Class Balancing... no thanks

[calanos]

The reason to bring Pally/Druid/Shaman for healing (depending on which faction you were) over 15 priests basically boiled down to the fact that you couldn't feasibly gear 15 priests. Sure you got innervates, auras and blessings, but from a numbers standpoint it was basically ideal to roll with 10 priests and a mix of a couple druids and paladins if you could recruit geared Priests.

Similar reasoning to not bringing 10 rogues, etc. The difference between a well geared Rogue and a well gear, say, Ret Paladin was literally like 100% DPS if you were playing well. And there was no such thing as a well geared Ret, because there were no set bonuses.

I will admit that the classic servers intrigue me, because I had more fun playing Vanilla than anything else. But I think people remember Vanilla so fondly largely because

1) They had no reference point to compare it to, since most people had never played an MMO, or had just played EQ or some garbage like that.
2) It was a revolutionary game for 2004-5 that came out at the perfect time when a majority of the country was just getting high speed internet at home making large-scale online gaming possible. Raiding with 39 other people was just so cool and new back then!
3) There is a trade-off between immersion and convenience in MMOs. Vanilla was all immersion (long runs to dungeons, slow progress, giant world that felt alive and like nothing you had ever seen in 2004). Current game is all about convenience, because attention spans (and the lack of awe-factor at big raid groups and big open worlds 15 years after WoW was developed) are now what they used to be. The immersion was what made vanilla special, but doesn't really fit in 2018 when all of that stuff is commonplace in gaming.

If they release Vanilla with no changes, I literally can't imagine more than maybe 20-50k people sticking with it for more than a month or two despite a very large surge of players initially. Certainly the bulk of players will never make it to 60. And those who do make it to 60 will likely:

1) Be VERY disproportionately Priest/Warrior/Rogue/Mage, with very few Pally/Druid/Shamans around

2) Be so much better at mechanics that spamming your 1 to 3 button rotation while doing 1 mechanic per fight will mean the only walls to progression will be the incredibly slow gearing of 40 people @ 2-3 items per boss. Mechanically every boss in MC/BWL/1st half of AQ40 is a first-boss of current tiers (or easier) level of mechanics. People will get bored fast

I think in order to make the game have any sort of lasting appeal, they should leave the class functionality/rotations/etc the same, but tune numbers so that at very least hybrid specs are like within 25% of main specs. Resto druid mains are not going to put up with being literally useless in the open world for very long in 2018 or whenver the game comes out, unless they love Vanilla to an absurd amount. There are players like that out there, but not many.

I don't think many changes need to made to the overall game, I like the idea of a real vanilla experience. But making it so that Druids/Pallys/Shammys are at least somewhat functional at non-healer roles seems like a much needed tweak on the numbers side only.

[Kilperch]

Many people want no changes to be made on the new Classic server. But in my opinion people forget one big change from the original game which can't be avoided... Our knowledge!

When the game released in 2004 no one knew how bad/boring ret palas would be and many chose to play them. The same thing can be said about feral druids, shadow priest etc.

Today everyone knows this, and probably only the paladin fan boys are going to play ret pala when the classic server releases. 95 % are going to be rogue, warrior or mage.

Maybe vanilla was like this in end 2006, but not when it released in 2004.

I hear many people say "Then it wouldn't be vanilla, would it?".... but I say the same thing about a WoW with no ret palas or feral druids.

"Oh look... a rogue... and another rogue... and another rogue... and another rogue... and another rogue..."

They will have to change the name of the game to: "The World of Rogues, Mages and Warriors."

A good point. A vanilla server can never truly capture that old vanilla feeling because we're all older and wiser now.

As a side note, I think it would be hilarious to log in to the classic server on launch day to see it completely deserted. Only its not deserted, its filled with thousands of rogues. Nothing but rogues as far as the eye can see.

[Contego]

We ran 2 two enhance shaman that did well. One even got a hand of rag and he owned with that weapon. Now we did have like 8 combat rogues that tore shit up for when windfurry procs were shit lol.

Same here, my GM was an enhance shaman with sulfuras (which he got from a previous guild, but still got it none the less). We also had a high warlord arms warrior in our guild, a balance druid, several hunters and warlocks (who did way more than just summon people and tranq shot magmadar), as well as shamans (incl me) and druids being allowed to heal, and not just ress and innervate. We rarely ever wiped in MC, ZG and onyxia. A few times in BWL only, which all guilds did.

I don't recognize the attitude people here speak about at all, where only holy priests, prot warriors, rogues and mages were invited into raids. Not my guild, and no other guild acted like that. Nobody ever said they felt discriminated based on class, and I saw just as many warlocks decked out in t1/t2 as I saw rogues.

I have a feeling that alot of the people spouting this, actually are just an echo chamber that didn't really play vanilla, but just repeat things they have heard from others, that makes sense to them from a modern perspective, since people would definately have that attitude today.

[nmarg85]

Paladins are Holy warriors and are a hybrid class. They can deal melee DPS, tank, or heal. Paladins also have very strong group support and buff abilities, arguably one of the best buffing and group support classes in the game. They can wear heavy plate armor and carry shields, but are also efficient single target healers, which combine to produce their renowned durability in combat. With talent specialization and equipment selection, Paladins can fill the role of melee DPS, tank, offtank, or healer and excel when called upon to spot-fill all these roles in a group setting.
While a Retribution paladin's DPS is slightly less than a pure dps class, they make up for it with their extremely useful utility spells, buffs and auras. Their three talent trees are Holy, Retribution, and Protection. Paladins are exclusively an alliance class.

Source: http://vanilla-wow.wikia.com/wiki/Class

In vanilla you had every class bringing something important to the table.... tanking raids wasnt a thing of paladins

"While a Retribution paladin's DPS is slightly less than a pure dps class." ROFL

If a politician told you he was gonna launch some new taxes on you, would you vote him?

If they said the actual truth about hybrid classes, the amount of people who would've played them would've been a lot less.

Same here, my GM was an enhance shaman with sulfuras (which he got from a previous guild, but still got it none the less). We also had a high warlord arms warrior in our guild, a balance druid, several hunters and warlocks (who did way more than just summon people and tranq shot magmadar), as well as shamans (incl me) and druids being allowed to heal, and not just ress and innervate. We rarely ever wiped in MC, ZG and onyxia. A few times in BWL only, which all guilds did.

I don't recognize the attitude people here speak about at all, where only holy priests, prot warriors, rogues and mages were invited into raids. Not my guild, and no other guild acted like that. Nobody ever said they felt discriminated based on class, and I saw just as many warlocks decked out in t1/t2 as I saw rogues.

I have a feeling that alot of the people spouting this, actually are just an echo chamber that didn't really play vanilla, but just repeat things they have heard from others, that makes sense to them from a modern perspective, since people would definately have that attitude today.

I'm sorry but your experience is in the minority. The majority of guilds in progression content would min/max and would never waste such amount of slots on subpar specs. MC is a bad example since it was the first the raid and you could do it with 15 people being serious while the others were AFK.

Also you need to take into account that everything is different now because we know which classes/specs are trash and which aren't. There's gonna be a lot less room for those hybrids simply because there will be plenty of rogues, mages and warriors to choose from.

[Deleted]

Only class balances i would like to see is more viable tanks, just 1 tanking class, Warrior makes everyone a loser really.
And Paladin blessings lasting 30min instead of 5min was it?

[Kaver]

A good point. A vanilla server can never truly capture that old vanilla feeling because we're all older and wiser now.

As a side note, I think it would be hilarious to log in to the classic server on launch day to see it completely deserted. Only its not deserted, its filled with thousands of rogues. Nothing but rogues as far as the eye can see.

Exactly

My point is just that if everyone is going to play rogue, then it will not be vanilla will it?

Then it will be WoW pre TBC server.

[Deleted]

I think when Blizzard brought paladins into wows vanilla they thought more of the role paladins played in Warcraft 3 for example:

By the time of Warcraft III, the Paladin had become a separate class, rather than an upgrade. They were less powerful individual units, and were relegated to more of a support role in combat. In-game, they were Hero units, meaning they could gain experience and improve their abilities. They possessed the weakest direct offensive skills of the four Alliance heroes, instead protecting the troops with their aura, healing and resurrection abilities.

This is exactly how i remember paladins from vanilla... and i think everybody who played warcraft 3 had this in mind when he rolled a paladin...not to be the super uber dd or tank.

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"While a Retribution paladin's DPS is slightly less than a pure dps class." ROFL

you forgot about: they make up for it with their extremely useful utility spells, buffs and auras.

[nmarg85]

I think when Blizzard brought paladins into wows vanilla they thought more of the role paladins played in Warcraft 3 for example:

By the time of Warcraft III, the Paladin had become a separate class, rather than an upgrade. They were less powerful individual units, and were relegated to more of a support role in combat. In-game, they were Hero units, meaning they could gain experience and improve their abilities. They possessed the weakest direct offensive skills of the four Alliance heroes, instead protecting the troops with their aura, healing and resurrection abilities.

This is exactly how i remember paladins from vanilla... and i think everybody who played warcraft 3 had this in mind when he rolled a paladin...not to be the super uber dd or tank.

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you forgot about: they make up for it with their extremely useful utility spells, buffs and auras.

The key is in the adjectives. I don't think you understand how marketing works.

[Zan15]

the tears will flood the classic wow ptr and it will no longer be able to call itself classic.

problem is if they do not keep classic PURE, people are still going to be clambering for a TRUE CLASSIC SERVER.

they better release true classic servers, and then adjust from there after people get to absorb classic server reality so they can at least say "hey we gave you classic"

[Army Dreamer]

Class uniqueness? Yes, please.

[Noxina]

So you just want one tank spec? And make hybrids as good as useless? Gotcha.

I honestly see no reason as to why anyone would chose to play a Paladin in classic, knowing how useless they where. All they literally did was buff blessings, and do a DI on the tank to wipe the raid by "accident" because he got too bored of doing blessings.

Though when he had done this for long enough, and obtained full T2 and a nice two hander he could go and reckoning-bomb some poor bad geared player and call it "skill".


Nah, classic will need class balances. They don't need to buff every spec to do the same dps, but atleast make every spec viable so people can play them (lol balance druid?)

[arkanon]

People cry and cry and beg for vanilla servers. Blizzard finally agrees to make them. within a couple weeks, suddenly the goal posts are getting moved:

"YAY VANILLA SERVERS! oh shit.....vanilla servers....now that we are actually getting them, im not even sure i WANT them anymore...i think i do, but i also want A, B, C, D, and maybe even E, all of which exist in retail. BUT I STILL WANT VANILLA, HONEST!"

A lot of ppl claiming they want classic servers, actually want Classic+.

[Aeula]

For me it's a tradeoff longterm versus short term. Providing an authentic vanilla experience is what will draw people in initially but no class changes ever could seriously hurt the game's longevity. I would like class balancing but probably not right away.

This. People will begin to leave if they feel their spec is worthless fluff only fit to support a role that the terrible balancing dictated they perform.

[Kralljin]

Nah, classic will need class balances. They don't need to buff every spec to do the same dps, but atleast make every spec viable so people can play them (lol balance druid?)

The fundamental issue is that you can't just press a button to make them viable.

For example, the main issue of the hybrid casters (Elemental, SP and Balance) wasn't that their spells dealt low damage, but rather they simply went oom after casting for a whole minute.

Now, how you do fix that?

Introduce a talent that massively buffs their mana reg, well how much? Mana was an issue for Mage / Warlock as well, you gotta balance that.

Next to that, remove a talent for that one? For add it to an existing one? How deep is it in the Tree? Will it make a hybrid build for healing more viable than actual heal builds due their mana reg?

You're basically poking the bee hive with even attempting to balance something that is clearly imbalanced without changing too much.

This. People will begin to leave if they feel their spec is worthless fluff only fit to support a role that the terrible balancing dictated they perform.

I think most people that are halfway informed and "survive" until 60 know that they're signing up for.

Or just leave because PvE Content is not amazing.

[Deleted]

So let's get this straight: you don't play private servers but you have memories of Vanilla more recent than when it was retail?

Of course not. Are you really stupid enough to actually think I said that? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[Flarelaine]

So you will have then a few classes doing decent raid damage and with OP tools for pvp and on top of that with much dmg.... when you give certain classes more viable dmg...you have to take away certain class gimmicks in pvp or they will be to OP..... change one thing change it all....

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but abilities behave differently in PvE and PvP lately.

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Prot pala had its use. You went prot for reckoning in pvp because it did way more dmg than ret.
Ret was the useless spec except to splash in for shits and giggles.

... which is why 3.0 was tremendous fun.

[makketota]

Do not change ANYTHING. Even the smallest change will come with the expectation of a balanced vanilla and we are never going to hear the end of it.

[strifemon]

In vanilla you had every class bringing something important to the table.... tanking raids wasnt a thing of paladins

And I didn't say they have to be able to tank raids. You can check original post on p9, looks like the point is missed )

[Deleted]

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but abilities behave differently in PvE and PvP lately.

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... which is why 3.0 was tremendous fun.

bubble lay on hands ermmm wf totem roots etc etc...

[Flarelaine]

A point has gotten me thinking from those who played vanilla I see us anti vanilla players were the ones stuck on crap hybrid classes. I wonder if there's something too this that what we rember is nothing but pain and shit and those pro vanilla were the ones playing the few working classes?

We should have sencus of class played to vanilla opinion see if there's a correlation

The same thought occured to me as well.