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  1. #21
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    https://www.childtrends.org/indicato...en-in-poverty/
    http://www.aaets.org/article230.htm

    22% of children are born into poverty. That's pretty high and those parents obviously can't ensure a standard of living worthy of human dignity for those kids. Moreover they're more likely to become a drag on society just like their deadbeat parents. Now before people get triggered and start talking about their wonderful friends that come from drug addict families, remember that exceptions just prove the rule.

    It's pretty obvious that middle class families are way better for children than poverty-stricken families. Even the UN has a set of rights and freedoms that children must have (and those deadbeat families obviously aren't ensuring them). So why isn't procreation regulated by the government? Say a minimum set of standards that people must pass before procreating (e.g. a special course designed to teach them how to be a good parent, how to feed their children properly, how to educate them, how to develop their hobbies. Both parents being steadily employed and having good incomes is also a must).

    Everyone talks about how terrible it is when children are born to 16 year old girls, single parents, drug addicts and criminals but no one does anything about it. "But Wilfire, it's her body and her choice, the government can't force women to abort if they don't have a certificate!". Right and wrong, it's her right but remember, rights come with obligations. Even the UN says that rights and freedoms may be limited by law to prevent people from abusing said rights to harm other people. Forcing kids to live in poverty is a pretty grievous violation of human rights. Obviously dragging people kicking and screaming into Planned Parenthood will cause outrage so there's no need to do that. If someone decides that they're above the law and give birth to children without having previously obtained a certificate, teach them a lesson. Put those kids up for adoption and slap the deadbeat parents with a lengthy jail sentence.

    Making kids suffer because their parents are selfish is plain wrong.
    In my mythical perfect world, there would be a license and test for reproduction. But in the reality we live in, that will never happen. It is a basic human right that will never be regulated.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  2. #22
    Africa could need that, they are about to add a few billion more people or so in the comming years, 1.5 by years 2050 if i remember right and they can barely feed what they have now.

    Future is looking bright in africa.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Release View Post
    I'm pretty sure environmental regulation was created because companies as a general rule don't give a damn about the environment where profit is concerned so unless we put regulations on them the situation would be worse than it is currently. I really don't see how that is limiting competition through legal channels but I acknowledge that exists also.
    Probably yes and no - if we assumed that Environmental regulation is 100% universally fairr to all involved players than that would be the case, 100% - but we are dealing with human beings, more so human beings with power who just happen to be very prone to corruption and self-interest (and therefore can be bribed at worst, dishonest at best) and special favors to the highest bidder will be made.

    This article was written in 1995, but it is still pretty interesting today
    https://fee.org/articles/environment...-as-any-other/

    Ill give an even better example - here in the USA, all foods are regulated, and supposedly there is FDA and many other alphabet agencies that supposedly keep food safe. We are often forbidden (officially) to bring basic foods (like granma's preserves) from abroad, they forbade french cheese import made from unpasteurized milk (stating safety concerns ofcourse), we are prohibited from growing black currants (google this one, this was a perfect special interest gimmick disguised under "its bad for local environment, then there is the raw milk scare, etc etc (drank raw milk all my childhood and never had problems)) - YET, look at a lot of foods that are sold in a typical US supermarket - the ingredient table has full periodic table in it. The amount of junk sold as food here (even compared to Europe, although Europe did get worse over the last 10 years) is off the scale and totally cool and approved by the FDA.
    Look at the drug scandals (regualted by the FDA, no less) that pop up every now and then. The Tylenol issue (several years ago). These are just the ones that become public knowledge. Imagine what we never get to know.

    I have a friend who is anasthesiologist -he tells the amount of drugs being pushed on people these days are off the scale, and everything gets approved by the FDA, its a matter of time and money poored at the government by the pharma industries.

    Just saying.

  4. #24
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiteme12 View Post
    Fix everyone at birth so they are unable to have children until they pass a free exam to determine their ability to raise a kid. Once it is determined the kid will have a reasonably good life unfix the people allow them to have one kid fix them again/repeat. >
    We would need a 100% reversible way to do this, which we currently do not.

    Perhaps, as science and technology improve, we won't need reproductive abilities anymore. If you can grow a child using gene's from two people without the need for pregnancy, then i'd find this to be a better method. All the while, sterilizing people at birth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Nerd View Post
    What's next? Eugenics? Aborting every fetus with diseases and disorders? Sounds like some real spooky nazi shit right there. Wouldn't surprise me these days since America voted Trump into the office... Nazis need a reminder that they are not welcome anywhere.
    Grow them without defects. If one is grown with a defect, trash it and grow a new one. lol
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by durenas View Post
    Because to the vast majority of devout Christians, interfering with the natural procreation process is taboo. Contraception and abortion are a thing in direct defiance of the Church, and in western countries, there is no political will to force people to be responsible.
    How convenient, all the while having the state take care of brood mothers' children.

  6. #26
    Make contraceptions available for everyone. That will pretty much solve many things. Maybe even this.

  7. #27
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tico View Post
    Make contraceptions available for everyone. That will pretty much solve many things. Maybe even this.
    In the US, it basically is available to everyone. However that may be being reduced with the desire to shut down planned parenthood.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  8. #28
    You don't want to have that regulated.

  9. #29
    The government is incapable of doing it's legally obligated duties and you want them to foray into the bedroom of everyone? I understand that the preamble says you promote the general welfare, but this isn't how you go about it.

  10. #30
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    I wouldn’t want to see some Chinese style legislation, what I would prefer is education such as...

    1. You don’t have to have children
    2. If you can barely afford to feed yourself then don’t have children
    3. Do not expect the state to give you everything
    4. The best way to achieve a comfortable life is to work hard, not to get knocked up as a teenager
    5. Contraception is a thing, as is anal
    6. Two parent families are a better environment for you and the child, so pick your partner carefully
    7. Don’t call your son Jack, unless you want everyone to know you are a chav

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Standing up for the rights of children while directly and explicitly attacking the rights of adults really isn't the winning argument you think it is.

    Rather than complaining that people are having kids, maybe ensure that society provides sufficient support for its working class and poor so that those children don't suffer?
    This and a thousand times this. Talk about really attacking the wrong thing. We should be fighting for a society of equality and solidarity, not start some kind of population control where only the well-off get to have kids. The kind of elitism that implies churns my stomach.

  12. #32
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Why not just root out the problem and get rid of poor people?

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Xenyatta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    It's pretty obvious that middle class families are way better for children than poverty-stricken families. Even the UN has a set of rights and freedoms that children must have (and those deadbeat families obviously aren't ensuring them). So why isn't procreation regulated by the government? Say a minimum set of standards that people must pass before procreating (e.g. a special course designed to teach them how to be a good parent, how to feed their children properly, how to educate them, how to develop their hobbies. Both parents being steadily employed and having good incomes is also a must).
    Many families I know of wouldn't fit that right there. I know many families where just one parent works and the other tends to the household and the children. My husband and I wouldn't fit that. He makes a good salary, I do odd jobs for spending money and our 2 kids live in a nice 3500 sq ft home on a 1/3 acre of land in a nice safe development where the kids go play til the street lights come on, good schools and they both have their activities. But by your standard set above, we wouldn't be able to qualify to have children even though we're doing a pretty decent job at it.

    And good incomes... that's relative to your needs and desires. If you are a simple person with limited needs and interests, your income needs would be way lower than someone who wants a lot of flashy gadgets, or nice cars or a lavish home. And I can say living in New Jersey, you need minimum of $100k a year to live modestly and close to $200k a year to live a little more lush whereas in Indiana, you make $70k? You're doing pretty damn well. Try Southern California where a shoebox is $500k or Denver where a 2 bedroom house is $600k. It's all relative and impossible to police your thoughts.

  14. #34
    I started reading what you wrote OP then realized that it doesn't matter since I would never agree to any law telling people if they can or can not have kids.
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  15. #35
    I just wish the natural birthing process was as well regulated as the adoption process. Potential adoptive parents have to go through so many hoops to prove they are ready, willing and able to take care of a child and have actually thought about what it takes to raise one before they're even considered.

    I know it will never happen because there's no way to impose anything without severely restricting an individuals rights, but in a perfect world, only parents who actually want kids and have proven they can and will do their best to take care of them will end up having them.

    Opening sequence minutes of the movie Idiocracy always comes to mind when subjects like this come up.

  16. #36
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycnyc88 View Post
    As someone once said every single government regulation ever invented was to limit competition through legal channels (ie special favors).
    lol

    Wow. Not sure who that person is that told you that, but they are absolute morons. While there are certainly examples of government regulations put in place due to company interference, the majority of regulations are there because of stunt companies actually pulled.

    Regulations are almost always a result of a company that has actually pulled that particular stunt. Food safety regulations were created because lazy restaurant owners actually caused food poisoning and, in some cases, death. Worker safety regulations were created because lazy owners couldn't be bothered to take care of the workers safety. Financial regulations were created because banks and other financial institutions actually screwed over their customers with these tactics. And so on and so on.

    Don't believe me? Take the time to educate yourself.

    Look up the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1914 (146 dead workers due to the lack of safety regulations back then).

    Look up the Food and Drugs Act of 1906 in response to misbranded and adulterated (i.e. dangerous to health and consumer fraud) foods, drinks and drugs which went along with the Meat Inspection Act of 1906; itself a response to the highly unsanitary conditions in meat packing plants of the time.

    Look up the banks malfeasance as one of the causes of the Great Depression resulting in the Banking Act of 1933 (aka the Glass-Steagall Act).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    I read once that poor people get a lot of kids because they experience it as the only way to get a feeling of happiness from life, being aware that they wil have little to no chance to get anything else from life.

    If they would just have one I don't think the problem(s) would be so bad, but they never seem to stop at one and prefer to have more children that people with higher incomes.
    I've also read that only-children, or children from small families, are far more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety, and other debilitating conditions. So, I guess it's a toss up?

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  18. #38
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Standing up for the rights of children while directly and explicitly attacking the rights of adults really isn't the winning argument you think it is.

    Rather than complaining that people are having kids, maybe ensure that society provides sufficient support for its working class and poor so that those children don't suffer?
    There is only so much resources in the world that can continue to support an ever growing population.
    #boycottchina

  19. #39
    Raising children in modern society is expensive. This was not the case in earlier societies. Instead of blaming adults of the poor and working classes, the issue would best be solved by either making investing in children's futures less expensive with a greater frequency of worthwhile reward and/or reducing the overall cost of living that directly effects the homestead.

  20. #40
    The Lightbringer
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    Cause eugenics is bad even thou I know some people should not be allowed children.
    (My experience)A kid I went to school with during my childhood is/was (i try not to involve myself with him) trying to get his wife pregnant, now the thing is they don’t have a job/car/perment home, he himself has a history of drug/alchol abuse and been in rehab at least 2x not on his own accord. He has been jailed multiple times for violence, theft and drugs. His wife is to put it at best unhealthy , (as Of last summer she was bone thin )and is more then slightly mentally handicapped. They can’t even properly take care of themselfs let alone a child, and they wouldn’t get help from their parents to raise a child since this crap runs in their family.
    Also their own parents

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