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  1. #21
    Sylvanas' goal? What does she want?
    "Death to the living", obviously.

  2. #22
    She wants to do what every being wants to do, populate. Undead aren't evil they just want to make more of themselves. For that they need your body. They want to do dirty things with it.

  3. #23
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Indeed... Eyir could have and should have demolished her, the only reason she didn't is bad writing and plot armor.
    The entire arc between her and Genn was completely pointless. It could have not happened and the story would be exactly the same as it is now.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "a battle we have longed for" clearly means "More human corpses" yes. Obviously. That's ridiculous.

    And yeah. Genn knew or had some inkling she was going to go get the power of the Val'kyr. That's got no impact on his decision to track down and attempt to kill her against Anduin's explicit orders. Or did you think the bombardment and subsequent sinking of the Forsaken fleet was just his way of saying "You stop that. I'mma get ya. Rawr. uwu"?

    And the Horde doesn't need a bigger Military to threaten War. War is the last thing Anduin wants, because his whole goal is peace. Even if she knows she'd risk losing a war, she'd be putting herself in the sympathetic light of "He attacked a foreign power and slaughtered innocent soldiers" so she can manipulate things to her advantage. And I'm pretty sure the Dwarves with their codes of honor would be pretty pissed at Anduin if he just handwaved Genn's direct violation of a royal order...

    And yeah. I know attacking Lordaeron is a direct response to Teldrassil burning. That doesn't mean it's not another part of his vengeance. They could've attacked Orgrimmar with the, as noted, superior forces and tech the Alliance has over the Horde rather than fucking with the Undercity. With the Orcs and Trolls and Tauren and Goblins taken down, the remaining factions of the Horde are piddly shit by comparison.

    Lordaeron's a more strategic placement? Meh, kinda. Orgrimmar is the heart of the Horde. It makes more sense to destroy it than a far-flung estate on the other side of the world which, as noted, is much maligned even by the forces -of- the Horde.

    Nah. Logic dictates the battle she and Blightcaller have "Longed For" is Genn. His betrayal of Lordaeron at the start of the Third War, literally walling himself off from his military allies, is a big part of why Lordaeron fell without the troop support of Gilneas. And, of course, the shattering of the Lantern was just another issue. He's the reason they're both dead, or at least -part- of the reason, since Gilneas's involvement in the war would've changed so many, many, things.

    Genn's going to point Anduin to Lordaeron out of his own personal vendetta against Sylvanas and her people. It's a terrible military target 'cause once it's taken you can't defend it against retaking, hence the buildup of forces in Arathi and Gilneas. There's no way a military advisor like Genn would choose it over attacking the Heart of the Horde without that significant personal bias.
    The old younger Anduin maybe didnt want war, but this new one, i dont know, imagine the legion invading, ur father dies trying to protect his allies after being "betrayed", he becomes a paladin, in the comics he even seem to drop dead a dreadlord, ill be pretty pissed, and then u have the burn of teldrassil, i think the time of peace is gone a bit in his mind, or maybe he wants peace crushing the horde so nothing oppose the alliance anymore.

  5. #25
    Lol, what sylvanas want has been obvious so many years.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVBlackwolfVv View Post
    The old younger Anduin maybe didnt want war, but this new one, i dont know, imagine the legion invading, ur father dies trying to protect his allies after being "betrayed", he becomes a paladin, in the comics he even seem to drop dead a dreadlord, ill be pretty pissed, and then u have the burn of teldrassil, i think the time of peace is gone a bit in his mind, or maybe he wants peace crushing the horde so nothing oppose the alliance anymore.
    Maybe... maybe. But he's still the closest leader to wanting Peace on the Alliance's side. Jaina and Genn pushing for war and using his father's death as an emotional lever would probably push him over to it, but even under the mask he discarded, holding his father's sword, he was a Priest of the Light. It given the option to forge a lasting peace, I think he'd leap on it.

  7. #27
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "a battle we have longed for" clearly means "More human corpses" yes. Obviously. That's ridiculous.
    Not when it means she gains more power in the end. She doesn't give a shit about the rest of the Horde, she would gladly sacrifice them to gain more of "her people".

    Against Anduin's explicit orders.
    Genn's direct violation of a royal order...
    IIRC his orders were to not engage her unless deemed necessary, which, in light of the intel received, he obviously deemed it was necessary, and I would honestly agree... She is not sane, and enslaving a force as powerful as the Valkyr is not something we should just let her do.

    And yeah. I know attacking Lordaeron is a direct response to Teldrassil burning. That doesn't mean it's not another part of his vengeance. They could've attacked Orgrimmar with the, as noted, superior forces and tech the Alliance has over the Horde rather than fucking with the Undercity. With the Orcs and Trolls and Tauren and Goblins taken down, the remaining factions of the Horde are piddly shit by comparison.
    If sylvanas was the one responsible, and her standing infront of the tree as it burns seems pretty likely, they would want to go straight to UC and fuck her up specifically.

    Also, you take out the weaker ones first, the Forsaken are isolated, low in number, and easier to get to, going after them first is logical, rather than attacking the larger forces and having the forsaken show up to reinforce them, take the forsaken out first. As the smaller, easier to destroy force, they would be far more liely to succeed in destroying them before reinforcements could arrive, with far less losses on the Alliance side than if they engaged on Kalimdor first.

    Lordaeron's a more strategic placement? Meh, kinda. Orgrimmar is the heart of the Horde. It makes more sense to destroy it than a far-flung estate on the other side of the world which, as noted, is much maligned even by the forces -of- the Horde
    It's the Horde's only real seat of power on the Alliance's home continent, that alone makes it a prime target.

    His betrayal of Lordaeron at the start of the Third War, literally walling himself off from his military allies, is a big part of why Lordaeron fell without the troop support of Gilneas.
    He walled himself off after the second war, before the third even started, over a disagreement on how to handle the Orcs and the Internment camps.


    Genn's going to point Anduin to Lordaeron out of his own personal vendetta against Sylvanas and her people. It's a terrible military target 'cause once it's taken you can't defend it against retaking, hence the buildup of forces in Arathi and Gilneas. There's no way a military advisor like Genn would choose it over attacking the Heart of the Horde without that significant personal bias.
    Except for the fact that it's isolated, closer than anything else, and easy to demolish before reinforcements can arrive, resulting in most of one of the Horde's races being out of the big war before it even starts.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-11-10 at 08:52 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Distance doesn't matter when you've got mages who can portal entire armies across the world. :P

    And if she's in Lordaeron it becomes even more important to strike at Orgrimmar, while her forces are away, to decimate it before she can arrive with her piddly little forsaken army.

    We could argue all day. But the central conceit "She wants corpses so she's invading Stormwind" doesn't fit the narrative of the book or the game to this point. Attacking Stormwind is a good way to get her people flattened, and she knew as much when she was all "We shouldn't manabomb Theramore 'cause they'll crush Lordaeron!" so what has changed soooooo drastically that she's going to invade the seat of the entire Alliance?

    The answers isn't "Human Corpses".

  9. #29
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    She wants forsaken to be remembered. That's also the reason she is not that deep into her warchief-position.

  10. #30
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Distance doesn't matter when you've got mages who can portal entire armies across the world. :P
    which in lore basically never actually happens, or no one would have fleets.
    And if she's in Lordaeron it becomes even more important to strike at Orgrimmar, while her forces are away, to decimate it before she can arrive with her piddly little forsaken army.
    except they wouldn't, because Orgrimmar is the most heavily defended, and most populated horde city, also the seat of it's primary military force... They would likely be able to hold the Alliance off long enough for reinforcements to arrive, and the Alliance would lose far more people in a fight for Orgrimmar.

    Lordaeron is an easy target to sack, and the leader of the Horde, another prime target, was there. Taking her out could end the war immediately with minimal losses, and even if they didn't kill her, taking out the forsaken with minimal losses(compared to trying to take Orgrimmar) eliminates the Forsaken as a threat before the actual war with the Horde even starts... The Horde essentially start that war down an entire race in forces, while the Alliance still have basically their entire force.

    That is sound strategy, going for Org first is not.
    We could argue all day. But the central conceit "She wants corpses so she's invading Stormwind" doesn't fit the narrative of the book or the game to this point.
    Again, she doesn't give a damn about the rest of the Horde, all the orcs and Trolls and Tauren could die in a fire if it meant she got more of "her people".

    Attacking Stormwind is a good way to get her people flattened and she knew as much when she was all "We shouldn't manabomb Theramore 'cause they'll crush Lordaeron!"
    she says herself that she only disagreed with the timing of bombing Theramore, so obviously, the timing has changed in her favor.

    so what has changed soooooo drastically that she's going to invade the seat of the entire Alliance?
    we'll find out in the book.

    If it was a good way to get her forces flattened, she would think the same now when trying to invade it, obviously she is emboldened by something. And obviously Anduin isn't willing to give up Greymane, since they both marched on Lordaeron together. Burning the tree was just as much a threat of war as marching on SW, and Anduin didn't pussy out.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-11-10 at 09:08 PM.
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  11. #31
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  12. #32
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    That's rather my point, that Anduin doesn't give up Greymane.

    What I think is going to happen is Sylvanas marches on Stormwind for Greymane but knows that one of three things will happen.

    1) Anduin gives her Genn weakening his position with the other Alliance leaders and she gets to kill Greymane. A double win for her!
    2) Anduin refuses, and the Alliance leaders see Anduin as being less than honorable before she's either forced to retreat or her armies are destroyed. A loss, but she gets to be petty.
    3) Anduin Compromises, and the Horde takes Gilneas instead of Greymane, getting a fortified dock and a big middle finger at Greymane, with Greymane and Anduin getting a wedge between them that can be driven further at a later date.

    2 out of 3 outcomes work in her favor. Seems like a boon.

    I kind of expect Anduin to settle on the third, giving up land rather than lives would fit his personality up to this point. But then comes the burning of Tel'drassil, and we don't know for sure how that's going to go down, only that the Alliance will blame the Horde. With that in play, the march on Lordaeron, and Gilneas by proxy since it'll become a staging point, becomes not only a direct retaliation against Sylvanas for Greymane's purposes, but for Anduin's. Anduin who would likely feel that his hand of peace was immediately bitten would be much more likely to commit to a serious all out war.

    Later it can come out that Sylvanas didn't burn the Tree out of malice (or maybe didn't burn it at all) and by then it's too late, the forces are committed and the strike on Lordaeron itself becomes the Horde's Casus Belli.

    Everyone loses! But at least it makes more sense in the narrative than "Sylvanas decides to commit genocide outta nowhere against a vastly superior force"

  13. #33
    I think Alliance will recover Gilneas, if u see in the trailer of battle for azeroth the line of trable parts from there to kul-tiras.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    That's rather my point, that Anduin doesn't give up Greymane.

    What I think is going to happen is Sylvanas marches on Stormwind for Greymane but knows that one of three things will happen.

    1) Anduin gives her Genn weakening his position with the other Alliance leaders and she gets to kill Greymane. A double win for her!
    2) Anduin refuses, and the Alliance leaders see Anduin as being less than honorable before she's either forced to retreat or her armies are destroyed. A loss, but she gets to be petty.
    3) Anduin Compromises, and the Horde takes Gilneas instead of Greymane, getting a fortified dock and a big middle finger at Greymane, with Greymane and Anduin getting a wedge between them that can be driven further at a later date.

    2 out of 3 outcomes work in her favor. Seems like a boon.

    I kind of expect Anduin to settle on the third, giving up land rather than lives would fit his personality up to this point. But then comes the burning of Tel'drassil, and we don't know for sure how that's going to go down, only that the Alliance will blame the Horde. With that in play, the march on Lordaeron, and Gilneas by proxy since it'll become a staging point, becomes not only a direct retaliation against Sylvanas for Greymane's purposes, but for Anduin's. Anduin who would likely feel that his hand of peace was immediately bitten would be much more likely to commit to a serious all out war.

    Later it can come out that Sylvanas didn't burn the Tree out of malice (or maybe didn't burn it at all) and by then it's too late, the forces are committed and the strike on Lordaeron itself becomes the Horde's Casus Belli.

    Everyone loses! But at least it makes more sense in the narrative than "Sylvanas decides to commit genocide outta nowhere against a vastly superior force"
    Two things that I think don't fit here. If you read Beyond the Dark Portal, then you'll know that the canon for the royalty is very much the royalty that cannot be touched. The leaders of the first Alliance come together to discuss the fate of King Perenolde, who sold them out to the Horde during the war. And while they are all mad about it and agree something must be done, they cannot outright punish him, because he is a king. You can't touch a king, it sets a precedent and creates unrest among all other royalty, because you might come after them next with true or manufactured resons. A sovereign kind cannot be punished, even if he sells his peers to the Horde. So... punishing Genn for not following orders to the letter is actually completely out of the question and all of them , even the dwarves know this. Muradin was actually part of the discussion in Lordaeron about Perenolde.

    The second is, that her wish for Stormwind has to have been around longer than her wish for revenge on Genn. She did not care for Genns fate prior to Legion. She already had Gilneas and didn't actually go after Genn himself in any shape or form after his son jumped in front of her arrow.
    Her gripe with Genn is recent, her wish for Stormwind seems to have been around for a very long time.

    So, I don't think it's about Genn. At least, not completely. If she can get him, she's going to ofc. But he is not her reason to go for Stormwind.
    I'd say he might be her reason to want to damage Teldrassil, more specifically the Worgen enclave there. If she goes after his people that would hurt him more than killing him. A lot more.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalay View Post
    Two things that I think don't fit here. If you read Beyond the Dark Portal, then you'll know that the canon for the royalty is very much the royalty that cannot be touched. The leaders of the first Alliance come together to discuss the fate of King Perenolde, who sold them out to the Horde during the war. And while they are all mad about it and agree something must be done, they cannot outright punish him, because he is a king. You can't touch a king, it sets a precedent and creates unrest among all other royalty, because you might come after them next with true or manufactured resons. A sovereign kind cannot be punished, even if he sells his peers to the Horde. So... punishing Genn for not following orders to the letter is actually completely out of the question and all of them , even the dwarves know this. Muradin was actually part of the discussion in Lordaeron about Perenolde.

    The second is, that her wish for Stormwind has to have been around longer than her wish for revenge on Genn. She did not care for Genns fate prior to Legion. She already had Gilneas and didn't actually go after Genn himself in any shape or form after his son jumped in front of her arrow.
    Her gripe with Genn is recent, her wish for Stormwind seems to have been around for a very long time.

    So, I don't think it's about Genn. At least, not completely. If she can get him, she's going to ofc. But he is not her reason to go for Stormwind.
    I'd say he might be her reason to want to damage Teldrassil, more specifically the Worgen enclave there. If she goes after his people that would hurt him more than killing him. A lot more.
    I'll buy the whole "Can't punish a King" thing as an undermining of option A and B. But it still makes Option C a significant thing.

    As to her wish on Stormwind: What is it? I'll be honest, I've not read the books for the most part beyond the odd excerpt. But there doesn't seem to be -anything- in her character that says she'd want war against Stormwind, which canonically is the one superpower in the world she shouldn't want to mess with, since the retaliation would be swift and overwhelming.

    And while her beef with Genn isn't old, it's certainly something to be longed over. It's also the only battle I can think of taking her to Stormwind that both she -and- Nathanos long for, since she was speaking with him about it. She didn't say "The battle we've been waiting years for" just the one that they really wanted, and I don't feel like there's much of a longing for Stormwind itself.

    I think it was a rhetorical flourish, rather than a statement of their actual goal. I could be wrong, I recognize that, but... yeah. Longing for a battle against Stormwind itself seems... out of left field.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    I'll buy the whole "Can't punish a King" thing as an undermining of option A and B. But it still makes Option C a significant thing.

    As to her wish on Stormwind: What is it? I'll be honest, I've not read the books for the most part beyond the odd excerpt. But there doesn't seem to be -anything- in her character that says she'd want war against Stormwind, which canonically is the one superpower in the world she shouldn't want to mess with, since the retaliation would be swift and overwhelming.

    And while her beef with Genn isn't old, it's certainly something to be longed over. It's also the only battle I can think of taking her to Stormwind that both she -and- Nathanos long for, since she was speaking with him about it. She didn't say "The battle we've been waiting years for" just the one that they really wanted, and I don't feel like there's much of a longing for Stormwind itself.

    I think it was a rhetorical flourish, rather than a statement of their actual goal. I could be wrong, I recognize that, but... yeah. Longing for a battle against Stormwind itself seems... out of left field.
    I know and I agree, which is why I think there has to be more to it. You don't go up to the gates of Stormwind and expect to take the city just like that. I mean, Nathanos did have some beef with Stormwind, there was a quest in Vanilla where you were sent to kill him specifically, at his old house in the Plaguelands. You needed a raid to take him down. It was kind of strange, because .... one guy specifically in the Plaguelands and he wasn't even from Stormwind, so why would Stormwind care?
    Hm.
    Speculating is fun, but I wish the book was coming out tomorrow!

  17. #37
    She personally fought to defend Undercity.

    I think "right now" she's more concerned with protecting people like her - Undead, those treated like monsters for what was done to them. They didn't choose to be this, but humanity made organizations like the Scarlet Crusade nonetheless to hunt them down and eradicate them. They can't get within ten feet of Stormwind without being cut down where they stand. Even their own families may see them as beasts meant to be put down. All the killing has to stop one way or another.

    But I hope she doesn't go down a dark path. The dark path that says: If everyone died and was raised, it would be like they didn't die, right? If everyone is a monster, then no one is, right? The dark path that says: Maybe, if everyone died, they can all be reunited in death... under her rule. The one true rule... of the Banshee Queen. Like, no, I don't want that for her character.

    Everyone expects her to be evil, and for us to put her down...
    I miss the Sylvanas that protected these refuges and gave them a home.
    I want to see a more compassionate Sylvanas, giving a home to more Undead of the world.
    I liked her when she sang, and shed tears over old memories when looking at lockets.
    It's kind of unfortunate that her position as Warchief prevents her from doing things like this.
    She 'has' to be strong now. It's not really fair to her. She's been through a lot. They all have.

  18. #38
    I think she's going to Stormwind for one corpse to bring back: Arthas

    Making him a puppet and new general for her army would give her 2 things:
    -) a powerful tool against her enemies
    -) the satisfaction to return the favour... the things he did to her

  19. #39
    Sylvanas is not evil. Pay attention to the cinematic.
    "Ours is a cycle of hatred. We have paid the price for sharing this world and we have forgotten what makes us strong.". She's talking about bringing the Horde together as one and make them strong again. She cares about the Horde. Watch the cinematic where the Alliance begins to slaughter Orcs, she looks dismayed and once that immobilized troll gets stabbed by the spear she goes ape-shit which leads into the assault on the tower which her anger causes her to rally the Horde. Look in Saurfang's eyes. He's like "This is who we truly are."
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  20. #40
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Sylvanas is not evil. Pay attention to the cinematic.
    "Ours is a cycle of hatred. We have paid the price for sharing this world and we have forgotten what makes us strong.". She's talking about bringing the Horde together as one and make them strong again. She cares about the Horde. Watch the cinematic where the Alliance begins to slaughter Orcs, she looks dismayed and once that immobilized troll gets stabbed by the spear she goes ape-shit which leads into the assault on the tower which her anger causes her to rally the Horde. Look in Saurfang's eyes. He's like "This is who we truly are."
    That doesn't make her not evil. That just makes her concerned about her soldiers. Evil people can worry about their troops.

    Torture and attempting to enslave Eyir make her evil. The use of humans and dwarves as test subjects for her Plague makes her evil. Using the plague is, arguably, evil in itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    I think she's going to Stormwind for one corpse to bring back: Arthas

    Making him a puppet and new general for her army would give her 2 things:
    -) a powerful tool against her enemies
    -) the satisfaction to return the favour... the things he did to her
    That would be close to something she'd do... but I still don't think she'd be willing to mind-rape him into service like was done to her and the Forsaken.

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