Raja Koduri jumps ships to Intel...

[moremana]

Stop dreaming about desktop GPU competition. Intel is not interested in that (at least before they establish something with compute GPUs).

I think your wrong, we will see.

No one really knows, as we all know Intel is not afraid of lawsuits and I dont think anyone with half a brain would pursue one. I do think whatever they do will probably involve AMD. Intel isnt interested in putting AMD out of business. nVidia is the threat to them in the future and now, AMD without Raja, Intel has a firmer grip on AMD.

Dont be surprised if Intel one day owns ATi.

[Evildeffy]

This does not really matter for such huge companies, it is quite obvious that Intel is developing GPU, they pretty much stated this in their Raja statement. Who's gonna stop them?

Ah but they didn't state what type of GPU they'd develop, and you cannot move unless you have official public information and even then you'd need to wait till it's made to sue them.
This is a wait and see game and as big as Intel is ... they don't have an unlimited budget either.
Tangled up in a potentially bad lawsuit may send stocks and shareholders plummeting... even Intel can't hold on forever like that.

It's like Apple, which developed it's own GPU and Samsung which does the same now, lawsuits? 0 fucks given, the pittance they will pay is less than what they will earn/save with this tech.

That depends as Apple will buy the IP 1 way or another, something like EA has done for game studios.
But we'll see regardless what will come out of that.

Heck Intel already has GPU in every CPU the sell and they license all the required stuff from AMD as far as I remember. So what Intel will do is either extend the licensing deal and they can or go rogue like Apple and let lawyers drag this on for gazillion years. Litigation of such things is so painful, expensive and difficult that I don't think anyone has an appetite for that, especially not with Intel which itself licenses a lot of things to the potential plaintiffs.

They actually license it from nVidia for their iGPUs and their iGPUs have different license IPs than dGPUs.
Extending the deal will not work for this and will require a separate licensing deal, Intel has to thread carefully in this regard because (for example) if Intel were to step out of line with their Cross-Licensing deal they nearly fucked up a couple years ago they stand to go back to the Pentium 4 era with their CPUs for example.

The same stuff can happen across multiple "fields" of interest.

(just for your info on the example given above regarding CPUs... Intel licenses multi-core, iGPU, Integrated Memory Controllers and x86-64 technologies from AMD... a couple more but these are the pertinent ones, meaning if Intel dicks around too much they will lose all of it and be forced back into P4 era)

[Gaidax]

Ultimately this does not matter, it's a simple case of what Intel wants and it's obvious that GPU is the future and not really because of "G" and they have to develop that tech or lose big time, because this technology is what will be powering the next big technology advancement we only start hearing about lately.

Whether they will offload that into actual GPU products for plebs? Nobody knows, but if they decide to do so - again - nobody will stop them, certainly not some armchair attorneys on MMO-C.

This is literally do or die kind of thing and everyone is starting to catch on, that's why you see the likes of Apple and Samsung get into this game too and now Intel.

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As a side note, I really think "GPU" needs a new term nowadays, that one is outdated.

[moremana]

I agree on alot of both of your points, just remember, Jim Keller once said.

"Soon dGPUs will be a thing of the past"

[dadev]

Leaving AMD to join Intel, a direct competitor who has purposefully screwed the company he worked for by offering bribes or penalties if they bought AMD products, is generally a dick move. (even though Intel didn't try for graphics division because... well they really didn't have one is beside the point for the most part)

But this has nothing to do with engineering. If he was going to be the head of marketing or pr, then yeah I would think twice in his place. But for engineering?
Intel has been at the front of CPU technologies for the last 3 decades, if your expertise is in making chips (this time GPU obviously) and Intel wants you, I don't see where the problem is. Especially if Intel will give him a team and money to build a new GPU. If he succeeds he'll become a monumental figure (at least within Intel), the opportunity is too good to pass up on just like that.
It will be a dick move if he steals trade secrets (and illegal one too). And there are people that done it before, but let's not accuse a person just because he switches a work place. AMD will be the first ones to verify that no propriety technologies were stolen.
Everything except for stealing trade secrets or patents is a fair game in engineering and especially so in California.

[moremana]

I found this article an interesting read. Real Interesting.

Enjoy, but get some coffee or tea if that's your twist

https://seekingalpha.com/article/412...-nvidia?page=2

EDIT:
Today there is this.

I think I see where Intel is going here. Its a good read if you are unaware of the importance of gpu's in the coming industry. I can usually read between the lines, but it does seem a little confusing. Is he saying that the gpu is becoming more important than the cpu?
@Evildeffy and @Life-Binder

Discuss, we need your knowledge here!

There is also this from Intel.

- - - Updated - - -

Why shouldn't people be able to change a job on their own will? Or why does this have to be a dick move? A job contract is not exactly a catholic marriage.

Maybe the guy just lost belief in the Radeon group? Or was fed up with fighting against (even) upper management? Or maybe just wanted to try out something new, build something from the basics (not really possible to fully reboot architecture in an existing place).

At some point in our lives we just decide that we want to change stuff due to _reasons_.

I agree it shouldn't be so complicated. However, that being said, RTG does have a right to its proprietary technology and RK, unless he developed said technology, should be mindful of his non compete.

I do think Intel is going to delve into dgpu's, whether or not they are worth it will be speculation at this point. He is going to be a asset to Intel for the future of AI and GPUs.

I'm just a little lost why this happened at the same time AMD collaborated with Intel on the merge of igpu's on their chips, unless it is just a "patch" for the time being.

[Evildeffy]

But this has nothing to do with engineering. If he was going to be the head of marketing or pr, then yeah I would think twice in his place. But for engineering?
Intel has been at the front of CPU technologies for the last 3 decades, if your expertise is in making chips (this time GPU obviously) and Intel wants you, I don't see where the problem is. Especially if Intel will give him a team and money to build a new GPU. If he succeeds he'll become a monumental figure (at least within Intel), the opportunity is too good to pass up on just like that.
It will be a dick move if he steals trade secrets (and illegal one too). And there are people that done it before, but let's not accuse a person just because he switches a work place. AMD will be the first ones to verify that no propriety technologies were stolen.
Everything except for stealing trade secrets or patents is a fair game in engineering and especially so in California.

Like I said before it is a matter of personal views and history between companies.

Both AMD and Intel have had successes and failures ranging all the way back since the first 8086 CPU line.
The difference is how Intel has played the game to make sure of it's dominance.

Granted (like I said before again) this is the graphics division but the history is still there.
And AMD obviously valued Radja Koduri a lot and then having it happen for him to switch to their competitor a dick move by him and a bitter pill to swallow for AMD.
I have however not stated he'd "steal trade secrets or use AMD technology", what will happen if he develops a traditional dGPU is a copy of AMD's cards since he was so involved with them, hence why I stated it's entirely possible it'll be a new type of dGPU that isn't the current traditional one.

Whether that's "Fair game" or not is a matter of personal opinion as I've said.

However you shouldn't count Intel's engineering department as separate from the leadership, marketing or PR of Intel.
Intel, as a company in it's entirety, committed those practices ever since the 70s or 80s.
If the situation were reversed we'd all say the exact same thing as AMD being the bad guy, not "AMD's marketing team caused this monopoly!".

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Discuss, we need your knowledge here!

At our current technology level, both hard- and software, the CPU will always remain an important piece of technology since it's design is serial made parallel by addition of CPU cores where GPUs are just meant as parallel monstrosities.

There are some things the GPU simply cannot do as accurately as a CPU can and vice versa.

But in the majority of newer developing technologies, where the CPU and GPU are of course based upon the same principles, the GPU will become a more important part than CPUs in a lot of fields.

Simply put GPU technology has advanced to the point of it being capable of doing many things the CPU can but massively parallel ... those CUDA cores and STREAM processors are basically all tiny CPU-like cores and you can simply see that if you can exploit that amount of power you can simply brute force the living fuck out of things (explained in a very simplistic manner).

Until a PU is released that perfectly blends x86 architecture and it's instruction sets AND perfect software is developed for it's control into a GPU there will always be a separation between the 2.
Though the name would not be CPU or GPU but likely UPU (Universal Processing Unit) or something similar.
But this would mean the design complexity would skyrocket as the CPU does a great deal more than "just compute", in fact should this happen it's highly likely that the entire concept of CPU, Motherboard and RAM will entirely disappear.

In short... a CPU, for the forseeable future, will not be any less important than it is today.. it's just being dropped to the back whilst GPUs are pushed to the front.

[moremana]

Like I said before it is a matter of personal views and history between companies.

Both AMD and Intel have had successes and failures ranging all the way back since the first 8086 CPU line.
The difference is how Intel has played the game to make sure of it's dominance.

Granted (like I said before again) this is the graphics division but the history is still there.
And AMD obviously valued Radja Koduri a lot and then having it happen for him to switch to their competitor a dick move by him and a bitter pill to swallow for AMD.
I have however not stated he'd "steal trade secrets or use AMD technology", what will happen if he develops a traditional dGPU is a copy of AMD's cards since he was so involved with them, hence why I stated it's entirely possible it'll be a new type of dGPU that isn't the current traditional one.

Whether that's "Fair game" or not is a matter of personal opinion as I've said.

However you shouldn't count Intel's engineering department as separate from the leadership, marketing or PR of Intel.
Intel, as a company in it's entirety, committed those practices ever since the 70s or 80s.
If the situation were reversed we'd all say the exact same thing as AMD being the bad guy, not "AMD's marketing team caused this monopoly!".

- - - Updated - - -


At our current technology level, both hard- and software, the CPU will always remain an important piece of technology since it's design is serial made parallel by addition of CPU cores where GPUs are just meant as parallel monstrosities.

There are some things the GPU simply cannot do as accurately as a CPU can and vice versa.

But in the majority of newer developing technologies, where the CPU and GPU are of course based upon the same principles, the GPU will become a more important part than CPUs in a lot of fields.

Simply put GPU technology has advanced to the point of it being capable of doing many things the CPU can but massively parallel ... those CUDA cores and STREAM processors are basically all tiny CPU-like cores and you can simply see that if you can exploit that amount of power you can simply brute force the living fuck out of things (explained in a very simplistic manner).

Until a PU is released that perfectly blends x86 architecture and it's instruction sets AND perfect software is developed for it's control into a GPU there will always be a separation between the 2.
Though the name would not be CPU or GPU but likely UPU (Universal Processing Unit) or something similar.
But this would mean the design complexity would skyrocket as the CPU does a great deal more than "just compute", in fact should this happen it's highly likely that the entire concept of CPU, Motherboard and RAM will entirely disappear.

In short... a CPU, for the forseeable future, will not be any less important than it is today.. it's just being dropped to the back whilst GPUs are pushed to the front.

I see, so in short, the cpu isnt going anywhere anytime soon, and even if it did, there would have to multiple versions of it based on how much compute performance each one had based on user demands. Much more than we have now. Thats if we take out the AI aspect of it. I am curious about all of this. For some reason this has peeked my attention more than when dual core processors were being announced or HT was implemented long ago.

I am curious where this is all going to be in 5-10 and 20 years. Sadly my old ass wont be around when or if a UPU comes to fruition. But then again, Raja's ass is getting up there in age too!

On that note, where do you think this leaves nVidia, cant the delve into the x86 cpu market? or do you see that as a waste of time for them?

[Evildeffy]

I see, so in short, the cpu isnt going anywhere anytime soon, and even if it did, there would have to multiple versions of it based on how much compute performance each one had based on user demands. Much more than we have now. Thats if we take out the AI aspect of it. I am curious about all of this. For some reason this has peeked my attention more than when dual core processors were being announced or HT was implemented long ago.

I am curious where this is all going to be in 5-10 and 20 years. Sadly my old ass wont be around when or if a UPU comes to fruition. But then again, Raja's ass is getting up there in age too!

On that note, where do you think this leaves nVidia, cant the delve into the x86 cpu market? or do you see that as a waste of time for them?

They cannot delve into it at all because it is denied to them.
Intel holds the x86 architecture license which simply means they can't enter that market because do not have the necessary IP to do so.

AMD is in that market because it was first deemed required by the US Government and IBM (even though IBM originally developed x86) where they feared Intel alone was not capable of building and supplying for the demand required.
Thus AMD came into the picture and later a slew of others like VIA.
But they all simply held a license to use it if they produced it themselves.

As of relatively recently due to a MASSIVE blunder by Intel they sued AMD for infringing upon their x86 license which stated only AMD's own fabs are allowed to produce CPUs with that instruction set.
This was when AMD started GlobalFoundries and held a considerable majority stake in it.
Intel claimed AMD was violating it's Cross-Licensing deal because it didn't own GlobalFoundries, which at that time they did.
Intel backed out because if they lost that lawsuit they would have to forfeit the technologies they license from AMD whilst AMD would still be allowed to use x86.
(For your information: Intel licenses some very critical technologies from AMD such as (but not exclusively) Multi-Core, iGPU, IMC and x86-64.)
When Intel realized that fighting this was a lost cause they quickly dropped the lawsuit with a settlement of allowing AMD to use x86 in any production plant they want as long as the technology was kept to AMD itself and wasn't allowed to be given out because if they didn't they'd risk going back to the Pentium 4 era for their CPU division.
Meaning that if AMD were to be bought out by nVidia today in it's entirety and it kept it's name etc. then nVidia could potentially enter the x86 market.

So the only 2 ways that nVidia can come into this market is that Intel gives them a license for it or they buy up AMD.
Intel will not give them an x86 license because they already don't want them in the AI space along and whilst nVidia is big it cannot afford to purchase the entirety of AMD.
Not to mention that even if Intel gave a license to nVidia, they have no x86 experienced engineers and developing a CPU in the times where you'd be fighting giants who've been there for 40 years is ludicrous.

This is why AMD's continued existence in the CPU market is critical.
If AMD were to become bankrupt it's IP assets would be put up for sale and you can bet your sweet ass Intel will be paying everything for the technologies they currently license from AMD making Intel a complete dominant monopoly with the sole rights to all of these technologies... that is if there's not a form of outside intervention.

Simply put ... the i7 you have now and paid 300 USD for ... Intel would be able to charge you 1000 USD for it and there'd be NOTHING you could do about it.

[moremana]

They cannot delve into it at all because it is denied to them.
Intel holds the x86 architecture license which simply means they can't enter that market because do not have the necessary IP to do so.

AMD is in that market because it was first deemed required by the US Government and IBM (even though IBM originally developed x86) where they feared Intel alone was not capable of building and supplying for the demand required.
Thus AMD came into the picture and later a slew of others like VIA.
But they all simply held a license to use it if they produced it themselves.

As of relatively recently due to a MASSIVE blunder by Intel they sued AMD for infringing upon their x86 license which stated only AMD's own fabs are allowed to produce CPUs with that instruction set.
This was when AMD started GlobalFoundries and held a considerable majority stake in it.
Intel claimed AMD was violating it's Cross-Licensing deal because it didn't own GlobalFoundries, which at that time they did.
Intel backed out because if they lost that lawsuit they would have to forfeit the technologies they license from AMD whilst AMD would still be allowed to use x86.
(For your information: Intel licenses some very critical technologies from AMD such as (but not exclusively) Multi-Core, iGPU, IMC and x86-64.)
When Intel realized that fighting this was a lost cause they quickly dropped the lawsuit with a settlement of allowing AMD to use x86 in any production plant they want as long as the technology was kept to AMD itself and wasn't allowed to be given out because if they didn't they'd risk going back to the Pentium 4 era for their CPU division.
Meaning that if AMD were to be bought out by nVidia today in it's entirety and it kept it's name etc. then nVidia could potentially enter the x86 market.

So the only 2 ways that nVidia can come into this market is that Intel gives them a license for it or they buy up AMD.
Intel will not give them an x86 license because they already don't want them in the AI space along and whilst nVidia is big it cannot afford to purchase the entirety of AMD.
Not to mention that even if Intel gave a license to nVidia, they have no x86 experienced engineers and developing a CPU in the times where you'd be fighting giants who've been there for 40 years is ludicrous.

This is why AMD's continued existence in the CPU market is critical.
If AMD were to become bankrupt it's IP assets would be put up for sale and you can bet your sweet ass Intel will be paying everything for the technologies they currently license from AMD making Intel a complete dominant monopoly with the sole rights to all of these technologies... that is if there's not a form of outside intervention.

Simply put ... the i7 you have now and paid 300 USD for ... Intel would be able to charge you 1000 USD for it and there'd be NOTHING you could do about it.

Interesting. I see your point. So unless AMD was willing to sell, nVidia is just out of that picture, even if it became a bidding war. The other question is, the powers to be step in and stop Intel from becoming the monopoly there by making it plausible for nVidia?

Also, another thought, what happened to Cyrix? Is Intel and AMD the only 2 that hold those IPs? None from long ago?

I know its important for AMD to stay in the market for the competition and keeping things on a even keel for us, it just seems to me they are fighting a losing battle. Every time they take two steps forward, they end up taking 3 back.

[Evildeffy]

Interesting. I see your point. So unless AMD was willing to sell, nVidia is just out of that picture, even if it became a bidding war. The other question is, the powers to be step in and stop Intel from becoming the monopoly there by making it plausible for nVidia?

No no, AMD is not allowed to sell. It'd have to be bankruptcy or hostile take over, it's in their agreement.
What you refer to as The Powers That Be... that only works if the company does not naturally bankrupts, such as the whole Intel blackmailing OEMs thing.
If AMD bankrupts because no-one buys from them and they can't directly prove that Intel caused it by malicious means then no-one will intervene.

Also, another thought, what happened to Cyrix? Is Intel and AMD the only 2 that hold those IPs? None from long ago?

Cyrix (or the remains of the company) is currently split between VIA Technologies and AMD already.
And VIA simply does not have enough money to do anything, they were never a real contendor.
Fun fact though it was VIA Technologies who started and popularized the ITX format.

I know its important for AMD to stay in the market for the competition and keeping things on a even keel for us, it just seems to me they are fighting a losing battle. Every time they take two steps forward, they end up taking 3 back.

That's what it seems to us gamers but you do have to realize that they are spread out in more markets than you're aware of.

Having said that the CPU technology was indeed hanging by a thread and Ryzen blasted the door down to a point no-one expected.
This is why Coffee Lake was paper launched because AMD was gaining (and still is) a lot of momentum.

AMD doesn't need the ultimate crown of Ultra Super CPU Saiyan 7 as long as they can offer good performance and a good price to go with it.
Like they are currently doing.

Who knows... Koduri leaving may be a blessing in disguise for another talent to show up and WTFBAMBOOZLE us all.

[BicycleMafioso]

I am not sure what to make of the confusion going on in this thread. The fact that people wander back and forth between companies in this sector is nothing new, and I suspect this was something they all knew of way, way before his work on Vega finished, but he couldn't just walk the minute he was done - it had to see through release.

This kind of recruitment is commonplace. In the Taiwanese based companies, they just walk between them, or so it feels. His vacation was probably absolutely linked to this and both parties (AMD and Raja) knew this.
The Intel+AMD deal? Might be part of this deal, might be the other way around. I personally think it will be an awful deal for AMD in the long run.

The only name that springs to mind where a person has done so before is Jim Keller, but I'm sure it happens very often and via a few more token stops between the straight up transfer.

[Denpepe]

Check this interview out, he does not say much, but he does keep hisoptions open with intel

https://venturebeat.com/2017/11/10/n...er-businesses/

[Evildeffy]

I am not sure what to make of the confusion going on in this thread. The fact that people wander back and forth between companies in this sector is nothing new, and I suspect this was something they all knew of way, way before his work on Vega finished, but he couldn't just walk the minute he was done - it had to see through release.

This kind of recruitment is commonplace. In the Taiwanese based companies, they just walk between them, or so it feels. His vacation was probably absolutely linked to this and both parties (AMD and Raja) knew this.
The Intel+AMD deal? Might be part of this deal, might be the other way around. I personally think it will be an awful deal for AMD in the long run.

The only name that springs to mind where a person has done so before is Jim Keller, but I'm sure it happens very often and via a few more token stops between the straight up transfer.

Jim Keller however never intended to have fixed positions within the times he was present there.
He is an uArch engineer for hire, does his thing and gets the hell out.

Radja was a fixed position and even "leader" of the Radeon Technologies Group.

There's a difference in random people walking in and out with different companies and a leader jumping ship to a "mortal enemy".

That said... you never know what may come of this, it's entirely possible they get a new guy which will drive it into a path which would kick ass.
Or it could spell doom for RTG... all options are possible, I'm interested to see what becomes of this.

[moremana]

I am not sure what to make of the confusion going on in this thread. The fact that people wander back and forth between companies in this sector is nothing new, and I suspect this was something they all knew of way, way before his work on Vega finished, but he couldn't just walk the minute he was done - it had to see through release.

This kind of recruitment is commonplace. In the Taiwanese based companies, they just walk between them, or so it feels. His vacation was probably absolutely linked to this and both parties (AMD and Raja) knew this.
The Intel+AMD deal? Might be part of this deal, might be the other way around. I personally think it will be an awful deal for AMD in the long run.

The only name that springs to mind where a person has done so before is Jim Keller, but I'm sure it happens very often and via a few more token stops between the straight up transfer.

I guess, at least for me the announcement that AMD and Intel were going to finally collaborate and intertwine their cpu/gpus. We all know Intel does not make decent gpus, they work, for what they were intended, but never the way in AMDs igpu.

Then, whoa...Raja walks away from AMD and joins Intel...so I was like wtf? Two huge announcements within days.

I think it was planned, who all is involved we will probably never know. I think AMD was fully aware of Raja intentions and I wouldn't be shocked if he had AMDs blessing.
@Denpepe link to that article clearly nVidia thinks its no big deal, I would agree that nVidia is making huge strides and we don't even know the half of what they are doing.

I think this AMD/Intel collaboration was needed by both camps for the future of them. nVidia is doing very well for not being in the cpu market.
@Evildeffy, all this is starting to make more sense now. This could be a win win for Intel and AMD, CPU manufacturer and GPU manufacturer, between them, the world is wide open. And nVidia is going to be a thorn in both of their sides. Maybe I am putting more into this than whats there.

nVidia is a problem for AMD and Intel for future technology.

[Afrospinach]

I guess, at least for me the announcement that AMD and Intel were going to finally collaborate and intertwine their cpu/gpus. We all know Intel does not make decent gpus, they work, for what they were intended, but never the way in AMDs igpu.

I am so sure when iris first came out it was better than any AMD igpu, maybe even the broadwell igpus which were curiously strong.

[Evildeffy]

I am so sure when iris first came out it was better than any AMD igpu, maybe even the broadwell igpus which were curiously strong.

Nope, Intel's iGPUs, even the Iris Pro could never match the AMD iGPUs.

And Broadwell's high performance was attributed due to the 128MB L4 cache it had, which also made it VERY difficult to overclock.

At best Intel's Irish just managed to tie with the mid to high-end APU iGPUs.

And even then AMD's multimedia acceleration and colour reproduction in said media completely bitchslapped anything Intel had/has.
This is the reason why mITX boards like the ASUS E45M1-I Deluxe are still popular and in high demand.

[moremana]

I dont know how much of this is on spot but a good watch none the less

[Thunderball]

Jim Keller however never intended to have fixed positions within the times he was present there.
He is an uArch engineer for hire, does his thing and gets the hell out.

Radja was a fixed position and even "leader" of the Radeon Technologies Group.

There's a difference in random people walking in and out with different companies and a leader jumping ship to a "mortal enemy".

That said... you never know what may come of this, it's entirely possible they get a new guy which will drive it into a path which would kick ass.
Or it could spell doom for RTG... all options are possible, I'm interested to see what becomes of this.

What mortal enemy are you talking about? Intel had beef with AMD, not ATI. Also I'm pretty sure AMD initial decisions regarding ATI integration had a lot to do with why he left the first time.

[Evildeffy]

What mortal enemy are you talking about? Intel had beef with AMD, not ATI. Also I'm pretty sure AMD initial decisions regarding ATI integration had a lot to do with why he left the first time.

So tell me... does ATi still exist? Is it still a separate brand? Or is it now AMD?
They are mortal enemies.. as they are 1 company, they are not separate.

Jim Keller left in 2004 where AMD didn't acquired ATi until 2006 so no.
Jim Keller @ AMD had fixed length contracts and moved on, just like he did with Zen.

He's an engineer for hire basically ... though his current appointment may be permanent.