[Megathread] Star Citizen

[masterhorus8]

In reverse to the hater rhetoric, if you guys are so sure about the outcome and quality of Star Citizen why do you spend so much time arguing with people who cannot affect that in any way at all?

Same reason why anyone argues about anything on the internet:

*Note: I'm not saying either side is wrong. Unless they're using misinformation

EDIT: Not to mention...y'know...this is a FORUM.

[MrAnderson]

No...you're throwing mud and you aren't even honest enough to admit it.

Fortunately, most people are intelligent enough to realise that a few specially crafted demos don't make a game, and that a company that is bleeding cash won't stay in business too long unless it takes steps to make money.

Theres absolutely no need to throw mud at you as you are fully covered and proud of it. Like a pig in heaven.

You dont need any kind of special intelect to understand what you are trying to pull, making unsound assumptions and runing them as facts, obfuscating and nitpicking anything possible using hyperbolism and sensacionalism to drive as much negative spin as possible. As ridicule and useless as it is you seem to believe you are doing god's work so the best thing really is just point and laugh.

[Wilian]

Theres absolutely no need to throw mud at you as you are fully covered and proud of it. Like a pig in heaven.

You dont need any kind of special intelect to understand what you are trying to pull, making unsound assumptions and runing them as facts, obfuscating and nitpicking anything possible using hyperbolism and sensacionalism to drive as much negative spin as possible. As ridicule and useless as it is you seem to believe you are doing god's work so the best thing really is just point and laugh.

Since you appear to be expert on shit-flinging, can you perhaps elaborate on the more finer points of the matter. Do you prefer loose shit or perhaps slightly more meaty, with thicker consistence and better texture? How does diarrhea compare to the solid stuff? Have you ever been considering combination of the two, perhaps baking a firm outer shape whilst having surprise within?

[1001]

Same reason why anyone argues about anything on the internet:
*Note: I'm not saying either side is wrong. Unless they're using misinformation

EDIT: Not to mention...y'know...this is a FORUM.

That was meant to be a rhetorical question.

What I find odd about these discourses is seeing people gloss right over any concerns and paint the people voicing them as irrational human beings but they are willing to spend, or support others spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on in game items....

It all seems a bit weird and hypocritical to me

[masterhorus8]

That was meant to be a rhetorical question.

What I find odd about these discourses is seeing people gloss right over any concerns and paint the people voicing them as irrational human beings but they are willing to spend, or support others spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on in game items....

It all seems a bit weird and hypocritical to me

I can't tell when anyone on mmoc is being sarcastic anymore. The politics subforum broke me.

[MrAnderson]

Since you appear to be expert on shit-flinging, can you perhaps elaborate on the more finer points of the matter. Do you prefer loose shit or perhaps slightly more meaty, with thicker consistence and better texture? How does diarrhea compare to the solid stuff? Have you ever been considering combination of the two, perhaps baking a firm outer shape whilst having surprise within?

Just because you tasted it and enjoy it dont expect others to join. There are special foruns you can join for 10$ that love that stuff though, Im sure Kytfr can help you with directions.

[kenn9530]

SWTOR took five years to develop.
Warcraft took four
Archeage took two
Everquest took three
Dark Age of Camelot took two

SC is nothing like these MMOs, these are just copies of copies with different artwork so no real challenge. It still stuns me how you can even compare studios will fully manned teams to a game that has to build a game studio up from scratch.

And dont even mention NMS, all that took was a little artwork and a code than most of the work to randomise things while everything still looks the same.

SC is 5 years in development since the studio even opened up let alone fully manned.

The tech was not even made for a game like star citizen so everything has to be done from scratch, you keep spouting out nonsense and comparing other games that has no relation or comparison, elite dangerous is not even in the ball park of what star citizen will be.

This game is incorporating as many aspects as possible for a true MMO experience, just the ships alone are more complex than making entire dungeons/areas in a standard MMO type.

We just have to wait to see how the end game result is. Once 3.0 is released to the public we can at least begin to see the shape of things to come, performance is irrelevant until the game is in a more complete state.

[KyrtF]

Theres absolutely no need to throw mud at you as you are fully covered and proud of it. Like a pig in heaven.

You dont need any kind of special intelect to understand what you are trying to pull. As ridicule and useless as it is you seem to trully believe in it deeply so the best is just let time do it's thing.

Which of these are the half truths I am peddling...

Star Citizen is years behind schedule
Star Citizen is currently in a pre-Alpha state
Star Citizen income is down
Star Citizen interest...as measured by, for example, Google searches...is down
Chris Roberts incompetence wasted millions and years of development because he didn't keep third parties up to speed on engine changes
Chris Roberts incompetence in project management is showing by his continued and massive underestimations of the costs, time and manpower required to meet his milestones
Chris Roberts incompetence as a software developer is shown by his inability to work to industrial best practice
The engine isn't finished
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to implement viable netcode
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to even start development of critical core technologies such as server meshing
CIG is developing Beta content before Alpha functionality even though the engine is not finished
CIGs development practises are increasing costs, complexity and the time necessary to create the game and so inviting bugs and performance issues
CIG are already having to rework game assets
CIG are making promises on features such as FOIP they cannot possibly be certain they'll be able to implement because the core underlying technologies haven't been implemented or, in some cases, even started
The demo at GC17 was a shambles
The demo at CC17 showed no gameplay and included aspects we won't be able to do

Lets just leave it there for now. You don't seem to have any answer to any of these, or other issues, other than to insinuate I hate the project and want to see it fail.

Even if that were true...and it isn't...how would that make anything in the above list untrue?

I just don't know if you get paid to blindly support CIG or if you really are a "True Believer"

[Mister K]

If you commited to this game with your hard earned money and expected a fairly quick release, you are deluded.

CIG has made ONE big mistake and its the reason why you are all whining here (instead of official forums, its not criticism, its pure whining). The mistake being changing from the original single player/space sim into a fully fledged MMO with tons of features and before done mechanics. Not only that, this game will need tons of content.

Expected release date, 3-4 years.

PS:

We all know about the shitty delays, bugs, performance issues, lack of content, money spent on questionable areas (the Social Media daily updates) etc...

However, I have spent around £150GBP on this game. For me, I know I will get my times/moneys worth. Yall spend money on BF1, Destiny 2, half of it and play it for a good month or two before chucking it in the bin.... Surely ul get your monies worth with SC?

[KyrtF]

SC is nothing like these MMOs, these are just copies of copies with different artwork so no real challenge.

SC is 5 years in development since the studio even opened up let alone fully manned.

CIG was fully manned in 2011 and arguing that it isn't incompetent because it is incompetent doesn't really help.

The tech was not even made for a game like star citizen so everything has to be done from scratch, you keep spouting out nonsense and comparing other games that has no relation or comparison, elite dangerous is not even in the ball park of what star citizen will be.

This game is incorporating as many aspects as possible for a true MMO experience, just the ships alone are more complex than making entire dungeons/areas in a standard MMO type.

We just have to wait to see how the end game result is. Once 3.0 is released to the public we can at least begin to see the shape of things to come, performance is irrelevant until the game is in a more complete state.

So....you are arguing that we should overlook CIGs glacially slow progress because they chose to have 50 people modify an engine over six years (and counting) instead of developing an engine from scratch...something teams of 5 people have managed to do in two years.

CIG are already starting to redo game assets. And that is before they implement the netcode, server meshes and other technologies which will require further reworking.

And the tech was available. There is NOTHING StarCitizen is doing now that could not have been done in 2011. They had AI in 2011. They had procedural generation of planets and cities in 2011. They had space combat and FPS in 2011. They had RaaT in 2011. They even had serialised variables in 2011 and we all know how important those are for game development.

Nothing had to be "created" ftom scratch. All that was really lacking was the will to create a game that included "everything"....because a game that included "everything" could never be good at "everything".

[Mister K]

Which of these are the half truths I am peddling...

Star Citizen is years behind schedule
Star Citizen is currently in a pre-Alpha state
Star Citizen income is down
Star Citizen interest...as meaduref by, for example, Google searches...is down
Chris Roberts incompetence wasted millions and years of development because he didn't kerp third parties up to speed on engine changes
Chris Roberts incompetence in project management is showing by his continued and massive underestimations of the costs, time and manpower required to meet his milestones
Chris Roberts incompetence as a software developer is showing by his inability to work to industrial best practice
The engine isn't finished
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to implement viable netcode
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to even start development of critical core technologies such as server meshing
CIG is developing Beta content before Alpha functionality even though the engine is not finished
CIGs development practises are increasing costs, complexity and the time necessary to create the game and so inviting bugs and performance issues
CIG are already having to rework game assets
CIG are making promises on features such as FOIP they cannot possibly be certain they'll be able to implement because the core underlying technologies haven't been implemented.
The demo at GC17 was a shambles
The demo at CC17 showed no gameplay and included aspects we won't be able to do

Lets just leave it there for now. You don't seem to have any answer to any of these, or other issues, other than to insinuate I hate the project and want to see it fail.

Even if that were true...and it isn't...how would that make anything in the above list untrue?

I just don't know if you get paid to blindly support CIG or if you really are a "True Believer"

1) Is it? How? From original objective yes, however that objective change when CR wanted to develop an MMO instead of just squadron 42. From time when they started the MMO process, no its actually fairly normal.
2) No, it's in Alpha state.
3) No shit if it would be, however how do you know? All you have is strech goals charts, that's it.
4) There is no marketing campaigns, just Social Media updates. Also, you got access to their Google Analytics? How else could you monitor their search trends on Google, I would like to know this one.
5) Yep, if the vision was clear from the start, we would be most likely 1-2 years away from release instead of 3-4.
6) He does not need to be a Software developer, just like Steve Jobs was not a hardware engineer or software developer either. However his execution of business dicision and leadership as well as vision for the future of company are an important factor...
7) No, it never will be. Game Engines are in a constant development process. In Star Citizen however, the multiple side of things needs major work.
8) You have access to their internal files? How do you know that the netcode is not severely polished and to be released in 3.X?
9) The mesh location instances scale in size depending on player density in that area. The tightest packed you could get players is their characters all huddled together, so if each server can take say 20 players, then the meshes need to be able to scale down to around a 5m square. It's obviously happening in 3d, but that's the idea. If they do it right, it should scale infinitely*. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeZtqoydXpc


10) Yep, by increasing the complexity and spending time on the minutes of details its causing delays, higher expenditures all followed by additional bugs to fix.
11) Yep taking a 180 and making an MMO instead of what was originally planned, yeh that's what you get.
12) FOIP tech should be put on hold until release of the game.
13) GC17 yes it was, it was just a rehash. No pleasing you, demoing an Alpha game while the team is working hard on internals and getting ready for CC, that is an excuse, of course but a valid one.
14) What, you nitpicking not being able to fly inside a city and being an utter dick**** ramming into things? We will most likely able to fly through the city, but not like that, probably auto-controlled via rails or in our own instance...

[Afrospinach]

CIG has made ONE big mistake and its the reason why you are all whining here (instead of official forums, its not criticism, its pure whining). The mistake being changing from the original single player/space sim into a fully fledged MMO with tons of features and before done mechanics. Not only that, this game will need tons of content.

Well they have SQ42. IMO whatever it takes, they need to release that ASAP.

Unfortunately this has George Broussard written all over it. He was the producer of Duke nukem forever and at some point he decided to make the game to end all games with such absurd features as terminals in game that could connect to the actual internet, multiple engine changes... sound awfully familiar?

I understand how SC got here with it's exploding budget but it kind of needs to stop. There could always be a star citizen 2.

[KyrtF]

If you commited to this game with your hard earned money and expected a fairly quick release, you are deluded.

CIG has made ONE big mistake and its the reason why you are all whining here (instead of official forums, its not criticism, its pure whining). The mistake being changing from the original single player/space sim into a fully fledged MMO with tons of features and before done mechanics. Not only that, this game will need tons of content.

Expected release date, 3-4 years.

PS:

We all know about the shitty delays, bugs, performance issues, lack of content, money spent on questionable areas (the Social Media daily updates) etc...

However, I have spent around £150GBP on this game. For me, I know I will get my times/moneys worth. Yall spend money on BF1, Destiny 2, half of it and play it for a good month or two before chucking it in the bin.... Surely ul get your monies worth with SC?

You spend £150 on SC, a game that will likely cost about £50 on launch, and have the fun of a few missions done in 30 minutes. Sure..it may be better when it's launched....but we don't know if it will be launched, we don't know when, we don't know what will be included, what it will offer, if it will be fun or what the gameplay will be like.

£50 on Destiny 2 gets you a game with a fairly strong single player campaign and a multiplayer experience that can last for months if you like it.

[MrAnderson]

Which of these are the half truths I am peddling...

Star Citizen is years behind schedule
Star Citizen is currently in a pre-Alpha state
Star Citizen income is down
Star Citizen interest...as meaduref by, for example, Google searches...is down
Chris Roberts incompetence wasted millions and years of development because he didn't kerp third parties up to speed on engine changes
Chris Roberts incompetence in project management is showing by his continued and massive underestimations of the costs, time and manpower required to meet his milestones
Chris Roberts incompetence as a software developer is showing by his inability to work to industrial best practice
The engine isn't finished
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to implement viable netcode
CIG is developing an MMO but has yet to even start development of critical core technologies such as server meshing
CIG is developing Beta content before Alpha functionality even though the engine is not finished
CIGs development practises are increasing costs, complexity and the time necessary to create the game and so inviting bugs and performance issues
CIG are already having to rework game assets
CIG are making promises on features such as FOIP they cannot possibly be certain they'll be able to implement because the core underlying technologies haven't been implemented.
The demo at GC17 was a shambles
The demo at CC17 showed no gameplay and included aspects we won't be able to do

Lets just leave it there for now. You don't seem to have any answer to any of these, or other issues, other than to insinuate I hate the project and want to see it fail.

Even if that were true...and it isn't...how would that make anything in the above list untrue?

I just don't know if you get paid to blindly support CIG or if you really are a "True Believer"

Besides all the bullshit spread there like butter on a burned toast...

The thing with you and the rest of the haters is that they seem to have such a hard on fixation to find "wrongs" with Star Citizen that it almost looks like it's a fetish by now.

Always trying to finding new ways and angles to attack it, whatever it takes, nevermind who or what is attacked, anything goes.
Ignoring the world around them and losing any perspective that it's a video game this is about, blind by hatred.

And then they ask why people would call them "haters" or "deluded" or ".

You guys seem so possessed and fixated with seeing CIG burn and attacking Chris Roberts, Sandi Gardiner, Ben Lesnick, Disco Lando and whatever CIG staff that has called your bullshit that you really lost the perspective of what you are actually doing or even trying to achieve.

Someday, when you look back and realise you wasted your time on a useless crusade, abdicating of time with your children, parents, wives or girlfriends over something you have 0 control off and that ultimately is just virtual fun you are in for a treat.

That's the 2nd best thing about Start Citizen ongoing success tbh, besides the awesome space game to play in groundbreaking fidelity and scope we have human beings realising what's the true meaning of life, by playing Squadron 42.

[KyrtF]

1) Is it? How? From original objective yes, however that objective change when CR wanted to develop an MMO instead of just squadron 42. From time when they started the MMO process, no its actually fairly normal.

No...it isn't. And it is still years behind schedule.

2) No, it's in Alpha state.

The engine isn't complete and it's not feature complete. Thst is what the industry calls pre-Alpha. CIG are working TOWARDS an Alpha build but they don't have one yet. They are at least a year away from an Alpha build. And then they need to work on a Beta build.

And THEN....and not before...is when they should be adding much of the content such as ships and missions and planets. You can't even say they're getting a head start; one of the reasons assets like that are created in Beta is because most developers don't like reworking assets and content that is created too early. You know....the way CIG have already started to do.

3) No shit if it would be, however how do you know? All you have is strech goals charts, that's it.

Haven't you been keeping up to date with their funding charts?

Also, you got access to their Google Analytics? How else could you monitor their search trends on Google, I would like to know this one.

You don't know you can check on search frequencies on Google?

5) Yep, if the vision was clear from the start, we would be most likely 1-2 years away from release instead of 3-4.

That he did not keep third parties up to date is not a matter of vision...but basic competency. Managers ensure teams have the information necessary...and he didn't. As a result, their work was effectively thrown away. That is incompetence.

6) He does not need to be a Software developer, just like Steve Jobs was not a hardware engineer or software developer either. However his execution of business dicision and leadership as well as vision for the future of company are an important factor...

CRs vision of ignoring standard practise in how the game is being developed is costing his company millions of YOUR dollars

7) No, it never will be. Game Engines are in a constant development process. In Star Citizen however, the multiple side of things needs major work.

There is a difference between refining and improving an engine...and adding basic core functionality. CIGs engine lacks core functionality needed for the game.

8) You have access to their internal files? How do you know that the netcode is not severely polished and to be released in 3.X?
9) The mesh location instances scale in size depending on player density in that area. The tightest packed you could get players is their characters all huddled together, so if each server can take say 20 players, then the meshes need to be able to scale down to around a 5m square. It's obviously happening in 3d, but that's the idea. If they do it right, it should scale infinitely*. -

The netcode has been delayed from 3.0 because it isn't finished. If it were finished it would potentially solve several of the performance issues they are experiencing and allow for much bigger more stable instances. It may come in 3.x but it is NOT ready now. It would be a MAJOR addition to the game and worthy of a great deal of hype if it were. If it WERE ready and CIG weren't adding it, that would be one more sign of incompetence.

They still found time to add FOIP. And regardless of how you think server meshes work, CIG have not even started to develop them yet. I don't need access to their internal files to hear what their developers state in their posts and interviews

10) Yep, by increasing the complexity and spending time on the minutes of details its causing delays, higher expenditures all followed by additional bugs to fix.

He estimated 3.0 would take weeks till release. Its now been almost a year....FOUR times longer. That's not a delay caused by competent management.

11) Yep taking a 180 and making an MMO instead of what was originally planned, yeh that's what you get.

Yeah....which does NOT change that he still needed and should have had the engine ready BEFORE he started work on missions, planets, ships and all else.

12) FOIP tech should be put on hold until release of the game.

CIG shouldn't have even started development on it until Beta.

13) GC17 yes it was, it was just a rehash. No pleasing you, demoing an Alpha game while the team is working hard on internals and getting ready for CC, that is an excuse, of course but a valid one.

You don't get it...do you? A competent company would not have shown a pre Alpha to the public but if they did, they'd have ensured only to show the parts that worked. As it was...it was a shambles and poorly produced.

14) What, you nitpicking not being able to fly inside a city and being an utter dick**** ramming into things? We will most likely able to fly through the city, but not like that, probably auto-controlled via rails or in our own instance...

Read what you just wrote.

"Auto controlled via rails". The truth is that demo was staged, didn't make use of current game systems and showed content that even Chris Roberts admitted players would not be able to do and a developer the next day posted the city would be little more than cosmetic. The usual locked doors and so on to ensure you don't enter buildings and a couple of landing zones with a small selection of facilities available.

I'm not disappointed. That's what I expected. But plenty of others were misled which is why CIG had to clarify the situation

- - - Updated - - -

Besides all the bullshit spread there like butter on a burned toast...

The thing with you and the rest of the haters is that they seem to have such a hard on fixation to find "wrongs" with Star Citizen that it almost looks like it's a fetish by now.

Always trying to finding new ways and angles to attack it, whatever it takes, nevermind who or what is attacked, anything goes.
Ignoring the world around them and losing any perspective that it's a video game this is about, blind by hatred.

And then they ask why people would call them "haters" or "deluded" or ".

You guys seem so possessed and fixated with seeing CIG burn and attacking Chris Roberts, Sandi Gardiner, Ben Lesnick, Disco Lando and whatever CIG staff that has called your bullshit that you really lost the perspective of what you are actually doing or even trying to achieve.

Someday, when you look back and realise you wasted your time on a useless crusade, abdicating of time with your children, parents, wives or girlfriends over something you have 0 control off and that ultimately is just virtual fun you are in for a treat.

That's the 2nd best thing about Start Citizen ongoing success tbh, besides the awesome space game to play in groundbreaking fidelity and scope we have human beings realising what's the true meaning of life, by playing Squadron 42.

And a lot of words but still nothing that answers any of the points or problems raised by SCs development.

I'll ask you again...even assuming I am a hater (and I'm not), how does that make anything I have said false?

[MrAnderson]

And a lot of words but still nothing that answers any of the points or problems raised by SCs development.

I'll ask you again...even assuming I am a hater (and I'm not), how does that make anything I have said false?

Star Citizen is a game in development like many others are and that's all there is to it.

I fail to see any actual pertinent points or problems raised at all so there's nothing to answer really.

This fetish of yours of fabricating drama and bullshit out of nothing and then try to ping-pong it ad nausea in every corner of the web when people just want to know how's the game going is something that people that are in it for the gaming pleasure just don't give a fuck.

Nobody cares about your frustrations with CIG, Chris Roberts or Star Citizen or any other cup of water that you insist in turning into a negative storm of fluff.

When you finally get your heads out of smart's ass and accept that this is just a game in development and leave the all the personal bias, all the fabricated bullshit drama behind and understand how simple that is you might go somewhere in terms of having an actual discussion about the game.

Until then...go ahead and push all the negative shenanigans you crave for, knock yourself out really, it's useless but it's also your life's choice.

Now excuse me but I have a party to attend.

[kenn9530]

CIG was fully manned in 2011 and arguing that it isn't incompetent because it is incompetent doesn't really help.

So your telling me that CiG had 400 plus personell and studios between LA,uk and germany before they even started the kickstarter in Oct 2012, i mean thats a fairly large financial strain before you even start progress on the game, if they have that sort of money at the start before a kickstarter then you should stop the discussions on not having money to complete the game.

Your statement above is a complete lie, it took a few years before they got the personnel they currently have.

Fact of the matter is, even a studio with a full roster of personel from the beginning would have a hard time creating this game.

[nomorepriest]

Remember when the first post was made over 5 years ago?

This is going places.

[Lucetia]

After reading some of the comments in the thread and reports I want to remind everyone to please have a civil conversation. We do not need to resort to any sort of name calling or anything negative towards one or another. It's understandable there will always be some people passionate about the topic on the positive spectrum while there are others who are passionate on the other end of the spectrum. With that said we do need to keep in mind the forum rules and respect towards one another.

Any post after this that can't handle following the forum rules can be infracted so considering this your heads up warning.

[Majestic12]

“Nobody”… considering that you keep replying to every post he makes in such a warmth way, I’d say you will have already have trouble convincing anyone that you alone don’t care about it, let alone “everybody”.

MrAnderson keeps saying those things. He also says that nothing will stop SC and that the game will speak for itself. If he really believed what he was saying, he wouldn't bother posting. He's only here to try to convince himself and others. And insult everybody else.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would they keep you from refunding? The sooner disgruntled backers are out of the project the better for CIG and the community. The less people with multiple ship's out of the game the better for everyone.

You were never part of the evocati and you never will be

I didn't praised nothing. you must be mistaking me with someone else.

And yes 60+ people test did go well in the Evocati. 60 people + 60 ship's btw.

Doesn't matter who buy's packages, it's money in CIG pocket either way.

Thanks for supporting the making of space sims anyway.

Hmm.. that's easy to explain actually. From a business perspective, the marketing department has a professional duty to keep as much cash in the project as possible.

Getting a refund isn't easy or a Quick process, mainly because:

1. CIG support is overloaded with tickets.
2. When they do get around to respond, you're often given a copy-paste message of them a: Trying to convince you of progress and b: Saying you're no longer eligible for a refund because you've agreed to their new TOS.
3. You need to remind them that they can't override EU/AUS law (or wherever you live) and as such they're forced to budge eventually.

But from a business perspective, they want to keep the money, and as such it's nothing strange what they are doing. It's important to point out that they do have economic incentive to battle whatever refund requests that come in.

CIG don't want to go to court for something so small, especially when they can't win. So these cases always end in CIG refunding and closing the account.