mana bomb dirty war
Did horde have the right to attack Theramore ? absolutely, did they have to use a dirty bomb to kill everyone inside city, including children? absolutely NOT, he had no idea that children escaped and he should been flat out against it, like the fucking Garrosh that did that in Stonetalon Mountains, the same Garrosh who charged a twilight drake showing zero fear in the Twilight Highlands quest chain
Garrosh of cataclysm is extremely clear to be against use civilians and children and would kill anyone who do that, few months, Garrosh of pandalands said to Ishi who died for the horde (the blademaster in the bell ring chain quest) that he was worthless, a warrior who literally died for Garrosh, Garrosh insulted his death
Garrosh of Cata is the leader the horde need, a guy who would give no shit to alliance aggression, who will fuck alliance for claiming Lordearon is 'theirs', the same alliance who sold out Lordearon in its time of need (Gilneas built the wall literally to isolate from Lordearon, and Stormwind as shown in comic Varian was busy being emo and ignored Lordearon plea of help), who would invade Ashenvale to take wood to ensure horde survive instead of keep them for night elfs to hump them, horde never had a strong leader, Thrall was a lovely leader, but he went green jesus shit path that disgust me, Vol'jin had a friend random npc hunter human, left horde in their hour of need busy doing some kung fu, and Sylvanas never showed interest in non forsaken in first place ever

[KrakHed]

the same Garrosh who charged a twilight drake showing zero fear in the Twilight Highlands quest chain

No, that particular Garrosh was terrible. He was the one who opened his air fleet up to attack by throwing his personal escort away in an act of meaningless aggression, even when warned it would leave them open for attack. Which happened. If that one scene was different, the entire player response to Garrosh would likely have been more balanced.

I couldn't be impressed by his lack of fear, because he had just demonstrated the truth in the saying "only fools are without fear" by throwing all caution to the wind and losing his entire fleet for it.

With a few adjustments, Garrosh could have been a great Warchief. By the end of the experience, there's really only one position I think Garrosh truly excels in. Garrosh is exactly the type of Orc I'd put in charge of military industry, and nothing else. That's the one field Garrosh truly excels in. He's great for modernizing the military, and his successes are probably more tied to his innovative use of resources and technologies the Horde has previously encountered or had access to.

Give Garrosh a crack team of Goblin engineers and whoever else he asks for, and he'll give the military all the awesome death machines it'd ever need. The mana bomb, the Magnataur, the use of Protodrakes, the acquisition of the Divine Bell, and the entirety of the Iron Horde. These are all examples of what Garrosh was truly good at. His true calling.

Garrosh should have been placed in Research and Development.

I'd be more than proud to drive around in a tank built by the Hellscream Corporation, to defend a fortress with Hellscream approved walls and cannons. To drop bombs with Hellscreams name written all over them. To carry lumber and other resources around on Hellscream approved trains.

I just don't want to fight directly under him. I do not want to see him in politics. The tragedy of Garrosh was that someone took one of the finest scientific minds the Orcish people had ever produced, and they taught him he had to be a warrior like his father and put him in charge of a nation.

[Deleted]

I loved the brutal , harsh and savage Orc culture from the RTS Games. Thrall was never a typical Orc in Charge. Garrosh was the best we got and than MoP came and Blizzard screwed everything up. Vol´Jin was weak and lets not talk about fanservice Sylvannas. I hope atleast when BFA is over we get Saurfang as the leader.

[sam86]

No, that particular Garrosh was terrible. He was the one who opened his air fleet up to attack by throwing his personal escort away in an act of meaningless aggression, even when warned it would leave them open for attack. Which happened. If that one scene was different, the entire player response to Garrosh would likely have been more balanced.

I couldn't be impressed by his lack of fear, because he had just demonstrated the truth in the saying "only fools are without fear" by throwing all caution to the wind and losing his entire fleet for it.

That what I liked, I even prefer that we - horde - stayed in Broken Shore to death, we don't shout Lok'tar Ogar so we run away even if we are losing
Horde should know no fear, yes that makes us more to idiot side but that what I love, fight to death
That doesn't mean u should like it, just what I like, Lok'tar Ogar, not Lok'tar run away like chickens

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I loved the brutal , harsh and savage Orc culture from the RTS Games. Thrall was never a typical Orc in Charge. Garrosh was the best we got and than MoP came and Blizzard screwed everything up. Vol´Jin was weak and lets not talk about fanservice Sylvannas. I hope atleast when BFA is over we get Saurfang as the leader.

I don't see sadly Saurfang leader, he is very old, a slash from Grenn pushed him away, we talk about Saurfang whose brother is only mortal to ever scratch Sargeras, unrivaled warrior, but he is past his prime by too much

[KrakHed]

I loved the brutal , harsh and savage Orc culture from the RTS Games. Thrall was never a typical Orc in Charge. Garrosh was the best we got and than MoP came and Blizzard screwed everything up. Vol´Jin was weak and lets not talk about fanservice Sylvannas. I hope atleast when BFA is over we get Saurfang as the leader.

Garrosh may be a typical Orc, but he's not a typical Orc Warchief. There was actually a reason given as to why the Chieftains chose Blackhand over Grom in the first Horde. Despite Blackhand's willingness to be a puppet, he was perceived as a more calculating and politically capable Orc. Blackhand has the skills and attitude of a proper Warchief, even if he lacked the proper moral core.

Likewise, Doomhammer was also very calculating and political for an Orc. Because the truth of the matter is that a Warchief can't just be a typical Orc. A Warchief has to be more than a typical Orc, and see more than the typical Orc.

There was a time when Thrall was pretty close to a typical Orc Warchief, but he got soft over the years.

That what I liked, I even prefer that we - horde - stayed in Broken Shore to death, we don't shout Lok'tar Ogar so we run away even if we are losing
Horde should know no fear, yes that makes us more to idiot side but that what I love, fight to death
That doesn't mean u should like it, just what I like, Lok'tar Ogar, not Lok'tar run away like chickens

It's not about not running away. It's about not starting fights for no fucking reason. If you're not going to run away, that's all the more reason to make sure the fight means something.

[Zulkhan]

Orgrim only allied with them because of desperate time. Garrosh did it as well with the Mantids during Siege of Orgrimmar, Taunkas during WOTLK and the Ogres in WoD.

And? Doesn't change the fact that Orgrim knew how to manage non-orcish allies. Your examples are also pretty bad: Taunka were recruited thanks to the Kalimdor Tauren, Garrosh played no diplomatic role in that, Mantid couldn't give a shit about Garrosh and followed him exclusively because of the artifact he stole from Pandaria and Ogres in WoD were literally blackmailed.

Garrosh, Orgrim, Blackhand are pretty similar

No, they're not. Especially Orgrim has fucks to do with Garrosh. The first was a true Orc Warchief who put the faction he led before his personal wishes and desires. Garrosh was an insecure, self-centered manchild in constant need of validation.

Really, I don't believe Orgrim or Blackhand would tolerate Alliance empathy or peace lovers in their faction.

You don't seem to get it. Opposing Garrosh had nothing to do with loving the Alliance. The Darkspear trolls of the rebellion mistook the Alliance PC for "Theramore scum", dat extreme Alliance affection. Hell, the average "New Horde" Orc (the kind of Orc who joined the rebellion) has way far better reasons to hate humans and the Alliance than Garrosh's retarded followers had, orcs mostly beaten in the head with too much Old Horde garbage nostalgia and nothing more.

And Garrosh adores his Orc warriors as well, the Kor'kron were always used as last resort.

No, for Garrosh his Orc warriors were little more than tools. He never shown the slight consideration for individuals, the only thing he cared about was his strongly idealistic and romanticized vision of the Orcish Horde.

Garrosh always tried to get rid of the "weaker/lesser" Horde like the Darkspears or Forsaken, who he didn't trust at all. Blizzard just did their best to make Garrosh look like an evil villain in Siege of Orgrimmar to randomly add Orcs like no one have heard of.

Yeah really, like there was nothing wrong with that mindset at all. And no, there's a whole short-story showing why even your average angry Orc warrior eventually saw Garrosh for the sad joke he eventually proved to be.

Vol'jin was a cowardly piece of shit. He said he won't follow Garrosh but he was too much of a pussy to actually challenge Garrosh himself.

He shows no respect towards the traditions of the Horde. If you don't like your warchief then challenge him to Mak'gora. But you don't get to reject him while hiding away and complaining.

Am I wrong or it was you who accused Cairne of "usurping" Garrosh's position by doing just that? I'm not sure if it was a matter of poor vocabulary or maybe is just hypocrisy.