The WoW Classic community is entering a civil war.

[klaps_05]

do either of you have a level of QoL changes you feel would be TOO MUCH or make you less interested?

Anything is on the table, including portals, LFD?R, flying, outdoor mobs that tickle and giggle, modern bg timers and honor system, very fast leveling, pet battles, professions more along retail lines - - anything.

Not referring to these 2 guys, but I am sure a lot of people are also looking for a way to explore Vanilla on a modern system, e.g. somehow have easy access to old dungeons and play them as relevant like timewalking, but with no limitations. Or the old honor system. Or old out-of-raid progression like gear resists.

And since Blizzard cant give these things on the live retail server as they dont exist anymore, people go for the next alternative - their version of acceptable vanilla(with the QoL or any other changes they want). Is it going to be 1:1 with vanilla? Definetely not, but creating Classic servers is an opportunity for them to hijack Classic servers' enthusiasts request for Vanilla and turn it into their own. These are all loyal retail customers for whom Classic servers will simply be a perk. So if its free and they want to enjoy it, they will definetely add QoL/changes.

Last but not least, the casual retail players severely outnumber Classic/TBC/Wotlk enthusiasts.

[Jyggalag]

do either of you have a level of QoL changes you feel would be TOO MUCH or make you less interested?

Anything is on the table, including portals, LFD?R, flying, outdoor mobs that tickle and giggle, modern bg timers and honor system, very fast leveling, pet battles, professions more along retail lines - - anything.

Everything in that list, to me, is not a "QoL" improvement, but a feature/mechanic/game system ultimately responsible for the decline of WoW to what it is today (except maybe prestige honor system, which might be a welcome change in a Classic server that never ends, but I'm not caring either way, just open to debate).

QoL means automating a lot of stuff that, if you had 50 out of the 10000s of vanilla addons, you could do anyway, without having 20 different addon modules in boxes cluttering your screen with their own skin etc. Like Postal for example. Here's a screenshot of my vanilla private server addon folder after 1 day of having it installed -



All of these things come as standard in retail today. Why would any of this stuff break anyone's vanilla experience?? You argue that it does? Ok - change the API so that BETTER addons can be made ====== QoL change.

TBC I'm using 1 single addon that does all of these things - ElvUI. My experience out of the gate has been 1 million times better in every aspect.

I'm talking about getting invited to 5 mans as a shadow priest, or a feral druid, or an elemental shaman. I'm not talking about making them competitive or "balanced" in any sense. Making specs that devs spent time on making but couldn't balance properly in 2007 viable is QoL. Hell make the bosses harder if you're afraid that making classes stronger takes away from the difficulty idk...

[Deficineiron]

There is a lot of thing what made Vanilla Vanilla. Old talent trees, reagents, class design, crafting, items rarity, 40 man raids, hard dungeons and much more. It is possible to keep everything I just mentioned and more and still update WoW to more modern state. From visuals, code, infrastructure to some gameplay adjustments. WoW Vanilla was unfinished product, I think WoW Classic should build upon WoW Vanilla foundation but not limit itself just for sake to keep every single brick the same.

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It will be easier, if I will write, what I would love to see in WoW classic changed.
Some zones suffers from lack of quests, unfinished quest lines, etc. This is one area I would love if they could check and make some improvements if needed. Also look into old talent trees and check, if they can improve some bad specs without changing them completely. Whole "only warrior can tank raids" was stupid in Vanilla, it would be stupid now. Also, some specs were dead in either PvE or PvP. If some number changes could improve that, that would be great.

Also I would love if they would bring ability to teleport party members through meeting stones. It was good addition in my opinion in TBC.
Of course, using new code for movement abilities, so you are not stuck constantly when you are blinking etc. and some other improvements under the hood.

And also removes Dishonorable Kills. This is probably all I would love to see changed. At least for release of Classic.

none of this is radical. there are zones that feel like the quest guy didnt get to them (azshara, blasted lands to name 2, and what happned with ravenholdt?)

how would you feel about radical QoL additions?

class tinker is a slippery slope by itself, despite the very reasonable ideas you suggest. they won't stop there, one has to assume.

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Everything in that list, to me, is not a "QoL" improvement, but a feature/mechanic/game system ultimately responsible for the decline of WoW to what it is today (except maybe prestige honor system, which might be a welcome change in a Classic server that never ends, but I'm not caring either way, just open to debate).

QoL means automating a lot of stuff that, if you had 50 out of the 10000s of vanilla addons, you could do anyway, without having 20 different addon modules in boxes cluttering your screen with their own skin etc. Like Postal for example. Here's a screenshot of my vanilla private server addon folder after 1 day of having it installed -



All of these things come as standard in retail today. Why would any of this stuff break anyone's vanilla experience?? You argue that it does? Ok - change the API so that BETTER addons can be made ====== QoL change.

TBC I'm using 1 single addon that does all of these things - ElvUI. My experience out of the gate has been 1 million times better in every aspect.

I'm talking about getting invited to 5 mans as a shadow priest, or a feral druid, or an elemental shaman. I'm not talking about making them competitive or "balanced" in any sense. Making specs that devs spent time on making but couldn't balance properly in 2007 viable is QoL. Hell make the bosses harder if you're afraid that making classes stronger takes away from the difficulty idk...

my concern is that blizzard will have a more expansive view on what constitutes QoL than any of us. Nothing you list is radical.

[ManiaCCC]

none of this is radical. there are zones that feel like the quest guy didnt get to them (azshara, blasted lands to name 2, and what happned with ravenholdt?)

how would you feel about radical QoL additions?

class tinker is a slippery slope by itself, despite the very reasonable ideas you suggest. they won't stop there, one has to assume.

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my concern is that blizzard will have a more expansive view on what constitutes QoL than any of us. Nothing you list is radical.

I am not cultist in any way, so I would probably try Classic even with radical changes, but I would rather not see some huge changes, especially some new features, which are not present in live WoW. Maybe over time. My dream scenario is, Classic will evolve, maybe even expansions would be re-introduced but this time, make it right, more hardcore, without LFR or new talent trees. Basically second chance for WoW to make things different.

But in the end, I think they know that. They know what changes are acceptable and what is bringing Vanilla experience too far. I am more worried about that vocal minority, who are against any changes, yet they can't tell us why (aside "it is not vanilla anymore) and it could push blizzard to some stupid position, where any improvement would be target of loud whining.

[Jyggalag]

my concern is that blizzard will have a more expansive view on what constitutes QoL than any of us. Nothing you list is radical.

My concern is that too many people are taking a hard line approach to QoL changes, not realising that most of what's being asked for are tiny, obscure, everyday improvements that are only going to make their playtime more enjoyable, and would likely have been implemented anyway had the hardware/dev team been better, more experienced, etc. back in the day. When they sat back in their chairs pre 2004, drawing up concepts for 3 trees of skills for every class, they didn't design a paladin tank to be useless outside of WSG. They didn't design spells so a Shaman would never cast them. They didn't intent 40% of the server pop to be warriors and rogues.

By assuming QoL means LFR, Xmog, Flying, all the massive changes that flipped the game on its head, this discussion gets buried in 2 camps, for vs against, when people have no idea what for actually is for.

[Nefastus]

Don't think there is anyhting such as "civil war". There is a few that never played classic that want features from the xpacs to it. Those guys are not the target audience for the classic servers, period.

[Jyggalag]

Don't think there is anyhting such as "civil war". There is a few that never played classic that want features from the xpacs to it. Those guys are not the target audience for the classic servers, period.

So this legacy server announcement is only aimed at people who quit the game in 2008, and haven't grown to like a single feature of the game since, and have contributed no money to the success of Blizzard since? Got it. In that case they might as well cease production and go straight for TBC legacy servers. Hopefully that fan base collectively have more brain cells.

[Deficineiron]

I am not cultist in any way, so I would probably try Classic even with radical changes, but I would rather not see some huge changes, especially some new features, which are not present in live WoW. Maybe over time. My dream scenario is, Classic will evolve, maybe even expansions would be re-introduced but this time, make it right, more hardcore, without LFR or new talent trees. Basically second chance for WoW to make things different.

But in the end, I think they know that. They know what changes are acceptable and what is bringing Vanilla experience too far. I am more worried about that vocal minority, who are against any changes, yet they can't tell us why (aside "it is not vanilla anymore) and it could push blizzard to some stupid position, where any improvement would be target of loud whining.

i think the biggest single danger is the overall game tuning. They have progressively nerfed nearly everything in the game until you are godlike from level 1 until you hit raiding. mobs tickle and giggle as their special attacks. you aoe down rooms.

there is a part of activision-blizzard that thinks that this is great design for a mass market product and feels strongly about it.

everyone should be able to see all of the content is another worry. if this becomes an internal requirement, expect difficulty levels in instances and raids.

mainly, my concern can be summed up as Blizzard and their track record post-merger.

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My concern is that too many people are taking a hard line approach to QoL changes, not realising that most of what's being asked for are tiny, obscure, everyday improvements that are only going to make their playtime more enjoyable, and would likely have been implemented anyway had the hardware/dev team been better, more experienced, etc. back in the day. When they sat back in their chairs pre 2004, drawing up concepts for 3 trees of skills for every class, they didn't design a paladin tank to be useless outside of WSG. They didn't design spells so a Shaman would never cast them. They didn't intent 40% of the server pop to be warriors and rogues.

By assuming QoL means LFR, Xmog, Flying, all the massive changes that flipped the game on its head, this discussion gets buried in 2 camps, for vs against, when people have no idea what for actually is for.

the elephant at the table is Blizzard, and they aren't even playing the same game as the for's and not'fors.

[hulkgor]

So this legacy server announcement is only aimed at people who quit the game in 2008, and haven't grown to like a single feature of the game since, and have contributed no money to the success of Blizzard since? Got it. In that case they might as well cease production and go straight for TBC legacy servers. Hopefully that fan base collectively have more brain cells.

"Erp derp. Someone likes something i don't, they surely lack brain cells!"

That's just absurd buddy.

[Jyggalag]

"Erp derp. Someone likes something i don't, they surely lack brain cells!"

That's just absurd buddy.

Thanks for confirming my theory that you lack brain cells, by taking my conclusion, the only possible conclusion that one could draw at such an ingenious statement, and replying with "Erp derp."

[ManiaCCC]

i think the biggest single danger is the overall game tuning. They have progressively nerfed nearly everything in the game until you are godlike from level 1 until you hit raiding. mobs tickle and giggle as their special attacks. you aoe down rooms.

there is a part of activision-blizzard that thinks that this is great design for a mass market product and feels strongly about it.

everyone should be able to see all of the content is another worry. if this becomes an internal requirement, expect difficulty levels in instances and raids.

mainly, my concern can be summed up as Blizzard and their track record post-merger.

I think this is where we have to put our trust into Blizzard. I know, current WoW is very different. But they acknowledged they made mistakes, they would make things differently, they see, why many people are just not happy with current WoW, etc. They understand what is the issue for many of us, and the last thing they want is to make another WoW for same crowd. From design AND business perspective, it is actually good to make things (very) different this time. So I am hopeful they wont botch it.

[Jyggalag]

i think the biggest single danger is the overall game tuning. They have progressively nerfed nearly everything in the game until you are godlike from level 1 until you hit raiding. mobs tickle and giggle as their special attacks. you aoe down rooms.

there is a part of activision-blizzard that thinks that this is great design for a mass market product and feels strongly about it.

everyone should be able to see all of the content is another worry. if this becomes an internal requirement, expect difficulty levels in instances and raids.

mainly, my concern can be summed up as Blizzard and their track record post-merger.

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the elephant at the table is Blizzard, and they aren't even playing the same game as the for's and not'fors.

They just need to be cautious and review all feedback. Not just from people screaming "Vanilla = Vanilla", but from people who have experienced Vanilla and can look at it objectively for what it was.

[ablock87]

Only divide I see are bitter anti-classic advocates claiming there is one, making non-issues seem chaotic when really no one cares.

[Notdev]

Don't think there is anyhting such as "civil war". There is a few that never played classic that want features from the xpacs to it. Those guys are not the target audience for the classic servers, period.

There's also plenty of people who did play Classic that want just a couple of changes that make sense.

[Deficineiron]

I think this is where we have to put our trust into Blizzard. I know, current WoW is very different. But they acknowledged they made mistakes, they would make things differently, they see, why many people are just not happy with current WoW, etc. They understand what is the issue for many of us, and the last thing they want is to make another WoW for same crowd. From design AND business perspective, it is actually good to make things (very) different this time. So I am hopeful they wont botch it.

The Corporate Cynic (me in this case) worries that they will put a great deal of effort into reassuring the 'classic community' including getting sponsored sites/bloggers to say good things in beta, etc, while sneaking as much nerfing in as possible.

if i am feeilng extra cynical, I would think they will need to get sponsored agitator/bloggers to demand newer features that they intend to put in anyway, to help confuse the issue/give them cover.

do i 'trust' blizzard? I trust some names who helped develop wow. I trust Rob Pardo (RIP the pardo rule, hello blue gold and instant 100). i do not trust the corporation known as activision-blizzard tyo do anything but make their games the video game equivalent of a big mac.

[Nefastus]

So this legacy server announcement is only aimed at people who quit the game in 2008, and haven't grown to like a single feature of the game since, and have contributed no money to the success of Blizzard since? Got it. In that case they might as well cease production and go straight for TBC legacy servers. Hopefully that fan base collectively have more brain cells.

For these awesome "new features" they got retail. So yes, classic are made for the people that loved classic for what it was. If they want the awesome features that made wow the trainwreck it is today they got retail.

[Deficineiron]

For these awesome "new features" they got retail. So yes, classic are made for the people that loved classic for what it was. If they want the awesome features that made wow the trainwreck it is today they got retail.

With those expectations, be prepared for surprises.

[Jyggalag]

For these awesome "new features" they got retail. So yes, classic are made for the people that loved classic for what it was. If they want the awesome features that made wow the trainwreck it is today they got retail.

And what "new features" would that be exactly? Care to reference any that I, a vanilla player, legacy server advocate, and Classic WoW QoL champion, have called for, that warrant playing Legion in its entirety?

I love seeing this argument again and again. "You want bug fixes, graphical enhancements, slight tuning, i.e. remaster of a 10 year old game? Better play a Demon Hunter and have fun in LFR then LOL" as if I haven't paid a sub for 12 years and should have no say in the development of an official blizzard server over someone who obviously hasn't stuck around long enough to even warrant a trial account.

If you added every QoL feature that BC introduced to Vanilla, you know what you'd get? Vanilla with BC QoL features. Not BC. QoL doesn't mean Black Temple and Flying mounts, in the same way it doesn't mean Demon Hunters and LFR.

Making Vanilla a better game does not simple make it Legion you absolute neanderthal.

[Sabever]

If you've been following the WoW Classic discussions across all media, you must've noticed that the community, which was once united in their single purpose of having Vanilla servers, is now fracturing itself between radicals, moderates and liberals (reformists).

As WoW Classic shapes up in the following 2 years, Blizzard will have to deal with many critical and possibly -very- decisive AND most of all -DIVISIVE- decisions on what to keep identical, and what to ''improve'' (distilling the purity of the game for QOL reasons).

Of course the content is going to be identical. It's just, how will they manage -systems- that could be altered for QOL reasons? That's more where I'm getting at.

Take a few tiny examples, which are just the -surface- of the hellhole the devs are going to have to decide in :

-Will there be a LFG tool for ''casuals'' (I doubt it, but hey some people are asking for it, lol).
-Will raids drop Paladin/Shaman gear for the Horde/Alliance? (lul)?
-Will channel message limit be limited to prevent spam, or will it be kept identical so we can have the ''original'' Barrens Chat cancerous experience?
-Will there be an option to use new character models?
-Will there be Dual Spec for ''ease of respec'' (LOL - Have fun spending hundreds on respecs if that doesn't get in!).
-What about connecting the NON-CONNECTED flight paths? Who wins here? QOL or PURISM?

There are TENS, if not HUNDREDS of questions like that, on so many layers to be taken care of. It's gonna be -very- lulzy to see the debates on what changes and what doesn't.

The devs are going to be torn apart by the rabid Vanillaers/Purists. It's going to be a massive drama fest, which I will enjoy watching thoroughly.
I played Vanilla. I know how it was. It was good at the time, created many good memories. But in today's standards? Terribly optimized and terribly balanced. I think about 90% of Vanillaers don't know what they're asking for and are blinded by their rose-tinted goggles of a brutal pioneering era. 90% of the people who will play Vanilla will quit shortly after, because they wont be able to handle the difficulty and the absence of many QOL features we now have.

It's like a modern civilian in an industrialized and democratic society claiming he wants to go back to Ancient Rome because of some romantic ideal of how glorious in what when in reality it was extremely harsh for about 98% of the population.

I respect the 10% who actually know what they're in for. But the rest are, in my opinion, and excuse my brutality, pampered hypocrits who wanted to feel like special snowflakes by constantly whining for Vanilla servers, because ''THE PAST IS ALWAYS BETTER AND BECAUSE NOSTALGIA MAKES ME FORGET ALL THE PROBLEMS THE GAME HAD AT THE TIME''.

That 10% of fanatical hardcore Vanillaers is what I believe is currently on private servers, and will benefit from official Classic servers. The other 90% of ''askers'' will come back to retail and wont admit Classic kicked their ass and that they couldn't handle it EVEN if they wanted it for so long.
Good on those who will benefit from Classic servers! I'm happy for them. I just can't stand the amount of hypocrisy behind most of the people who claim they will handle the game fine, when in fact they wont.

I know it's kind of cruel in a way, but I see Classic servers as a sort of asylum for insane nostalgic people, so they can leave us retail players alone with their constant complaining. Only, I know they wont really get exiled, since they can always come back x)

Nope! The classic community wants no changes. Latest interview with Brack indicated no changes were going to be made. The retail community keeps trying to request things and pass themselves off as the Classic community. Leave our game alone. Catering to you crybabies is what turned WoW into the crap show that it is today.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

It should be as authentic as possible. No dual-spec, no lfg, etc. No GMS as they should be focusing entirely on the new product and services. Once people remember how terrible Vanilla was they will have to choose to accept it and love it for it's flaws or move on.