The new raid buffs.

[Cosmic Janitor]

5% of my current DPS is like 60-90k HPS. That's a fair bit of passive healing.

Even with a Stat Squish, 5% is not a negligible amount.

The issue is that this is mostly overheal depending on the case. In some situations it will certainly be decent, maybe even powerful, in many others utterly useless. It comes down to the next healing meta of the raid and dungeon gameplay. Crit/Haste/flat out dmg is just always good.

[Deleted]

That is nice if you play on a high-pop server (and sometimes not even there) with a guild that tries to be top 100, where you can choose your roster. For average guilds on low pop realms that do mythic but don't aim to be top 100 you take whatever you can get and the people in your guild want to play at the moment. Punishing those that already suffer from the rigid 20 player, no cross realm wankery by potentially missing out on another couple percentage of performance through missing class buffs is just bad design.

That blizzard can only desin encounters with hard fails these days as the difficult part of their raid difficulty, throwing random shit at you like there is no tomorrow and blatantly favor some class abilities because they can negate them completly (rogues) is just up to their terrible design as way. The way the intend to fix that is cure-by-symptom, which is not going to work, because you can still stack these classes beyond what is reasonable.

Well i suppose leech will make healers less relevant. You will be able to replace healers. It might lead to higher damage taken what will make leech even stronger. Possibly we will see more 2 or 1 heals in normal and heroic.

One DK will be probably replace a healer...

[Deleted]

We are discussing both.

We are discussing that in the end, it all comes down to DPS in the end apart from the top majority that needs everything, which usually ends up in situations where whatever doesnt provide DPS is discarded completely.

In this case is where my discussion is focused on, how stupid the community is, and what it causes.

The Rogue buff is so strong as example that without one you are literally 5% behind in DPS as a raid.

Without the DK buff you are 5% healing back? What? Who cares bout that, MA DEEPEE-ES!

As it was said before, 5% leech for the raid basically equals 1 healer. And is superior to 3% lifesteal that prot warriors have due to also benefitting healers. A healer with 5% leech is basically not going to need healing when he pops a raid cd due to massive leech. Same for non-mitigation tanks.

If you can replace a healer with yet another dps (should be possible, classes are supposed to get nondps utility back, hoping for AMZ and gorefiend for DKs) you will definitely gain more than 5% raid dps, especially when rogues only buff physical damage (the only specs that will fully benefit from it are arms, fury (assuming odyn goes dodo), protection (w/o artifact ability), outlaw and marksmanship (if they keep the current playstyle)) so, not many. A bad warlock will definitely be taken though, between 5% magic amp, 40% max hp healthstones, soulstone, gates and summons.

Rogues get the worst buff of the bunch, bar paladins on farm content.

And tbh a class that performs extremely poorly in an encounter might be valuable due to performance boosts to everyone in the raid. That is gold, even though I hate having each of a class in pugs and minmaxing buffs in m+.

[Baddok21]

Depends,5% with 100% uptime is actually kinda decent

if you look at a longer single target fight like Mythic sisters a 5% aura would be a steady 65,000-70,000 HPS

the problem is 10% would be broken

These are the problematic aura's

WARRIOR - Battle Shout Increases the Strength or Agility of all raid and party members within 100 yards by 5% for 1 hour.

ROGUE - Expose Armor Your [generators] expose weaknesses in the target's armor, increasing Physical damage taken by 5%.

WARLOCK - Curse of the Elements Your damage curses the target, increasing magic damage taken by 5% for 1 min.

MAGE - Arcane Intellect 200 Mana, 30 Yard Range, Instant Infuses the target with brilliance, increasing their intellect by 5% for 1 hour. If target is in your party or raid, all party and raid members will be affected.

DRUID - Mark of the Wild 200 Mana, 40 Yard Range, Instant Infuses a friendly target with the power of the wild, increasing their Versatility by 3% for 1 hour. If target is in your party or raid, all party and raid members will be affected.

Aura's should have been

5% Leech (DK)
10% Movement Speed (DH)
10% Avoidance (warrior)
5% Health (Priest)
10% Armor (Paladin)
10% Mana Regen (shaman)
10% Multistrike (Mage,Warlock, Rogue, Hunter)

and make that the only way to get multistrike but have it attached to the 4 pure DPS classes

If damage is balanced (lol) in the next expac there current aura set-up makes

Warrior, Rogue, Monk(heal), Druid (tank), Hunter is the defacto best melee comp (druid/monk tank/heal)

and

Mage, Warlock, Druid, Monk (heal), DH (tank) defacto best caster comp

you max the melee buffs + the benefactors of those buffs
you max the caster buffs + the benefactors of those buffs

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This is some crying shit if I ever heard some. But it really isn't that bad. Everyone getting ever so slightly passively healed does help a raid. Not to mention you dont know the heal model at all. If healing becomes a lot more limited again than it might be the most powerful buff in the game?

[ONCHEhap]

This is some crying shit if I ever heard some. But it really isn't that bad. Everyone getting ever so slightly passively healed does help a raid. Not to mention you dont know the heal model at all. If healing becomes a lot more limited again than it might be the most powerful buff in the game?

To me it sounds like people whining because it doesn't help them with parse whoring tbh

[Low Hanging Fruit]

To me it sounds like people whining because it doesn't help them with parse whoring tbh

Well of course that is the case.

[Deleted]

To me it sounds like people whining because it doesn't help them with parse whoring tbh

In any relevant case you pick anyways all buffs. People are talking about stuff like "now i dont pick a DK". Which is just stupid.

From all those buffs i fear armor is the weakest one for m+ since a lot of damage is magical. But in a +17 keystone with the right affix, it can be the difference between one shot and not one shot, so having 3% more damage or not getting oneshot by abilties - who do you think wins? Also might easily replace healers in easier content and be a powerful boost in difficult raid encounters with constant damage or big aoe (dont forget: aoe dps is much higher, so you can replace e.g. a druid as DK).

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you max the melee buffs + the benefactors of those buffs
you max the caster buffs + the benefactors of those buffs

Wtf you dont understand what "best comb" means. Many raid encounters are about surviving stuff so for difficult content, it is pretty likely you pick e.g. priest + paladin + dk + perhaps druid. Why? Because many encounters aren't about killing stuff 3 sec faster, it's about surviving long enough. There might be points where you need damage (e.g. kill adds faster).

We might see many hybrids where say for boss XY you need max dps, for boss Z you want max survival tools.

And in any raid scenario you want to have ALL buffs anyways. Of course 3% crit is better in LFR - but who cares about LFR????

And believing best combo is about "which combination has the strongest dps buffs" is well -it's retarded. I love playing mythic+ with blood dks because of how strong leech is. The new buff is stronger in 20m raids and weaker in m+.

[Baddok21]

In any relevant case you pick anyways all buffs. People are talking about stuff like "now i dont pick a DK". Which is just stupid.

From all those buffs i fear armor is the weakest one for m+ since a lot of damage is magical. But in a +17 keystone with the right affix, it can be the difference between one shot and not one shot, so having 3% more damage or not getting oneshot by abilties - who do you think wins? Also might easily replace healers in easier content and be a powerful boost in difficult raid encounters with constant damage or big aoe (dont forget: aoe dps is much higher, so you can replace e.g. a druid as DK).

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Wtf you dont understand what "best comb" means. Many raid encounters are about surviving stuff so for difficult content, it is pretty likely you pick e.g. priest + paladin + dk + perhaps druid. Why? Because many encounters aren't about killing stuff 3 sec faster, it's about surviving long enough. There might be points where you need damage (e.g. kill adds faster).

We might see many hybrids where say for boss XY you need max dps, for boss Z you want max survival tools.

And in any raid scenario you want to have ALL buffs anyways. Of course 3% crit is better in LFR - but who cares about LFR????

And believing best combo is about "which combination has the strongest dps buffs" is well -it's retarded. I love playing mythic+ with blood dks because of how strong leech is. The new buff is stronger in 20m raids and weaker in m+.

you generally cheat raid mechanics by having classess with immunities or overpowered and strong dmg reductions that are CLASS based while having the best raid dps as possible. you arent looking for these individual raid auras to boost your survivability to cheat mechanics because that simply wont happen, but you would want the dmg aura to push phases faster.

and the combo would be for M+ as you generally will have every raid buff for a Mythic Raid so thats mute

and grow up with the name calling

[Deleted]

you generally cheat raid mechanics by having classess with immunities or overpowered and strong dmg reductions that are CLASS based while having the best raid dps as possible. you arent looking for these individual raid auras to boost your survivability to cheat mechanics because that simply wont happen, but you would want the dmg aura to push phases faster.

and the combo would be for M+ as you generally will have every raid buff for a Mythic Raid so thats mute

and grow up with the name calling

You did high DHT+ runs tyrannical where one cast will one shot you? Having more hp will help more than 3% crit. Mythic + isnt mostly about having 3% more damage so every raid buff might work, even armor ones.

And not every m+ group will be able to pick best setups. Most like my guild pick them based on player skill, social aspects, availability and of course gear.

No matter the buff the toolkit is more important.

[Deleted]

My point was that top guilds usually can dodge mechanics, and unless there is passive aoe dmg going on from the boss, they couldnt care less for leech.

Quick example is how many world firsts are done with less healers over the last 5 years for that very reason, they can dodge mechanics and their healers can handle the stuff, therefor leech is pretty much useless for them considering top guilds also do the content with less gear than the average other guilds that farm X numbers of bosses for months, once again, example of World Firsts being done in pretty much equal ilvl of the instance, versus 3 months after kills where everyone is 15 ilvls above the raid.

So unless the raid philosophy returns to "Low aoe healing" and "lots of passive damage to heal" leech wont be that effective and it will cost DKs.

This is just a discussion cause we all know how the raiding community works, and how it affects the pugging and everyone else.

Leech isnt useless, but the community is retarded, and this particular buff is the obvious shit that will come up the way the retarded WoW community is.

But isnt this like countering the problem? I mean, stacking classes is less benefitial now right? If you have zero priests, you wont get the stam increase and that might make a difference in a 0.1% wipe. And like someone pointed out already, it's not like warrior buffs are stacking, so it's useless to 2 of them while you are in the lobby as well with you leech buff. (considering you bring the same dps, but we have no details on that)

[potis]

But isnt this like countering the problem? I mean, stacking classes is less benefitial now right? If you have zero priests, you wont get the stam increase and that might make a difference in a 0.1% wipe. And like someone pointed out already, it's not like warrior buffs are stacking, so it's useless to 2 of them while you are in the lobby as well with you leech buff. (considering you bring the same dps, but we have no details on that)

We arent talking about stackable buffs, i never even mentioned them, some random DK in this post did, thats irrelevant cause its stupid and no logical player would consider that as a possibility.

My post was about the DPS hungry majority of bads, regardless of class that do not actually know the game, or follow logic, or follow proper raid compositions.

To the majority of the game DPS=Everything.

Paladins give armor, which according to the few changes from the Blizzcon beta, they are going back to the root of Armor = Reduction by removing most reduction abilities and converting them into armor increase which is very relevant.

Stamina is stamina but even so, Paladin/Priest isnt any different to what i am describing.

But Leech can be non-relevant after awhile.

TLDR: Community is retarded DPS whores, classes that dont provide one will face issues with the mentality of WoW of the last 6 years, not talking about world firsts guilds etc, talking about the majority of bads.

[Khrux]

I wouldn't worry about what class brings what buff, at the end of the day there is only 1 of each class needed to cover all buffs, thats one of each *class* not one of each *spec*.

So even if DKs brought 10% crit, haste and mastery aura, you could still just use a blood tank and have no dps DKs . The shaman, druid, priest, warrior, pala and monk auras can all be covered by a tank/healer role also. The point here is, even though 5% leech isn't amazing, its not like all the other raid spots get filled because of the value of their buff. Unless you run a 12man raid and had to pick the 12 best unique buffs out of the 13 options available. Any duplication of a unique buff over the DKs one is a waste.

Examle:
Raids are 20man, we have 13 classes, so long as DKs are not utter garbage there will always be a preference to bring at least one DK for the 5% leech over bringing a 2nd or 3rd of any other class that is already covered. Warlocks bring 5% spell dmg, which is great but would you take 2 of them (duplicating the buff you have already) or take 1 lock and 1 DK (so you have both buffs) - if dps output was identical or close?

[Deleted]

We arent talking about stackable buffs, i never even mentioned them, some random DK in this post did, thats irrelevant cause its stupid and no logical player would consider that as a possibility.

My post was about the DPS hungry majority of bads, regardless of class that do not actually know the game, or follow logic, or follow proper raid compositions.

To the majority of the game DPS=Everything.

Paladins give armor, which according to the few changes from the Blizzcon beta, they are going back to the root of Armor = Reduction by removing most reduction abilities and converting them into armor increase which is very relevant.

Stamina is stamina but even so, Paladin/Priest isnt any different to what i am describing.

But Leech can be non-relevant after awhile.

TLDR: Community is retarded DPS whores, classes that dont provide one will face issues with the mentality of WoW of the last 6 years, not talking about world firsts guilds etc, talking about the majority of bads.

Yes but this is only a "problem" when you are fighting the dummy right? I mean in every raid or dungeon you have the same buffs as them? And if everyone has the buff, its pretty much equal right