Level Scaling needs to have a single change

[Ferocity]

It's not an illusion at all. You're still leveling up, working towards unlocking talent tiers, towards ability to acquire new level restricted gear, and you're still progressing towards end game.

You gained a level. You gained 10% more HP, but that mob near you also dinged and now deals 10% more damage. You gained 10% more dps, but that mob gained 10% more HP. And we are not speaking about different mobs, we speak about that very same "Kobold Cripple" who spawned near that one tree, who was level 1 but now he is level 60, even though he spawns with very same name and at exactly same spot. Even if you gain 10 levels you won't gain power, because that very same monster will also gain 10 levels. And every new perk you gain is balanced by monster's power boost.

Journey is gone. That's one of reasons why I quitted D3 in RoS - all mobs became max level, low level mats became nigh unobtainable, hardcore characters lost their safe tactics of gaining few more levels above enemies, etc. Fighting totally random enemies in totally random dungeons aka Rifts feels a bit too generic to me.

In level scaled world you can no longer group up a dozen of monsters, who are several levels below you, and AoE them all down, and you can no longer try your character against monster who is several levels above you. World becomes totally generic and worthless, and Sword +1 becomes as good as Sword +101. 1 becomes equal to 101 which totally breaks any incentive to level.

[Lochton]

What are you talking about? Outside of Northrend and Outland, the entire game revolves around the events after the Shattering: 1-60 is Cataclysm content; 80-85 is Cataclysm content. Northrend and Outland, since they're set for events prior to the Shattering, should be completely optional for a new player and/or character. With the introduction of level scaling, due to the lore, a player should BYPASS out-of-date content.

No, a player shouldn't bypass content, nor should the path be lead away from those events either. If you follow by timeline as a leveling experience, TBC and Wrath would still happen before Cata and should. If you want to bypass outdated content, you might as well just spam dungeons or boost a character for money.

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At this point, the story and lore throughout the leveling experience doesn't make much sense. The current expansion really is the 'now' for the entire game. The latest expansion or patch alters old zones as needed.

Moreover, and I realize this is almost heretical to say, but the writing for WoW is absolutely awful. This compounds the already existing problem of 'temporal At this point, another Cataclysm style revamp is sorely needed. It appears they've been quietly working on just that for some time now; I'm expecting the slow introduction of scaled leveling over the course of the next patch(es) and the expansion will also make major changes to much of the old world on a massive scale.

I'd like to see the whole game brought 'current' so that a new player, at level 1, playing for the first time immediately enters Azeroth as it is for the beginning of whatever the current expansion happens to be. Of course, this would require a massive amount of work. Ultimately, I think WoW will either be set aside for a much more modern WoW2 or WoW will undergo some major overhauls during the next couple expansions to bring it in line with more modern gameplay expectations. The NPCs and story will eventually be able to under 'real time' updates. Not sure how this occurs, I'm not a programmer, but they seem the most logical choices from both a gameplay and business standpoint.

Hence leveling experience shouldn't be cut away from the timeline just to appear part of the rest. It would be nice but would be a great waste of resources.

[melodramocracy]

gone. That's one of reasons why I quitted D3 in RoS - all mobs became max level, low level mats became nigh unobtainable, hardcore characters lost their safe tactics of gaining few more levels above enemies, etc. Fighting totally random enemies in totally random dungeons aka Rifts feels a bit too generic to me.

Journey is as prevalent as ever, the way I see it. If anything, it allows for more freedom as a player, because now instead of being forced down a specific path post level 10, the entire rest of the original continents are available to you to pick and choose your path as you see fit. For replay value I'd actually call that a good thing, though I do wonder how they're going to deal with fixed drops from dungeons that were previously level based. If anything, they need to take this one step further and zone scale everything prior up to your current level, so that the effective / relevant game world grows larger as you level instead of smaller. Maybe that will be the follow up step.

This is one thing that GW2 does very correctly. At max level, effectively the whole map is a playground for you, and mats / objectives set back in other low level areas make it so that you want to go back there.

In level scaled world you can no longer group up a dozen of monsters, who are several levels below you, and AoE them all down, and you can no longer try your character against monster who is several levels above you. World becomes totally generic and worthless, and Sword +1 becomes as good as Sword +101. 1 becomes equal to 101 which totally breaks any incentive to level.

This triviality that comes into play with both outleveling mobs and outgearing them is one of the big problems that the game has always needed to fix. It's already a zero risk game... the 100% guaranteed outcome on top of that is why boredom sets in so quickly for players.

I get that people aren't going to like it at first, it seems at least worth trying first.

[Ferocity]

Journey is as prevalent as ever, the way I see it. If anything, it allows for more freedom as a player, because now instead of being forced down a specific path post level 10, the entire rest of the original continents are available to you to pick and choose your path as you see fit. For replay value I'd actually call that a good thing, though I do wonder how they're going to deal with fixed drops from dungeons that were previously level based. If anything, they need to take this one step further and zone scale everything prior up to your current level, so that the effective / relevant game world grows larger as you level instead of smaller. Maybe that will be the follow up step.

So what will be difference in those continents except for cosmetic appearance / quest lore? Quest lore was never a vital part of RPGs just like cosmetics. In non level scaled world you can always make some mini goals for yourself: get enough power to be able to complete such and such quest, get strong enough to revenge that zombie bear who killed you when you were 40 levels below him (yeah, that one WPL bear), get strong enough to be able defend yourself while mining those cool looking mithril nodes, get strong enough to be able to wear this crafted shiny blue breastplate.

Simple sight-seeing becomes very boring very soon and gives no other goal than to hit max level asap to get to real progression (which is also tainted by some recently added ilvl scaling).

This is one thing that GW2 does very correctly. At max level, effectively the whole map is a playground for you, and mats / objectives set back in other low level areas make it so that you want to go back there.

GW2 was never a RPG, it was 3D Action game with some RPG elements. WoW initially was a RPG.

This triviality that comes into play with both outleveling mobs and outgearing them is one of the big problems that the game has always needed to fix. It's already a zero risk game... the 100% guaranteed outcome on top of that is why boredom sets in so quickly for players.

Cool thing about RPGs is that they allow you to choose the way you want to play the game. Want to take it easy? Gain few more levels than needed. Want it be hard? Go to areas where enemies outlevel you. Outleveling/outgearing monsters was never a problem, it was a REWARD (!).

[Nilmur]

I don't know how often it occurs without Heirloom gear but with Heirloom gear you constantly out level the quests your doing with 5 at a time going green. Now with Leveling scaling they will always be yellow and always give relevant gear along with xp based on your level meaning you won't have to deviate your questing course while your waiting for that dungeon your trying to do to proc.

Now about people talking about mobs leveling up with you. Mobs leveling up always lag behind, I don't know what this is based off I don't know if this is based of Gear, XP or Time however Mobs always level at some point between you leveling up and you acquiring your next level.

If non heirloom gear never outlevels quests then the leveling will be Non Heirloom gear will probably level at approximately the same rate however Heirloom gear people will level up MUCH faster then before with Time efficiency being utilised way more. I can't wait to test this out on PTR and get a feel for it.

[Teri]

If non heirloom gear never outlevels quests then the leveling will be Non Heirloom gear will probably level at approximately the same rate however Heirloom gear people will level up MUCH faster then before with Time efficiency being utilised way more. I can't wait to test this out on PTR and get a feel for it.

Xp from kills will indeed be very good again, instead of getting like 50% or less after a few levels over. And less travel time obviously.

So 65% heirlooms will even count for more crazy numbers.

Only thing I don't know how they will handle things are herbs/ores and profession levels/xp. As people can go straight from a Copper Ore vanilla zone to a Saronite ore at 60 in Northrend.

[Metacrias]

No, a player shouldn't bypass content, nor should the path be lead away from those events either. If you follow by timeline as a leveling experience, TBC and Wrath would still happen before Cata and should. If you want to bypass outdated content, you might as well just spam dungeons or boost a character for money.

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Hence leveling experience shouldn't be cut away from the timeline just to appear part of the rest. It would be nice but would be a great waste of resources.

You have to look at this from the perspective of (a) new players - of which Blizzard really needs to attract to maintain WoW and (b) the rest of us who have leveled many toons, many times and now all the zones.

For new players, 120 levels is beyond daunting. I began playing the week Cataclysm was released. I didn't have my first 85 toon (max level then) until the last couple months of the expansion. It was fun leveling the first time, but I missed out on the end-game and therefore much of the expansion. Now you have to level much further, and remember new players don't have heirlooms. Moreover, it is easy to be 'scared away' by the aspect of 120 levels and therefore quit early on. New players do get one boost, but it's too easy to boost the wrong toon.

(Thought: Perhaps those who have a certain number of max levels should get to start new toons at expansion level, or somewhere lvl 60 of later)

As for the rest of us, I think once you have leveled several toons all the way to max level, there is no reason to require a continued full-leveling experience - so long as the player has choice (really, it seems to be more a business decision: this allows Blizzard to charge a ridiculous $25 per server transfer).

[Deleted]

The only change it needs is the ability to opt out of that shit.

Yes, please. While I would not call it shit for everything, I'd really like to be able to opt out of it sometimes.

[Resentless]

60-80 should also include Cataclysm zones!

That way lore could make sense again.
1-60 -> then cataclysm from 60 to 80 along with outland and northrend.

omg yes. please. how do people not understand this. 1-85 should be in the old world with optional outland/northrend if you wanna go there. The only way the story continuity (and this is a fucking rpg) makes sense for new characters is if you can do all the game content from cataclysm onwards. Which includes 1-60.

[Metacrias]

The real conclusion that seems to come from all this is that the leveling experience has become deeply flawed on several levels (gameplay, obstacle to new players, too easy, boring, etc). The elephant in the room is that there are now 120 levels with 7 expansions, the earliest of which feel very dated.

WoW will always need to keep going, whether as a whole new WoW2 or a seriously overhaul of the game engine and game itself over time. If it is the latter, the leveling experience has to be compressed.

How to do that?

Beats me.

[Ferocity]

For new players, 120 levels is beyond daunting.

It is daunting for pseudo-gamers - for people who want to play only the max level toons to grind epics. They would be full of happiness if leveling was removed altogether. Just imagine this, Blizzard announces "leveling is gone" - and you would see a lot of threads which say "finally, well done, long overdue!"

There are many games which reach far beyond lv. 120. It isn't daunting, it is very alluring - "hey, look, we will have a great adventure "

If someone thinks that 120 levels is a lot and who hates leveling experience and wants it be destroyed by level-scaling, he should rethink if RPGs is truly his game genre or maybe he is more into 3D Action games. Level scaling removes the core of RPGs - character progression: there are no "ifs" and "buts".

Just imagine, you would have salary 2,000,000$ a month. However all the prices would also increase by 1,000 times, so bread, which costed 2$, costs 2,000$ now. Would you say that you made some progress? You should be totally devoid of any brains in your head to say so. Level scaling follows the exactly same utter bullsh!t pseudo-logic, Level scaling IS crap. It substitutes character progress by some stinky crappy illusion.

[FertsBlert]

Xp from kills will indeed be very good again, instead of getting like 50% or less after a few levels over. And less travel time obviously.

So 65% heirlooms will even count for more crazy numbers.

Only thing I don't know how they will handle things are herbs/ores and profession levels/xp. As people can go straight from a Copper Ore vanilla zone to a Saronite ore at 60 in Northrend.

Since Legion that doesn't matter at all, none of the early mats are worth anything now that you don't have to level profs through the earlier expansions mats so don't bother with profs at all until cap.

[In Ogres We Trust]

No, a player shouldn't bypass content, nor should the path be lead away from those events either. If you follow by timeline as a leveling experience, TBC and Wrath would still happen before Cata and should. If you want to bypass outdated content, you might as well just spam dungeons or boost a character for money.

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Hence leveling experience shouldn't be cut away from the timeline just to appear part of the rest. It would be nice but would be a great waste of resources.

Any new character STARTS in Cataclysm content, and they should REMAIN in Cataclysm content. The idea that they should force levelers to go through a timeline loop in the story is rather absurd.

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It is daunting for pseudo-gamers - for people who want to play only the max level toons to grind epics. They would be full of happiness if leveling was removed altogether. Just imagine this, Blizzard announces "leveling is gone" - and you would see a lot of threads which say "finally, well done, long overdue!"

There are many games which reach far beyond lv. 120. It isn't daunting, it is very alluring - "hey, look, we will have a great adventure "

If someone thinks that 120 levels is a lot and who hates leveling experience and wants it be destroyed by level-scaling, he should rethink if RPGs is truly his game genre or maybe he is more into 3D Action games. Level scaling removes the core of RPGs - character progression: there are no "ifs" and "buts".

Just imagine, you would have salary 2,000,000$ a month. However all the prices would also increase by 1,000 times, so bread, which costed 2$, costs 2,000$ now. Would you say that you made some progress? You should be totally devoid of any brains in your head to say so. Level scaling follows the exactly same utter bullsh!t pseudo-logic, Level scaling IS crap. It substitutes character progress by some stinky crappy illusion.

To be fair, while I enjoy RPGs, I would like a level squish to go along with the stat squish.

[Kokolums]

I disagree with your premise. Leveling may be boring to you, but that isn't necessarily true for others. I've got a good number of max levels, and I still level new toons on new servers. Many of these toons never make it.

The problem, for me, is that there is two-fold: it does not allow enough choice in terms of where you level and it takes too long.

I'd personally enjoy leveling if I could really sink into a few zones, and vary those zones across toons. I'd love to do 20 levels in MOP and much fewer for Wrath and BC. Others have suggested they just want to be able to keep leveling while going through a zone's entire storyline.

I'm not sure exactly what the right answer is, but I believe they are moving in the right direction.

I really don't think you are going to see any more interest nor enthusiasm for leveling with this change. This strictly caters to people who want leveling made easier so that they get can get on to something else. I think it just breaks leveling more. It certainly doesn't make me want to level characters more and I enjoy leveling. It really just makes it less appealing.

Would raiders enjoy raiding more if they removed complexity and said something like "we're going to streamline raiding so that Tomb, EN, Nighthold, and Antorus all drop the exact same ilvl. That way you have vastly more content to choose from." I think they would hate that change quite a bit. That would be a design change that strictly caters to people who hate raiding, because now they can get their ilvl from several tiers prior. This is what this change effectively does to leveling in that it caters to people who hate leveling.

[RotDog]

To be fair, while I enjoy RPGs, I would like a level squish to go along with the stat squish.

It only makes sense for it to happen eventually. A level number over 100 just seems strange to me, and a bit messy.

[Nnyco]

The mistake was adding world level scaling to begin with. The problem with leveling is that it is boring. By adding level scaling, you streamline the process of leveling and remove a lot of decision-making. It removes complexity. Leveling is easier. That makes it even more boring. This is a typical example of Blizzard failing to understand its product. The people who demand level scaling are the people who generally don't like leveling to begin with and would prefer it removed. They can't ask for that so they keep asking to make it easier and easier until its pointless. Blizzard got duped and actually added it in. Level scaling will solve nothing. The people who hate leveling will simply move the goalposts and demand that Blizzard make leveling even easier. Next you'll see them probably asking for more bonus XP.

how is more choice less decision making and leveling is boring because you skip half the story in every zone right now

[shaunika123]

The mistake was adding world level scaling to begin with. The problem with leveling is that it is boring. By adding level scaling, you streamline the process of leveling and remove a lot of decision-making. It removes complexity. Leveling is easier. That makes it even more boring. This is a typical example of Blizzard failing to understand its product. The people who demand level scaling are the people who generally don't like leveling to begin with and would prefer it removed. They can't ask for that so they keep asking to make it easier and easier until its pointless. Blizzard got duped and actually added it in. Level scaling will solve nothing. The people who hate leveling will simply move the goalposts and demand that Blizzard make leveling even easier. Next you'll see them probably asking for more bonus XP.

you dont seem to understand the point.

I like leveling and level scaling is probably the best thing they coulda done to it.

how is it fun for anyone to go to a quest zone, finish the story halfway through, and then leave for the next one because the mobs are grey?

does me being able to finish a zone's story somehow remove complexity?

is making the decision of "well the mobs are green now, better get to the next zone" so complex that the game is unplayable without it?

that's what makes it boring, finishing the zones and seeing their end will make it less boring, which is what you seem to want.

so what exactly is your problem?

this isnt about making leveling easier, if anything it might make it a tad slower