Current raider mindset vs vanilla

[Akka]

Will be interesting to witness the moment in classic where people finally begin to understand what they signed up for.

-Gather 40 players for raids
-Gather resistance gear for 40 people
-Material grinding with no flying mounts to produce the epic amounts of flasks and potions needed
-Grinding gold for repairs / mats / epic mounts
-Touring the world before raids for world buffs

Personally I'm happy those days are well behind.

Different strokes for different folks.
I never liked the consummable farm (I bless the days of the 2.1 patch when Blizzard finally capped it all), but I actually LOVED the whole "slowly building up your raid". I'm a team player at heart, and once you have a core group of players you can rely on, you get this "we're all in it together" feeling and it's great to slowly progress with everyone. It's quite fun to actually craft things for your team-mate, having people gather materials in the world for others and so on.
More "solo-minded" players might feel it's a chore, but working all together for a common goal has definitely been something I really liked in Vanilla and TBC, which more or less vanished from WotLK onward.

Most fights in AQ40 alone would rip people to shreds if they came unprepared. Yes like you said, MC bosses to a point would be fine, but once you get to BWL and moving forward it's not nearly as simple as some people would have it be. A lot seem to be thinking of WOTLK when they talk about Naxx. Naxx40 was something else entirely.

Yeah, it seems people think that all Vanilla raiding was on the level of MC or WotLK Naxx, and as such have a pretty absurd view of Vanilla raid difficulty (and WotLK Naxx was in fact about the same difficulty as MC).

[mauserr]

There's a world of difference between Molten Core/Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas.

The dps requirement for the Naxxramas bosses is pretty steep, at least. Especially Loatheb and Kel'Thuzad, but also Gothik and Thaddius. Four Horsemen and Gothik are reasonably complex encounters and I can remember taking a pug into Naxxramas at 70 and basically everyone got roasted by the dance, (it's considerably faster than the 80 version) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igxPuFO3dLQ.

Molten Core could definitely be 20-manned in poor gear. It'd just take a while. I can remember a warlock who decided to try using rank 1 shadowbolt all raid as an experiment and was 5th on DPS. Everyone else was just grossly incompetent.

How was that hard? I was never on that boss so I'm not entirely sure if my logic here is correct, but wololo hardmode on stop dps and just run where the previous slime erupted hurr yeeeeeee durrr hard mekanikszzzzzzzzz vanilla 2 hard 4 us, if you had shitty internet/pc or poor reaction skills then tough shit lmao "git gud" is the gist of it.

[Echocho]

Oh shit, think they'll put original naxx in over EPL?

Where else would it be?

[Kaleredar]

Yeah! Who needs to worry about content drought when each tier takes you a year and a half to gear in before the next one anyway?

Brilliant!

And you can make the bosses bugged to all hell to make them impossible to beat even when you get to them!

[Echocho]

Different strokes for different folks.
I never liked the consummable farm (I bless the days of the 2.1 patch when Blizzard finally capped it all), but I actually LOVED the whole "slowly building up your raid". I'm a team player at heart, and once you have a core group of players you can rely on, you get this "we're all in it together" feeling and it's great to slowly progress with everyone. It's quite fun to actually craft things for your team-mate, having people gather materials in the world for others and so on.
More "solo-minded" players might feel it's a chore, but working all together for a common goal has definitely been something I really liked in Vanilla and TBC, which more or less vanished from WotLK onward.

There will be guilds for every type of player. My guild will always strive to do our best but we won't require people to mindlessly pop consumables when it's not needed or go half round the world and get buffs that'll be eaten up by garr anyway like a lot of private server guilds do.
They should always have the consumables in their bags but only use them when the encounter requires it.

[Nitros14]

How was that hard? I was never on that boss so I'm not entirely sure if my logic here is correct, but wololo hardmode on stop dps and just run where the previous slime erupted hurr yeeeeeee durrr hard mekanikszzzzzzzzz vanilla 2 hard 4 us, if you had shitty internet/pc or poor reaction skills then tough shit lmao "git gud" is the gist of it.

Shrug, it's harder than the dance on mythic archimonde, and about the same as dodging rings on mythic Elisande (which lord knows tons of modern players struggled with I watched them die to it pull after pull). This game is not difficult individually, the difficulty has always been meeting numbers checks while doing mechanics and getting your entire raid to do mechanics at the same time.

[sylenna]

It's usually the vanilla crowd telling everyone how much better they were as players. Somehow time=skill to them. As for the bold part. Anyone with years of extra experience is going to be better no? Considering in those years people were dealing with ever harder mechanics, I don't think its a stretch to say that anyone that can slog out the terrible grind is going to murder bosses with no problem. Think of people coming into vanilla with experience vs. someone like myself who had never played an MMO before.

well, we had a much smaller toolkit at hand and most of the hard encounters had to be perfectly executed. no speed boosts, grips or other things which let you get out of danger if you miscalculated.

[Nitros14]

Well, in retail there aren't many number checks anymore. Your character usually doesn't have to beat the encounter, you do.

I think you meant to say there aren't gear checks. There's definitely numbers checks to make in retail.

Certainly the game has moved more towards personal responsibility. It's definitely harder than vanilla.

[Revamp Man]

there sill be guilds doing "split clears" of MC to gear up their BWL team
there will be a dedicated leatherworker for cloaks
there are no roadblocks other than gear that will stop todays players from steamrolling those raids

[Netherblood]

That's just from people using MC as the template for all Vanilla raiding.
Yes you could kill half the MC bosses with 20 people. Ragnaros with 20 people ? Better to have them already geared and pretty decent, but maybe doable.
Razorgore with 20 people ? Good luck. Vael with 20 people ? Unless you already have gear from well beyond him and/or are using consummable like candies, good luck again.


There is this weird stupid belief that today's players are somehow some sort of different, gameplay-wise superior species than people back then (hint : they aren't) and that somehow people who had played hardcore one year and a half were still clueless and noob (hint : they weren't). It seems that people don't understand that the TYPE of difficulty was different (more about tight tuning and management than mechanically complex), but that it was difficult nonetheless.

You can't have one type of difficulty without the other though, tight tuning in live raids only exists because of heavy movement due to mechanics and rotations not being simple. So best players do way more dps than average players because they know how to maximize dps while dealing with mechanics. If there are no mechanics and your rotation is 1 button(frostbolt), then tight tuning is just a gear check. I'll agree that some Naxx40 bosses had real mechanics, but majority didn't. Thaddius for example has no mechanics other then tank throw p1 and only 1 mechanic p2 which is polarity shift. Sure current LFR raiders would fuck up polarity shift, but if you take a top notch Mythic guild, they wouldn't, the mechanic is very simple. Mechanically the hardest part of Thadius would probably be making the jump after p1.

[khalltusk]

I hope that we get two types of Classic server, one being as close to as it was and one with Flex added among some other QOL. Flex raiding would be nice to have for me as I could raid with a close group of 15 people or more rather than the cluster fuck of 40 that we used to require.

I was thinking about it recently and figured flex would help a lot of people who want to do classic but dont want the hassle of 40man raiding.

[Lolsteak]

-Gather 40 players for raids

People did and continue to do it on less known and poorly advertised private servers, I see no issue.

-Gather resistance gear for 40 people

You make it sound as if one person was gearing the other 39, That's incorrect. People geared themselves up, It's a personal issue if you find it too difficult or time consuming.

-Material grinding with no flying mounts to produce the epic amounts of flasks and potions needed

People will farm what they feel comfortable to make gold and use the auction house to fill in where needed, You don't have to personally farm all the herbs required. Farm what you find enjoyable.

-Grinding gold for repairs / mats / epic mounts

Same as before, People farmed back in Vanilla and people farm now, There's no difference.

-Touring the world before raids for world buffs

I raided in Vanilla and never did that, Sounds like a 1% problem to me.

[Akka]

It's usually the vanilla crowd telling everyone how much better they were as players. Somehow time=skill to them.

No, it's more the moving goalpost of the anti-Vanilla crowd which redefines what "difficulty" means on the fly so to exclude whatever was in Vanilla. You can sum up 90 % of their argument with "X isn't making the game more difficult, just more tedious". Replace "X" with whatever the guy wants to discard. And so we often reach comically stupid argument like "having a mob with higher damage and HP doesn't make the game harder". Sure, mate, sure.

As for the bold part. Anyone with years of extra experience is going to be better no?

Simplistic reasoning.

1) Results aren't linear. It's not because you play twice as much that you get twice bigger DPS. You tend to progress A LOT at the beginning, when you get the basics. Then you progress slower as you get the more intricate subtleties. Then you reach a level where you somewhat stagnate, or at best progress very slowly.
Add to this, that this efficiency is also limited by the complexity of gameplay itself (extreme example : if you only have to spam frostbolt, then there is very little, if any, difference between a world-tier player and a regular "good player").
So once the guy has reached "competency" in Vanilla, he's not gonna double his output even by playing 10 more years. He might make marginal gain, but that's it.

2) People in late Vanilla weren't noob.
Late Vanilla means one year and a half to two years of experience. That's not a noob anymore, for a long time. That's already reaching the "competence" level after which the gains are marginal.
New players in Cata and later had not this experience (since they were new). Yet somehow even those people were still considered "better" as a whole. By the magic of starting the game later. Not convinced.

3) The toolboxes have changed.
One of the main argument used is "look what we can manage know, we couldn't back then !" (usually by pointing how one-shot mechanisms are handled by players, or massive damage are healed and so on).
Of course, it pays to remember that now we have TONS of abilities to do so. Being able to heal a whole raid after an AoE damage by pushing a CD button is not the same has having to heal everyone one by one while not burning too much mana. Not getting killed is easier when you have automated save mechanisms (thanks cheat death), self-heal and damage mitigation is hardly the same as when you had none of that. Getting out of the fire is much easier when you have abilities which can teleport you 30 m away. Etc.

So yes, there is some sort of experience gain, there is more complex rotations and much more cluttered fights, but the gap is grossly exagerated.

[Nitros14]

You can't have one type of difficulty without the other though, tight tuning in live raids only exists because of heavy movement due to mechanics and rotations not being simple. So best players do way more dps than average players because they know how to maximize dps while dealing with mechanics. If there are no mechanics and your rotation is 1 button(frostbolt), then tight tuning is just a gear check. I'll agree that some Naxx40 bosses had real mechanics, but majority didn't. Thaddius for example has no mechanics other then tank throw p1 and only 1 mechanic p2 which is polarity shift. Sure current LFR raiders would fuck up polarity shift, but if you take a top notch Mythic guild, they wouldn't, the mechanic is very simple. Mechanically the hardest part of Thadius would probably be making the jump after p1.

Thaddius is literally a boss in Tomb of Sargeras. Except Maiden is more forgiving on how long you have to move with fel/holy and instead of instantly wiping you get a chance to jump in the pit. Mythic adds the instant death back in and some other mechanics, but heroic is basically Thaddius but easier with no dps requirement. Especially since tanks (even on mythic) just ignore the split damage mechanic by pressing one of the fourteen tank cooldowns added to the game.

Also with a boss like Thaddius in 40-man, you're adding 20 more points of failure twenty extra chances for someone to fuck up and wipe the raid.

Also it's worth mentioning that every boss in Naxxramas had a mechanic called threat that no longer exists. You needed an eye glued to your threat meter since bosses were 90% immune to taunt if you pulled you were dead.

[nothingsjim]

Current Raiding = Do you know what to do?

Vanilla Raiding = Can you do it despite knowing what to do?

There're so many mechanics in boss fights nowaday, people get confused about what they should do, and once they figured out what to do, they beat the mechanic rather easily, with the exception of a few bosses (Mythic Avatar, KJ for instance)

Vanilla raiding...is like Kil'Jaeden's Armageddon. It's so damn easy, just soak it so it doesn't blow up the raid, but god so many ppl screw that up.

[Netherblood]

Thaddius is literally a boss in Tomb of Sargeras. Except Maiden is more forgiving on how long you have to move with fel/holy and instead of instantly wiping you get a chance to jump in the pit. Mythic adds the instant death back in and some other mechanics, but heroic is basically Thaddius but easier with no dps requirement. Especially since tanks (even on mythic) just ignore the split damage mechanic by pressing one of the fourteen tank cooldowns added to the game.

Also with a boss like Thaddius in 40-man, you're adding 20 more points of failure twenty extra chances for someone to fuck up and wipe the raid.

Also it's worth mentioning that every boss in Naxxramas had a mechanic called threat that no longer exists. You needed an eye glued to your threat meter since bosses were 90% immune to taunt if you pulled you were dead.

On mythic you have to deal with orbs in regular phases and in intermission soak every single orb. Thadius just have switch side mechanic and thats it. Also in mythic no one wipes to switch sides, most wipes after a few pulls will happen to a messed up orb, people missing or hitting wrong orbs in intermission, or people dying to heavy damage of the bomb dot and exploding. Also jumping in the whole only really saves you from the bombs she puts on you not the ones you got from messing up a mechanic. If you get hit by a hammer swirlie you get a bomb and unless you have very strong cd and pop it fast you are going to die and explode. Same with intermission pick up wrong orb and you have to go jump and orbs get missed.

Also all of this with real rotations vs just frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt.

[shaidyn]

I'm really excited to bring 13 years of experience to Classic wow. I got my ass handed to me, over and over, by so many dungeons. I was a macro-less, noob, clicking tank. I want to have my UI set up correctly, have my gear on point, have my consumables on hand, and really make a name for myself.

[Nitros14]

On mythic you have to deal with orbs in regular phases and in intermission soak every single orb. Thadius just have switch side mechanic and thats it. Also in mythic no one wipes to switch sides, most wipes after a few pulls will happen to a messed up orb, people missing or hitting wrong orbs in intermission, or people dying to heavy damage of the bomb dot and exploding. Also jumping in the whole only really saves you from the bombs she puts on you not the ones you got from messing up a mechanic. If you get hit by a hammer swirlie you get a bomb and unless you have very strong cd and pop it fast you are going to die and explode. Same with intermission pick up wrong orb and you have to go jump and orbs get missed.

Also all of this with real rotations vs just frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt.

I'm familiar with the encounter, of course modern mythic is harder.

[belfpala]

It's "this is impossible."

vs.

"we're entitled."

That's the game going on.