Naxxramas 60 vs Naxxramas 80 difficulty?

[Heathy]

I think naxx was hard because of the mechanics, and everyone learned those mechanics from the level 80 version of naxx.

its not like ppl didn't wipe in naxx 25 because they did, a lot. I was still using some tier 6 when starting naxx 10, which wasn't that difficult, but naxx 25 was fun to learn, ppl failed at patchwork and got one shotted, and thaddius at the swap. gluth with the adds, plenty of bosses to fail at.

personally i did alright with the mindcontrol in 25 until they added pillars there too. you just get into a rotation and thats that, you might lose the mindcontrol and have to quickly mind control again but no big deal you try to time that to happen when the other priest is tanking with his add and he re-mindcontrols while your tanking, it all goes to shit if the MC drops while your tanking razuvious. the pet only had like 3 abilities, taunt, block and attack. its not rocket science. back in the day though CC could randomly break so that was probably annoying. fears could end early, mind control could end early and so could sheeps/polymorph.

its like heigan and the dance, once you know the dance the boss isn't so difficult, if you go to that boss first time and don't know the dance theres a high probability that your going to die.

[khalltusk]

Nax 25 was not undertuned. It was tuned as an entry level raid for Wrath. That is why it was so easy. Wrath was also the first expansion where they tried out the Hardmodes/Heroic raiding model and the only hardmode on release was Sarth 3D.

You can't really compare the two raids (40 and 25) due to them being for two different target audiences.

[Heathy]

well you can compare them because they are mechanically identical. its the same raid, the differences are in the numbers. what abilities would kill ppl on each boss or cause a wipe was basically exactly the same. basically ppl not knowing what to do, if you don't kite and kill adds on gluth he heals, if you don't dance on hiegan, you die, if you don't swap places on 4h, the auras kill you.

the mechanics were the same, if you know the mechanics then your less likely to fail and wipe. the main difference is that the players all had better toolkits for naxx 25, better more varied heals, way more aoe healing. when you think in classic there were 2 aoe heals, prayer of healing and chain heal. in wrath every healer could aoe heal. that means there was probably a higher overall aoe damage in naxx 25. lets face it, healing in tbc was harder than healing naxx 40. so by wrath were already one whole expansion ahead on the difficulty increase brought on by a higher average requirement in reaction time.

patchwork was funny in naxx 25 because it was a lot easier for a dps warrior to get 2nd place on the threat. I remember we had some lag doing naxx 25 one week and patchwork would kill all the melees during the lag spike.

[Storfan]

What made Naxx 60 so damn hard was:
1) The need for 40 people
2) Attrition (and yeah, more people also means more attrition)
3) The need for 6 (but realistically 8) geared tanks, several properly geared priests, and generally properly geared everyone
4) Naxx was only live for 6 months before the expansion hit, at a time when the raiding population was very low. I remember every recruit we got was undergeared and underexperienced.

All these things contributed to ensuring very few guilds completed it. Not saying it was "easy", but the organisational aspect was a much bigger factor than the difficulty.

^This very accurately describes the situation of 40man Naxx in late vanilla. Most bosses in 40man naxx are actually pretty easy with the exceptions of Loatheb, 4hm, Sapphiron and KT.

well you can compare them because they are mechanically identical. its the same raid, the differences are in the numbers. what abilities would kill ppl on each boss or cause a wipe was basically exactly the same. basically ppl not knowing what to do, if you don't kite and kill adds on gluth he heals, if you don't dance on hiegan, you die, if you don't swap places on 4h, the auras kill you.

the mechanics were the same, if you know the mechanics then your less likely to fail and wipe. the main difference is that the players all had better toolkits for naxx 25, better more varied heals, way more aoe healing. when you think in classic there were 2 aoe heals, prayer of healing and chain heal. in wrath every healer could aoe heal. that means there was probably a higher overall aoe damage in naxx 25. lets face it, healing in tbc was harder than healing naxx 40. so by wrath were already one whole expansion ahead on the difficulty increase brought on by a higher average requirement in reaction time.

patchwork was funny in naxx 25 because it was a lot easier for a dps warrior to get 2nd place on the threat. I remember we had some lag doing naxx 25 one week and patchwork would kill all the melees during the lag spike.

I dont recall how 4hm was done in 10man or 25man but I'm pretty sure the mechanics wasnt the same as 40man. 4hm in 40man cant be done without 6 tanks. Could you tank them together in wotlk?

[Heathy]

you just swapped like you do for the nightmare dragons in legion i guess, but with 4 tanks, think you did need 4 still in the 25man. perhaps you could ranged tank one of them i can't remember, the point remains though needing 8 tanks was just stupid in the end for a mechanic, that wasn't what made the actual fight hard, or the whole instance for that matter, what made the fights difficult mechanically was what it required from the dps and healing in terms of output and not failing at the actual mechanics of the fights..

I don't understand how needing to either level and gear up new tank alts or steal them from other guilds is even remotely relevant to the difficulty of an instance. thats just busy work and kinda shitty if your just poaching tanks from other guilds. mechanically the fights (most of them) are identical. so what killed you/caused you to wipe in naxx 40 is probably the same thing that caused you to wipe in naxx 25, ppl not standing where they should be or doing what they should be doing. lets combine that with the consumable farming, so the prep work in terms of consumable use was higher, in naxx 25 you most likely didn't need consumables at all but it did make getting boss down faster. in naxx 40 i think you were required to have consumables and getting them took more time than it did getting flasks/food for naxx 25.

so naxx 25 was probably harder than naxx 40 in terms of the required reaction time, no haste during classic, faster hitting bosses at level 80.

but naxx 40 was hard because getting 8 geared tanks took a while and farming stacks of consumables took longer.

naxx 25 was hard for the sake of being challenging at level 80
naxx 40 was time consumingly hard, like most of classic.

[Craaazyyy]

Nax 25 was not undertuned. It was tuned as an entry level raid for Wrath. That is why it was so easy. Wrath was also the first expansion where they tried out the Hardmodes/Heroic raiding model and the only hardmode on release was Sarth 3D.

You can't really compare the two raids (40 and 25) due to them being for two different target audiences.

when the raid is cleared in a day with alot of ppl being in green leveling gear you can say it was severely undertuned.. i cleared it in like 1.5 weeks raiding 4 times a week 3 hours a day..

[khalltusk]

well you can compare them because they are mechanically identical. its the same raid, the differences are in the numbers. what abilities would kill ppl on each boss or cause a wipe was basically exactly the same. basically ppl not knowing what to do, if you don't kite and kill adds on gluth he heals, if you don't dance on hiegan, you die, if you don't swap places on 4h, the auras kill you.

the mechanics were the same, if you know the mechanics then your less likely to fail and wipe. the main difference is that the players all had better toolkits for naxx 25, better more varied heals, way more aoe healing. when you think in classic there were 2 aoe heals, prayer of healing and chain heal. in wrath every healer could aoe heal. that means there was probably a higher overall aoe damage in naxx 25. lets face it, healing in tbc was harder than healing naxx 40. so by wrath were already one whole expansion ahead on the difficulty increase brought on by a higher average requirement in reaction time.

patchwork was funny in naxx 25 because it was a lot easier for a dps warrior to get 2nd place on the threat. I remember we had some lag doing naxx 25 one week and patchwork would kill all the melees during the lag spike.

When I say you can't compare them, I mean in the sense of the tuning. Mechanics are roughly the same aside the boss who you need to MC adds has an orb on 10man I think? This allows you to MC the adds. KTs void zones were also much easier to see, it didnt stop our paladins dying though (ret).

The tuning for the two was made for two different audiences. It was the final raid in Vanilla and made for the top guilds to clear. In Wrath it was the entry level raid made to be cleared by beer league raiders. So was made vastly easier as a result.

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when the raid is cleared in a day with alot of ppl being in green leveling gear you can say it was severely undertuned.. i cleared it in like 1.5 weeks raiding 4 times a week 3 hours a day..

It was made as an entry level raid. The people who cleared it within a day were the top guilds regular guilds cleared it in a few weeks tops. The audience it was made for took a bit longer. It was not undertuned for that audience. For regular raiders or top end guilds sure it was. but it was not aimed at them.

[Craaazyyy]

When I say you can't compare them, I mean in the sense of the tuning. Mechanics are roughly the same aside the boss who you need to MC adds has an orb on 10man I think? This allows you to MC the adds. KTs void zones were also much easier to see, it didnt stop our paladins dying though (ret).

The tuning for the two was made for two different audiences. It was the final raid in Vanilla and made for the top guilds to clear. In Wrath it was the entry level raid made to be cleared by beer league raiders. So was made vastly easier as a result.

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It was made as an entry level raid. The people who cleared it within a day were the top guilds regular guilds cleared it in a few weeks tops. The audience it was made for took a bit longer. It was not undertuned for that audience. For regular raiders or top end guilds sure it was. but it was not aimed at them.

what audience? no raid ever was as easy as Naxx 25.. no raid took top guilds a DAY to clear.. especially considering the amount of bosses Naxx 25 had

regardless who it was aimed for.. its a joke if a raid with so many bosses is getting cleared in 1 day

[Shrouded]

Yeah, Vanilla Naxx was very unforgiving due to the numbers involved. I remember wipe after wipe on Faerlina simply because people couldn't survive more than one tick of damage from her AoEs. We weren't the best raid group, but we managed to clear roughly a third of Naxx before BC - and there was no boss fight in there we considered to be on "farm status". Every time we went in, we were fully aware we could get stuck on Anub'rekhan for most of the night.

But I think that was alright. Obviously Naxx wasn't around for long enough before BC launched, but it was during a time in WoW's history when people were mostly okay with not doing every piece of PvE content. Dungeons were a significant time investment on their own, and because of the relatively stingy loot drops it took a long long time to get all the upgrades you wanted out of any single tier of content. The tier 0.75 questline alone kept people occupied for months.

[khalltusk]

what audience? no raid ever was as easy as Naxx 25.. no raid took top guilds a DAY to clear.. especially considering the amount of bosses Naxx 25 had

The beer league/super casual crowd. There was a lot of people who never saw raids previously or only tip toe'd into them. Blizzard opened the flood gates with Wrath. They experimented with Hardmodes with Sarth3D and continued that with Ulduar then changed it to the heroic selection option later.

[Zigrifid]

And this is why we need classic server that way we can compare the old naxx 40 with the "new" naxx 40 (not the wrath edition)and possible shut some idiots like Kungen who have been busting our balls about classic cause they lost their special snowflake status.

[Altariaz]

Minor detail:



Bloodlust did, but it was Horde only.

Why do posters still get this wrong?

There was no BL or Heroism in Vanilla. It came in with TBC.

[Akka]

Nax 25 was not undertuned. It was tuned as an entry level raid for Wrath. That is why it was so easy.

Yes it was undertuned. Even as an entry-level raid. Dixit the very designers of the game.

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well you can compare them because they are mechanically identical.

Two thirds of the OP are about how they were, actually, not identical.
Did you even bother to read it ?

[sam86]

You don't need to 'detail' it, there was way back when wowinsider was up a vote about hardest raids, top was sunwell, 2nd is naxx
hardest boss in wow history was Entropis, reason why it wasn't KJ because Entropis was so brutal that no one even saw Entropis
Statics wise (if i remember right), less than 1% of total active wow players saw Kel'thuzad 60, in compare less than 0.6% saw KJ, we talk about just 'saw' not kill and put him on farm, Kel'thuzad best world 'record' was 39 player instead of 40, he was insane brutal that even 0.5 sec delay = raid wipe (check his mechanisms urself)

Patchwerk was a healing check more than anything.

Patchwerk was FUCK YOU check, back on my server we used to call him GM killing button, ppl drop like flies in that fight, he hits brutally hard

[khalltusk]

Yes it was undertuned. Even as an entry-level raid. Dixit the very designers of the game.

Honest question, did blizzard claim it was undertuned? From my understanding they said it was tuned like it was for the target audience.

[Akka]

so naxx 25 was probably harder than naxx 40 in terms of the required reaction time, no haste during classic, faster hitting bosses at level 80.

Again, a good deal of the OP is about pointing the exact opposite.
I don't necessarily expect someone to read every post in a thread before posting, but reading the fucking OP, yeah, that's the bare minimum.

Honest question, did blizzard claim it was undertuned? From my understanding they said it was tuned like it was for the target audience.

Yep.
From memory, GC said that Naxx was undertuned sometime during the end of WotLK.

And this is why we need classic server that way we can compare the old naxx 40 with the "new" naxx 40 (not the wrath edition)and possible shut some idiots like Kungen who have been busting our balls about classic cause they lost their special snowflake status.

Or get shut down yourselves when the "it's not harder, it's just longer" BS slams you in the face because you get OS left and right by "easy and simplistic Vanilla fight mechanisms" ?

[Heathy]

Two thirds of the OP are about how they were, actually, not identical.
Did you even bother to read it ?

yes, the fights were pretty similar in most respects the mechanics of the fights, the classes were a whole lot different though. for naxx 40 everyone was at their most basic, by naxx 25 every spec was pretty viable and tool kits were much broader. we had haste, faster combat at level 80, melees could actually pull more threat than the OT.

[Surfd]

well you can compare them because they are mechanically identical. its the same raid, the differences are in the numbers. what abilities would kill ppl on each boss or cause a wipe was basically exactly the same. basically ppl not knowing what to do, if you don't kite and kill adds on gluth he heals, if you don't dance on hiegan, you die, if you don't swap places on 4h, the auras kill you.

No they are not. Mechanically speaking, a good half of the fights were only superficially similar, with the new variations in the mechanics resulting in a much different fight than the original. There were significant changes made mechanically to quite a number of the fights to account for the change in raid sizes. Also the change in raid size alone made a significant difference in the mechanical complexity of many of the encounters, as having 15 or 30 less people taking up space in a room where you need to avoid things or position yourself very specifically drastically reduces margin of error. Thaddeus 40 was a nightmare. Thaddeus 10 man could literally be tank'n'spanked with no motion required from the entire raid once your gear was half decent.

[khalltusk]

Yep.
From memory, GC said that Naxx was undertuned sometime during the end of WotLK.

Thats fair enough, will take a proper look when I get home. But for now will take your word for it. I know they aimed it at beer league people but it is possible they undertuned it for them.

As Ulduar was a huge step up in terms of difficulty. The hard modes were a lot of fun though.

[Akka]

Why do posters still get this wrong?

Because these forums are filled with people who never touched Vanilla but try to act as if they were veterans ?
Especially when it's about Classic realms, where a non-insignificant amount of the posters here are only interested in torpedoing the project ?