So did Alliance strike first?

[Honeyprime]

If there is one thing I have learned about Blizzard, things are not always as they seem.

From the pictures that have been shown and things they have said, it does seem that Sylvanas uses piece of Sargeras sword to burn down Teldrassil. Along with the prologue of the book being shown about her talking about Stormwind, it sure implies the Horde started it. But I can't help but think that's not all there is to it, and that new council that has formed in the Undercity has something very sneaky to do with it.

[Kgmck177]

Is that Vereesa to the right of Sylvanas covered in arrows?

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You can more clearly see it's definitely an elf that looks similar to Sylvanas (in overall shape and dress but in "Alliance blue") in this picture.

[cparle87]

LOL, sure.....

First War, Horde started. Second War, Horde started both phases. Horde invades Ashenvale and kills Cenarius so night elves retaliate. Horde attacks Alliance troops attacking Icecrown. Horde invades Ashenvale...again. Horde bombs half of Stonetalon to the ground.

The only times I can ever think of the Alliance attacking first was the forces coming out of Theramore attacking the southern Barrens and Taurajo, and even that was simply to establish an overland supply route between Theramore and the cut-off by Horde naval blockade night elven lands.

[JohnnyMccrum]

it's obviously the old gods, the old gods burned the tree. it's going to become a raid. all of this is fairly blatant.

[Steampunkette]

First War, Horde started. Second War, Horde started both phases. Horde invades Ashenvale and kills Cenarius so night elves retaliate. Horde attacks Alliance troops attacking Icecrown. Horde invades Ashenvale...again. Horde bombs half of Stonetalon to the ground.

The only times I can ever think of the Alliance attacking first was the forces coming out of Theramore attacking the southern Barrens and Taurajo, and even that was simply to establish an overland supply route between Theramore and the cut-off by Horde naval blockade night elven lands.

Daelin Proudmoore going after the Horde in WC3. In the Undercity during the Siege, Varian going after Thrall and literally declaring he'd commit a genocidal war campaign. Genn Greymane in Stormheim, attacking from a hidden vantage point after hunting her down.

I'm sure better Lore Nerds than I could list off the Alliance's offenses. Just because you can't think of any, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also "We're going to slaughter a whole village and firebomb their homes even though they're innocent and not harming anyone, but we're committing this massacre -simply- to build a supply route so that makes it okay."? What the hell?

[Gaaz]

Whatever the case of who started first is, the ending is likely that undead take over Undercity once again, and nelfs plant another tree (or the old one survives and grows again through outer ashes). "It is as clear as enemy's plans after a 3rd mug of ale". (c) General Punk

[cparle87]

Daelin Proudmoore going after the Horde in WC3. In the Undercity during the Siege, Varian going after Thrall and literally declaring he'd commit a genocidal war campaign. Genn Greymane in Stormheim, attacking from a hidden vantage point after hunting her down.

I'm sure better Lore Nerds than I could list off the Alliance's offenses. Just because you can't think of any, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also "We're going to slaughter a whole village and firebomb their homes even though they're innocent and not harming anyone, but we're committing this massacre -simply- to build a supply route so that makes it okay."? What the hell?

Daelin wasn't part of the Alliance. Varimathras' Forsaken hit first. Genn I have to give you, he's nuts. As for Taurajo the commander deliberately left an opening in their lines for the civilians to flee through.

[Heavens Night]

So the expansion begins during the attack on Lordareon, does that mean Teldrassil happens afterwards in-game? I hope Blizzard doesn't stick the Teldrassil burning as a book plot

Quite clearly a troll post especially the click bait title, considering it's already been made very clear from DEV interviews and on this forum over the last week that the attack on Lordareon was response to the burning of Teldrassil.

And this moron is well known for trolling rubbish, infractions included.

[Steampunkette]

Daelin wasn't part of the Alliance. Varimathras' Forsaken hit first. Genn I have to give you, he's nuts. As for Taurajo the commander deliberately left an opening in their lines for the civilians to flee through.

Daelin was a member of the Alliance: Kul'Tiras was sworn to the aid of the human kingdoms. Varimathras and his forsaken were dead when Varian declared war on Thrall and told him he'd exterminate the entire population of Green Skinned Abominations, listing off his Casus Belli as the pain he suffered in the fighting pits.

And yeah. He left an opening in the lines, but he still FIREBOMBED THE CIVILIANS. I'm sure being nice enough to leave a hole in his line meant alllllll of the innocents survived. Yup. Uh huh.

Nah, Cparle. The Alliance has started some shit over the years. So has the Horde. The devs at least -try- to present both as heroes and villains even if sometimes they fall to the Disney Standard too hard.

[cparle87]

Daelin was a member of the Alliance: Kul'Tiras was sworn to the aid of the human kingdoms. Varimathras and his forsaken were dead when Varian declared war on Thrall and told him he'd exterminate the entire population of Green Skinned Abominations, listing off his Casus Belli as the pain he suffered in the fighting pits.

And yeah. He left an opening in the lines, but he still FIREBOMBED THE CIVILIANS. I'm sure being nice enough to leave a hole in his line meant alllllll of the innocents survived. Yup. Uh huh.

Nah, Cparle. The Alliance has started some shit over the years. So has the Horde. The devs at least -try- to present both as heroes and villains even if sometimes they fall to the Disney Standard too hard.

Yeah, you're right. I mixed up Stromgarde and Kul Tiras for a moment. Though in my mind by that point Daelin was kinda like how Garithos was. Cut off from the greater Alliance for months, ignorant of what was going on, and going ahead and doing stuff on his own authority without any knowledge of sanction from the other Alliance leaders.

Did Varian know Varimathras was dead. Did Jaina have a chance to tell him? IIRC the Horde and the Alliance took completely separate routes through Undercity and only encountered each other in the end. Varian very possibly thought Thrall was allied with Varimthras and sanctioned the attack.

I don't remember reading anything about firebombing. Sauce?

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, you're right. I mixed up Stromgarde and Kul Tiras for a moment. Though in my mind by that point Daelin was kinda like how Garithos was. Cut off from the greater Alliance for months, ignorant of what was going on, and going ahead and doing stuff on his own authority without any knowledge of sanction from the other Alliance leaders.

Did Varian know Varimathras was dead. Did Jaina have a chance to tell him? IIRC the Horde and the Alliance took completely separate routes through Undercity and only encountered each other in the end. Varian very possibly thought Thrall was allied with Varimthras and sanctioned the attack.

I don't remember reading anything about firebombing. Sauce?

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=24631/flightmare

"The Alliance has hired in Wildhammer mercenaries to control the skies over the Battlescar. I believe these same gryphon-riders were the ones to firebomb Taurajo during the attack."

[Nyel]

they only just started the entire events of everything possible, in fact horde is literally formed from races alliance tried to genocide, twice in case of blood elves

What? Alliance did defend their territories Orcs wanted to occupy.

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Taking Garrosh down WAS the revenge for Theramore... He did it, they just weren't stupid and condemned the horde when the Horde went "OH EFF NO, he is nuts, we don't condone this" and stopped following them.

You act like the Alliance was the only people who lost a leader that day, Sylvanas and the Horde didn't retreat until their Warchief was already fatally wounded, he was dying, and indeed did die, and the outcome was entirely pointed at the horde at the assault being completely wiped out, which would have in turn led to the Alliance being wiped out if they didn't retreat when faced with the same dilemma(which when they were faced with it, they also retreated).

The Worgens actually DID attack the Forsaken fleet on the way to Stormheim(as seen both in Azsuna and Stormheim), even though they had a common enemy of the Legion at the time, "the Alliance" DID start that altercation. I put it in quotes because it was not the Alliance as a whole, but a single leader; however it is still attributed because that leader remains part of the Alliance, and in fact a trusted advisor to the King.

Garrosh? The trial after which Garrosh could flee to Draenor and start the invasion of the Legion? Garrosh was killed by Thrall though. Alliance got nothing out of it, they helped the Horde and didn't ask for revenge at all.

Oh, Genn attacked the Forsaken on their way to Stormheim? Remember that Sylvanas killed Genn's son Liam?

[elaina]

What does Alex Jones say? False Flag?

[cparle87]

Those wars were started by a different Horde.
Ashenvale wasn't an invasion, it were Orcs chopping wood. If you kill people for chopping wood, YOU are the psychopath. Not the woodcutters.
The Horde had nothing to do with Icecrown either.

Admitting you are blinded by Alliance-loyalty isn't supporting your cause.

God, this kind of childish and pathetic behaviour is exactly why most people hate the Alliance.
Grow up and face reality.

If you want to argue the first two wars weren't the Horde's fault cause it was a different Horde then we can also dismiss Daelin Proudmoore cause he was a member of the old Alliance of Lordaeron that is defunct, not the modern one.

As for Icecrown, here. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front
Even Garrosh was disgusted by the Horde commander's ambush, though more so cause it was an ambush which he considered cowardly than for the fact he attacked Alliance when they were supposed to be focused on the Scourge.

"Admitting I am blinded by Alliance loyalty" "childish" "pathetic"? If you have to attack my personally instead of my statements then I think we're done here. I hope your other 25,000 posts were less rude.

[Deleted]

Have no idea why they would even start war on each other, feels a bit forced imo.

God, this kind of childish and pathetic behaviour is exactly why most people hate the Alliance.
Grow up and face reality.

To be fair, Horde fanboys do the very same thing and is a reason why people on both side hate each other lol

[Darkeon]

It's simply impossible to know with the current information.

We have two events, one of which happens in retaliation to the other. We don't know the motives of said first attack. There's a reason the premise the expansion, at the moment, feels very dumb and all over the place - because we are missing key information.

[Deleted]

You should spend a month in the Lore-section, you'd see exactly what I mean.
It's an endless stream of Alliance-fanfiction desperately trying to paint themselves as the lawful good guys.
The worst part is when they get their anti-Forsaken threads going, claiming Sylvanas is literally Hitler and the worst evil to ever be seen in WoW /s

I do know, but the same fact is many Horde fans trying to paint the Horde in different strokes too.

Though I agree that Alliance is definitely not pure good guys.

[Steampunkette]

I do know, but the same fact is many Horde fans trying to paint the Horde in different strokes too.

Though I agree that Alliance is definitely not pure good guys.

Most Hordies tend to recognize that their side -does- bad shit, but argue that there's good reasons or mitigating factors to that bad shit.

The Allies tend to gloss over or outright deny that their side does anything bad. And argue when someone points out the truth that the mitigating factors make it okay.

It's a pretty important distinction when you're discussing lore with either faction. A Hordie is liable to say "Yes, But" or "Well there was the time when we did (Bad Thing) but there were reasons." while an Ally will say "No! NO! NOOOO! Okay, Kind of, But it was a -GOOD- thing, really, when you think about it!" no matter how dark the act is, or how flimsy the circumstances.

[Cosmic Janitor]

What does Alex Jones say? False Flag?

The frogs are definitely gay this time.

That people are still discussing this is beyond me. The options have been pretty much laid out and unless Blizzard wants to really impress me with a plot twist, there is no way the alliance starts a war as the initial agressor.

[Deleted]

The alliance striked first. The furbolg burned teldrassil and blamed the horde for it. So the alliance got pissed and attacked the horde at Lordean.