Demo going into BfA

[Gaidax]

What? Did you even play demo in BRF? First of all, Hand of Gul'dan did more damage than Chaos Wave if they lived through the entire dot, and you were stuck at 3 charges at most, so you didn't really spam it. Secondly, if it was more of a single target encounter then using Chaos Wave was awful and you should've been using Demon Bolt. Lastly, maybe it's different strokes for different folk's, but having a robust toolkit for sustained AoE, burst AoE, and single target in one spec was amazing to me. I loved how you had to use your HoG/CW charges differently depending on whether it was sustained or burst and how you had to think about how to best use Cataclysm depending on if you wanted it to apply corruption or doom. Then you throw in Demonic Leap and touch of chaos for mobility and you legitimately had a spec which had answers for every single encounter they could throw at you.

There is no what here, absolutely top use for Hand of Guldan was to triple Chaos Wave burst into adds, of which in BRF you had plenty. What you say is true only for single target, it's not where the real damage was.

No adds there lived long enough to chain the HoG dot on them to make it better than nuking them down with Chaos Wave. The only exception was those 3 bitches and even then on pull you wanted to nuke them down while they were stack before they split up.

[oathy]

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/187671376?t=34m07s

It's pretty much confirmed now substantial changes have been made for most classes at this point in time. Some classes have more meaningful talent changes like rogues, but warlock so far hasn't seen much.

Either way, I hope they make demo a fun spec to play.

I'll certainly be sad if I lose my floating ghostly head of Thal'kiel after the xpac because I'm forced to use a staff. Hopefully they just make transmog use the skin of whatever artifact you want on whatever weapon.

Sadly they wont.
the more I'm reading between the lines of these Dev updates the chances are very little is going to change
for locks (again)

If yet again its going to be at the mercy of the replacement for Artefacts, Love these statements "legion saw massive class changes"..
It would be such a shame if everyone just went affliction simply because it seems the most worked on. huge shame

[Vynny]

There is no what here, absolutely top use for Hand of Guldan was to triple Chaos Wave burst into adds, of which in BRF you had plenty. What you say is true only for single target, it's not where the real damage was.

No adds there lived long enough to chain the HoG dot on them to make it better than nuking them down with Chaos Wave. The only exception was those 3 bitches and even then on pull you wanted to nuke them down while they were stack before they split up.

Adds on blast furnace and operator lived long enough for HoG. On top of that, you're talking about a single aspect of how we dealt damage and ignoring things like cataclysm, demonic leap, and immolation aura for AoE. On top of that, HoG did more damage than Chaos Wave even at 2 stacks so long as the dot could run its full course which is why you didn't just use Chaos Wave for single target. I mean, if you were just throwing Chaos Waves for example on Darmac rather than using a caster form cata, throwing chaos waves, leaping in for Immo Aura then I can understand why you may not have had much fun with it since you were ignoring most of your abilities.

[Lucrece]

Sadly they wont.
the more I'm reading between the lines of these Dev updates the chances are very little is going to change
for locks (again)

If yet again its going to be at the mercy of the replacement for Artefacts, Love these statements "legion saw massive class changes"..
It would be such a shame if everyone just went affliction simply because it seems the most worked on. huge shame

Affliction wasn't the one most worked on.

Let's be honest here, everyone went affliction because it has the numbers. The others don't.

If demo had affliction's numbers despite the shit mechanics, you bet your ass most warlocks would jump ship to demo regardless.

[Gaidax]

Adds on blast furnace and operator lived long enough for HoG. On top of that, you're talking about a single aspect of how we dealt damage and ignoring things like cataclysm, demonic leap, and immolation aura for AoE. On top of that, HoG did more damage than Chaos Wave even at 2 stacks so long as the dot could run its full course which is why you didn't just use Chaos Wave for single target. I mean, if you were just throwing Chaos Waves for example on Darmac rather than using a caster form cata, throwing chaos waves, leaping in for Immo Aura then I can understand why you may not have had much fun with it since you were ignoring most of your abilities.

You honestly are talking out of your ass, you have no idea what I did and did not in BRF, so i find it funny seeing you building some sand castles based on nothing but what you have in your head.

No adds did not live long enough, most adds beside the select ones died sub 10 seconds, especially on Operator where you had waves of literal trash you blasted to bits.

Demo was my main spec for years starting WoTLK and if you think I did not know how to claw damage from it throwing everything and heat sink at things, including rolling two stack HoG where it applied - you have no idea. This is the exact reason why I believe Demo was shit, because it had a bazillion of abilities which individually were shit and as a whole the theme of Demonology was not defined well.

[pseudodraco]

It surprises me they still haven't changed Demo in Legion. I mean it'd be so easy to make the spec a lot more enjoyable. Remove Demonic Empowerement, buff the demon's baseline damage to compensate. Then you buff the damage of doom and the darkglare talent and the impact damage of hand of gul'dan to make the spec better at cleave and aoe. And if you really wanna go for the glory, make Channel Demonwrath generate shards more reliably so you're not fucked by movement nearly as much.

Easy enough. You'd still have this awkward spec constantly wanting to summon massive amounts of fragile imps near your enemy where you can't even see them, but it'd be playable.

My hope is that Blizzard realizes just how terrible and stupid just about everything about this spec is and completely reworks it again next expansion and that's why we haven't seen any of the changes at all. But who am I kidding?

I would honestly love that. I played a bit of demo in WoD at the beginning of 2016 and then again in legion prepatch and carried that through as my main. Still is. I love my little demo dwarf (totally gonna make him into dark iron with the heritage plate if i can). But I really want to play a spec that's more interesting than glorified imp mother

[ChocoboMog123]

I'm not sure it needs revamp, much of its voes can be handled by tweaking numbers, like moving much of the Imp damage to Dreadstalkers and HoG, imagine 3/4 of current imp damage moved to Dreadatalkers and HoG -
that would already make ramp quite shorter. Then they should drop Mana cost for spells across the board to reduce all the life tapping and make guardians target your HoG main target.

That should set much straight really and that's no revamp there.

The thing is Demo is functional, it does well in raids (by the 3 guys who play it), so moving damage from backloaded sources to frontloaded ones should help a lot for burst and M+ too. It would also make Empowerment less spammed because imp damage would be insignificant, so the optimal way could be just to empower Dreadstalkers and make sure it is up on Felguard.

Basically think Imp damage something like 2% of your DPS instead 25% and all that moved to HoG direct damage and stalkers.

I think I usually disagree with you, but this is one of the most sensible posts I've ever seen on Demonology. You can't have every cast instant, castable while moving, and generate mana. And the idea of a rotation is there. But, again, they've had since Alpha to just try throwing some numbers around, and they didn't bother.
I would've liked to see some longer lasting temporary pets, it would help target swapping, help dungeon issues, and help while leveling/questing - just tune the numbers.
Moving more damage from imps to doggos is obvious, it places importance on keeping DE up, but removes some of the constant need to recast it, and makes your CD's feel more powerful to boot.
I'd also like to see them work on talents more, make sure talents are actually good when they should be. The first row is pretty messy with too much overlap. Impending Doom should be the de-facto multi-dot talent (should Demo even be a multi-dot spec?), Dreadstalkers the ST talent, and Implosion a less messy AOE option. The fourth row is also somewhat messy, but probably could just use some tuning. Make Hand of Doom increase HoG damage, in addition to its current effect, and it becomes a more attractive cleave option. The Grimoires, again, have too much overlap - though, maybe it's fine to have a personal preference tier. And, again, Darkglare should be the de-facto multi-dot talent (if Demo should be involved with multi-dotting), Demonbolt seems like the ST option, and I'm not sure where Soul Conduit should fit.

I think it's very possible to address Demo's current issues without a total rework. I know there's a certain population wanting larger demons, but that's all aesthetic.Blizzard just needs (or needed) to do something.

[Abraxas79]

It surprises me they still haven't changed Demo in Legion. I mean it'd be so easy to make the spec a lot more enjoyable. Remove Demonic Empowerement, buff the demon's baseline damage to compensate. Then you buff the damage of doom and the darkglare talent and the impact damage of hand of gul'dan to make the spec better at cleave and aoe. And if you really wanna go for the glory, make Channel Demonwrath generate shards more reliably so you're not fucked by movement nearly as much.

Easy enough. You'd still have this awkward spec constantly wanting to summon massive amounts of fragile imps near your enemy where you can't even see them, but it'd be playable.

My hope is that Blizzard realizes just how terrible and stupid just about everything about this spec is and completely reworks it again next expansion and that's why we haven't seen any of the changes at all. But who am I kidding?

I think the days of changing the mechanics of a spec post expansion are over. Basically it comes down to what you see is what you get. No matter how unpopular something is, do not expect a change. Oh they will fiddle with numbers endlessly, but that isn't going to change the fundamental aspects of a spec. We saw this in Legion with Locks/Demo, Outlaw/Rogue, Survival/Hunter.

Anyways, they don't want Warlocks playing Demo period. The lead designer is on record stating as much. Apparently this detracts from the attractiveness of Demon Hunters. The same reason explains why you never saw any model updates for our demons, despite a whole expansion dedicated to demonic invasion.

[Deleted]

I think the days of changing the mechanics of a spec post expansion are over. Basically it comes down to what you see is what you get. No matter how unpopular something is, do not expect a change. Oh they will fiddle with numbers endlessly, but that isn't going to change the fundamental aspects of a spec. We saw this in Legion with Locks/Demo, Outlaw/Rogue, Survival/Hunter.

Anyways, they don't want Warlocks playing Demo period. The lead designer is on record stating as much. Apparently this detracts from the attractiveness of Demon Hunters. The same reason explains why you never saw any model updates for our demons, despite a whole expansion dedicated to demonic invasion.

Well, no.

They changed Destro and Frost Dk massively.

[Abraxas79]

Well, no.

They changed Destro and Frost Dk massively.

Really ? What patch was that ?

[Deleted]

Really ? What patch was that ?

Destro before ToS launch

Frost DK before ToV launch

[Gaidax]

Really ? What patch was that ?

They changed resource system for Destruction mid-expansion with shardbits and shardbits generation, basically brought back embers. That's not a trivial thing there and it's actually pretty damn unique case where such things are done mid expansion . Seems like some people have quite a short memory.

[FertsBlert]

Easy fix for Demo, piss the bloody Imps off completely except as a CD we can pop that summons a fuckload of them and gives us a BIG burst of damage then we don't see them again for another 2-5 mins "YAY Imp Mother is OFF CD".

Allow us to control two demons at all times then we can run our tank and DPS Demons.

And for the love of all that is unholy bake the effects of fucking Empowerment into our summons, we have our filler it's called ShadowBolt.

Then of course adjust the numbers to where they should be.

Edit: and oh yeah give all specs a fucking baseline interrupt or stop creating world mobs let alone instance mobs that are annoying as shit if you don't have one.

[Ilir]

A lot of people here are asking for some OP stuff. "give us instants, get rid of mana tap, give us increase mobility baseline". I'm surprised no one asked for "give us cast while moving back".

They could remove life tap, but they'll have to nerf us to compensate. I do agree life tapping seems a bit odd but I got to like it because I usually use it during movement so I don't feel like i'm wasting my time.

I do agree with making DE a cd, or at least give it a better visual. I liked the idea of summoning a demon buffer that by itself doesn't deal much damage but empowers all of our demons. It would make using DE more exciting.

Shadowbolt should be replaced by demonbolt just because of the animation of demonbolt.

[Abraxas79]

Destro before ToS launch

Frost DK before ToV launch

Right and we will see those type of changes in 8.0., right before BFA. My point was that you would be foolish to buy the expansion if you do not like what they have done to the class in the vain expectation that they are going to change it later on. i.e.: No one asked for a Melee Hunter and hardly anyone plays survival. Don't expect Blizzard to reverse course and go back to range in some patch because of how unpopular their design choice was. By the same token, whatever Demo looks like in 8.0 would pretty much what to expect for BFA.

[Drakile]

I'm in agreence that we will probably not see another super overhaul unless they give our spec niche to another class again. That being said Demo being reworked is par for the course for those who don't know it's basically a new class every expansion since Wrath, I wonder what it's like to play a 'static' spec xD

Iirc in Wrath we weren't even brought for damage we provided a spell power buff whenever the felguard crit, then in Cata there was a much larger push for lining Metamorphosis up with CDs because it wasn't a stance yet, then we had stance dancing in MoP where they tried out the imp swarms for the first time with unerring vision, a mechanic we'd see take center stage for WoD when we were changed into more of a turret playstyle, it wasn't about managing your fury as it was making sure you could empty all of your DF at certain points, and then that leads us here into Legion, Meta-less and a new focus on maintaining a small envoy of demons to fight for you,

I would like to see a change that utilized the idea that we draw power from our pets as they attack which lets us empower them more, kinda like the wierd shadowbolt/demonbolt buff we get from the imp via artifact but instead of it being the filler, maybe it built up charges of a CD oriented Demonic Empowerment.