[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Morally Grey Storm]

You have a blue who just came in to discuss Ret, and instead of giving them a chance and trying to discuss why they think the blue is wrong, people are just screaming about how trash of a ret player they must be. Try to justify that as much as you want, but then when the Blue leaves again, and you're wondering why we have no Blues discussing Ret...well, I'll just hold my "I told you so" until then.

Once again I will have to ask you: when was the list time in WoW history when we had a fruitful, prolonged conversation with any blues regarding Retribution?
How come they either don't engage hemselves in discussion with us, or are fething clueless any time they do?
Could it be that the reason is not within us? Could you afford such a thought for a split-second?

Do you remember how Kalgan reacted to bashing on his prescious, shit-stained, Emperor-forsaken miscarriage of an idea that is Eqalolity?
Do you really think the reason for his outburst was because we were oh so mean to him?

Do you remember how much discussion we had with blues during (fai)legion beta? Do you even know?
How come the single largest beta feedback thread(143+ pages) had fething ZERO blue responses?
Could it be they didn't care?
Could it be they thought(as usual) they knew better than us- players?

And the OP was confusing as hell, they wrote an opening post about PvP.
And then proceeded to bump their own thread several times about how PvE sucks.

if the OP was confusing as hell, the blue could specify what was in question: dragonslaying or PvP, or provide answers regarding both.
Since Ret is undeniably worse than shit in PvP atm, blue decided to derail thread with dragonslaying nonsense.

Your attempts at being a devil's advocate are not convincing enough.
Try Again Bragg.

[Jester Joe]

Once again I will have to ask you: when was the list time in WoW history when we had a fruitful, prolonged conversation with any blues regarding Retribution?
How come they either don't engage hemselves in discussion with us, or are fething clueless any time they do?
Could it be that the reason is not within us? Could you afford such a thought for a split-second?

When was the last time any class had a fruitful, prolonged conversation with blues? How about that?

And are you really saying that, as you point to an example where the Blue poster was literally insulted several dozen times and your response is "Well they totally deserved it"? That kinda gives away the problem.

Do you remember how Kalgan reacted to bashing on his prescious, shit-stained, Emperor-forsaken miscarriage of an idea that is Eqalolity?
Do you really think the reason for his outburst was because we were oh so mean to him?

no, I don't, because I just started Ret at the end of Wrath, but that was how long ago now?

Do you remember how much discussion we had with blues during (fai)legion beta? Do you even know?
How come the single largest beta feedback thread(143+ pages) had fething ZERO blue responses?
Could it be they didn't care?
Could it be they thought(as usual) they knew better then us- players?

I also remember almost every single other class having the same exact complaint. Very few got some sprinkled answers. Hell, I don't even remember Survival getting many answers, and their entire spec was ripped to shreds.

Hell, I mean, that doesn't even touch upon EU and their blue issue for a long time.

if the OP was confusing as hell, the blue could specify what was in question: dragonslaying or PvP, or provide answers regarding both.
Since Ret is undeniably worse than shit in PvP atm, blue decided to derail thread with dragonslaying nonsense.

Your attempts at being a devil's advocate are not convincing enough.
Try Again Bragg.

Because said OP asked specifically about logs at one point. It's not devil's advocate, it's a basic observation. The OP was horrible for conversation.

[Deleted]

It wasn't a provocation at all, nor was it derailing.

This reaction though is very much why blues end up posting less and less. Then people complain they're not getting attention. And then the new blues try to come in, and they get this kind of reaction.

You're taking it out on the wrong person completely. Especially in this case, that blue was just hired like what, a month or two ago? They even flat out agreed some changes would be nice (Divine Steed off the GCD is one I would love to see, strictly as a PvE'er, not dispellable and off the GCD I assume is what a PvP'er would prefer).

I mean, hell, I've seen people insulting the blue saying "they edited it to try to save face" basically, when they have a post specifically saying "I worded it wrong, sorry" and then fixed it so there wasn't more confusion.

so, u want to claim BoK = Leap = Hook?

cuz u state no other argument than: it wasnt a provocation nor derailing (which isnt an argument, but an assumption).

ofc it was, to claim BoK = Leap = Hook is nonsense. what is the implicit message of posted nonsense (as answer to 1year+ debate on ret redesign on the same topics like mobility).
even a nub (a "fresh" blue) knows this.

btw - did u read the original (non-edited) post?

i get ur point, usually its better to stay constructive, but there r always constructive, sophisticated and yet unresponded threads, that this special choice of participation in a not so "elaborated" thread verifies my analysis of the hidden intention to derail. they could have choosen others threads, but choose this one and "participated" with nonsense. its a marketing move called responsibilty-shifting, aka victim-blaming. the blue is not the victim here.

[Lunavale]

When was the last time any class had a fruitful, prolonged conversation with blues? How about that?

July, when they were working on 7.3. Although whether it was fruitful or not is arguable.

no, I don't, because I just started Ret at the end of Wrath, but that was how long ago now?

Um, what?


But really though, there's plenty of other threads that CM could've jumped into and actually had a conversation in (like the threads in class development that were actually talking about mobility), but he chose the obviously antagonistic bait thread with a bait response and got the expected outcome. Sorry, not sorry.

[Reith]

this blues intention was to derail with nonsense. it was one those not-so-subtle fuck-us froms the devs. cuz its completely irrational to claim BoK = Heroic Leap = Hook...
this statement was a provocation, with the implicit message of: hahahaha, take it or leave it, u fly when we want.
there is no constructive debate possible if a blue derails from the start, its not wanted at all (by the blue/devs sometimes). cuz all the arguments have flooded the forum for 1+ year now, esp. mobility. to what result? a nerf to Divine Intervention, cuz it felt "mandatory" after noone still didnt spec post-buff Cavalier (second Pony) iirc.
its not that the argument of a (supposedly) vocal minority is another derail (how can anybody know what the "Silent" majority thinks?)

Both of you guys are wrong. That blue isn't a developer.

[Jester Joe]

so, u want to claim BoK = Leap = Hook?

cuz u state no other argument than: it wasnt a provocation nor derailing (which isnt an argument, but an assumption).

ofc it was, to claim BoK = Leap = Hook is nonsense. what is the implicit message of posted nonsense (as answer to 1year+ debate on ret redesign on the same topics like mobility).
even a nub (a "fresh" blue) knows this.

btw - did u read the original (non-edited) post?

i get ur point, usually its better to stay constructive, but there r always constructive, sophisticated and yet unresponded threads, that this special choice of participation in a not so "elaborated" thread verifies my analysis of the hidden intention to derail. they could have choosen others threads, but choose this one and "participated" with nonsense. its a marketing move called responsibilty-shifting, aka victim-blaming. the blue is not the victim here.

They more said Divine Shield is similar to Leap, which is also a bad statement since you're not going to waste Divine shield like that, it's better used to solo soak stuff if needed.

And yes, I did. The only real edit I see was they clarified, which they even noted later.

July, when they were working on 7.3. Although whether it was fruitful or not is arguable.

Fair, but Storm specifically said beta, which is more of what I meant. All classes were pretty much ignored.

Um, what?

It's a question.
Unless Storm is still making up names for abilities for no other purpose but to confused and is talking about Holy Wrath.

But really though, there's plenty of other threads that CM could've jumped into and actually had a conversation in (like the threads in class development that were actually talking about mobility), but he chose the obviously antagonistic bait thread with a bait response and got the expected outcome. Sorry, not sorry.

It's a fair judgment call that they should have found a better thread.

But two wrongs don't make a right. The thread might have started off as trash, but that doesn't mean the responses needed to be trash.

Both of you guys are wrong. That blue isn't a developer.

No one is saying they are though?

[Lunavale]

It's a question.
Unless Storm is still making up names for abilities for no other purpose but to confused and is talking about Holy Wrath.

My confusion was because your response makes no sense. First of all, you say you "just started" Ret at the end of Wrath. I'm not sure playing Ret for 8-9 years qualifies as having "just started".
Second, he was talking about equality (which is now holy wrath, although a lot of people still refer to it as equality), and the whole fiasco with that and Kalgan came up in the legion beta. That was a little more than a year ago or something, I don't feel like looking up the exact date.

[Jester Joe]

My confusion was because your response makes no sense. First of all, you say you "just started" Ret at the end of Wrath. I'm not sure playing Ret for 8-9 years qualifies as having "just started".

My mind is still stuck in the "everyone's been playing for far longer than I" mode.

Second, he was talking about equality (which is now holy wrath, although a lot of people still refer to it as equality), and the whole fiasco with that and Kalgan came up in the legion beta. That was a little more than a year ago or something, I don't feel like looking up the exact date.

The Holy wrath and the "pick another talent" I do remember, yes. No idea about equality.

[Lunavale]

The Holy wrath and the "pick another talent" I do remember, yes. No idea about equality.

Well, it's name wasn't changed to holy wrath until late in the beta, so people got used to calling it equality (that, and holy wrath used to be a completely different spell).

It was called equality at the time that Kalgan was talking about it though, so referring to that with equality is technically more correct.

Re-reading Kalgan's post though, I'm reminded of how silly it was that he was talking about equality/holy wrath being mathematically equal to the other talents when used every 7 minutes (and I think that was before it was buffed some).

[Jester Joe]

Well, it's name wasn't changed to holy wrath until late in the beta, so people got used to calling it equality (that, and holy wrath used to be a completely different spell).

It was called equality at the time that Kalgan was talking about it though, so referring to that with equality is technically more correct.

Re-reading Kalgan's post though, I'm reminded of how silly it was that he was talking about equality/holy wrath being mathematically equal to the other talents when used every 7 minutes (and I think that was before it was buffed some).

Completely ignores though that you have to risk your life to use said talent, and it doesn't work well with the output legendaries.

I honestly don't recall it being called Equality at any point, I forgot that I guess.

[Tyze]

Is it ok to use Wake of Ashes even if you're not at 0 Hopo?


If im at 1 Holy power or possibly 2 holy power, is it worth using WoA to skip the downtime?

[Immunize]

Is it ok to use Wake of Ashes even if you're not at 0 Hopo?


If im at 1 Holy power or possibly 2 holy power, is it worth using WoA to skip the downtime?

IIRC you should use WoA when you are at 0-1 HoPo and you should try to not delay the usage of it.
Look at the remaining CD and try to play around your Spenders so you can blast it off asap.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong pls.

[Anardel]

Any ideas about our final raid Tier? I'm still not convinced with Antorus' Tier bonuses, if somebody tested it on PTR I'm ready to listen about his/her experience with it :S

[Reith]

Any ideas about our final raid Tier? I'm still not convinced with Antorus' Tier bonuses, if somebody tested it on PTR I'm ready to listen about his/her experience with it :S

Even not having used it in a raid, 4 set is overall shit any time you're using Blade of Wrath. It's decent with Divine Hammer. It pairs very badly with Soul of the Highlord because the proc is used up when using a Divine Purpose spender, wasting it completely. They still haven't fixed it as far as I know.

[rubenmsalles]

so, a blue send us a message 1 week before blizzcon that explained nothing, but just to calm the waters (and try to justify bad desicion like HAND OF PROTECTION IS A MOVEMENT SPELL!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!! I AM DYING INSIDE!) to not flood them with ret question in Q&A, so now we need to be happy?

i am sorry guys but i will re-roll in the next expansion, the desicion was taken when i saw that hand of freedom now have 45 secs cd and when arcane mages are immortals in arena

[Deleted]

Wouldnt expect much from blues anyways. I mean ion goes out 1 month before the blizzcon for a Q&A saying they are going to think something about leggos next expansion being different with utility effects or something between these lines and then one month later they go and they announce them to be removed (at least for starters).
Realyl providing feedback to these guys looks like a total waste of time and brain .

[Deleted]

so, a blue send us a message 1 week before blizzcon that explained nothing, but just to calm the waters (and try to justify bad desicion like HAND OF PROTECTION IS A MOVEMENT SPELL!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!! I AM DYING INSIDE!) to not flood them with ret question in Q&A, so now we need to be happy?

i am sorry guys but i will re-roll in the next expansion, the desicion was taken when i saw that hand of freedom now have 45 secs cd and when arcane mages are immortals in arena

Can you link to were they say BoP counts as a movement spell I would like to show this to people in my guild.

[Jester Joe]

Can you link to were they say BoP counts as a movement spell I would like to show this to people in my guild.

Don't think they said BoP, but they said Divine Shield, because it lets you run through mechanics and not care about having to go around them.

Which is silly depending on the fight, setting off traps can still be bad.

I went and looked it up, they said "our Blessings", so I guess BoP would count, but they did go on to explain Freedom (which can be fair enough if the fight has snares)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9187274?page=2

[Morally Grey Storm]

10 bucks say current ret mobility will stay the same or worse come bfa.
Who cares to wager?

[Deleted]

Don't think they said BoP, but they said Divine Shield, because it lets you run through mechanics and not care about having to go around them.

Which is silly depending on the fight, setting off traps can still be bad.

I went and looked it up, they said "our Blessings", so I guess BoP would count, but they did go on to explain Freedom (which can be fair enough if the fight has snares)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9187274?page=2

Thanks for the for the link and even if they are calling freedom mobility thats just flat out wrong.