Are lootboxes gambling & should games be regulated. BF2 and OW under investigation

[Verdugo]

honestly looks to me like a cheap attempt to get a lot of money from Blizzard and EA twisting the laws and the etimology :| meanwhile there are internet and informatic companies that continue skipping on taxes or paying super reduced versions of em all across Europe (and the World i'd dare presume), and the Old Continent's nations kind of went "oooh we realized it 2 months ago, would ya know? Guys like Apple and Google have huge dark zones concerning their taxes payment and regulamentations? never noticed in the last 20 years while they piled up literally billions of bucks!), but i wouldn't be surprised if the cause of this wasn't always the simple lack of consciousness about internet of the governments, but the fact that after agreeing with those companies someone found magically a limo out of the garaga or Fabergè eggs in the mailbox or whatever with a "thanks dude!" paper on them... anyway pardon me, but if you apply the gambling etimology in the juridic law in the adamantine way you'd want, there would be tons of things in life that would become gambling game, and probably as a side effect becoming VM 18 too (wait works like this everywhere? sorry for the ignorance xD)

Evil government stealing from poor evil corporations. #sad

[Baelic]

No for TCG the company can easily make a card more valuable by making it rarer and making that card more powerful at the same time will also drastically increase the value of the card.

But again, that value is derived from third-party re-sellers and the community. Not from the TCG company directly.

[Vespian]

Well it isn't. Since with Gambling the "risky" action is coming out of it with nothing. Blizzard will likely argue that due to the fact you ALWAYS get a prize in every box it isn't constituted as Gambling and is more along the lines of a Random item Prize. Which is what generally covers TCG's and CCG's since you ALWAYS get something in return.

If I gamble on a Horse, the horse can lose and I lose money.
If I gamble on a Lootbox, I may not get the Item I *want* but I still get an Item.

Getting a butt-hair-wax to domesticate your ass might not equal 'nothing', but it sure is nothing.

Evil government stealing from poor evil corporations. #sad

You're wrong. It's not just to make sure that, in some way, publishers will pay for their behavior, it's also to warn parents, because right now these boxes do not have to show on the box that it contains gambling elements.

It will have more than just financial effect for the government, while it will definitely have a deserved financial effect on publishers.
-edit..er..derp..that was not meant for you.

[Vankrys]

It mite but you got a point. I also wouldn't be surprised if its part of it because Overwatch is bigger then Hearthstone.

Is overwatch bigger than hearthstone? I have no sense of which one is bigger in term of concurrent players and revenue for blizzard. I really don't know.

Overwatch is a one time purchase, with lootbox, while hearthstone have expansion every 4 month. On twitch, viewership seems to favor hearthstone, but perhaps the game is more "watchable" that's why.

[Tydrane]

Its not sorta gambling its 100% gambling.

Sorry, but where is the inherent risk in the action of opening a loot box? Even if you buy loot boxes, you are guaranteed to get something. If the risk is disappointment, well, that isn't something that can be quantified, so it's irrelevant. Compare this with a video poker machine like you'd see at a casino where there actually is inherent risk, because when you press the button to spin the reels, you can lose the amount you bet.

The thing is, even if you're getting duplicates, that's still not 'nothing'. You get currency for duplicates, so each loot box has a quantifiable minimal value, and any increases in that are bonuses. Given the frequency of blue and purple items, I'd say Blizzard are quite generous with the chance and scope of the bonuses you get. Personally, I like when I get currency because I know I can use it to unlock the things that I want, particularly during seasonal events.

Anyway, without an element of risk of some material, quantifiable loss involved, it's not gambling.

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This isn't gambling.

This is the government trying to get their cut.

Spot on. Government's cut from regulated gambling is always the lion's share.

[Devilyaki]

Why not every game on nutaku then as well. They are all seemingly more chance games, at lest the bonus gacha lol

[Rennadrel]

Difference is, in MTG, you can buy and sell cards to and from other people, can't do that in hearthstone...

You want a deck in HS? Better throw money at blizzard or be prepared to farm your ass off for it (which will take ages, if the RNG doesn't love you). Want a specific deck in MTG? You can go buy each individual card directly, with the same currency you would buy packs with, and be done with it.

So yeah, hearthstone should probly be a part of it too.

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Yes, but it protects people all the same. If those companies have to get and maintain a gambling license in every country they want to sell that game in, it may no longer be profitable enough to bother, or profitable at all, to have real money lootboxes in their games, so they stop doing it, and the bullshit ends.

So it's good for us all the same.

Having a fully free option voids Blizzard of any gambling allegations in Hearthstone. Cash is purely pay to not grind.

[Slythan]

Before you decide that you can't get 'nothing' consider that you don't actually own the game. So not only can you get items of no value but you get items of value you don't actually own because you can't actually own a game.

It might also behoove you to consider that payout does not stop it from being gambling. Imagine if all slot machines always paid out at least 5 cents, but took 50 cents to play. Would they stop being gambling?

Loot boxes operate under the exact same psychological manipulation as gambling and should be regulated as such.

[Yunru]

Before you decide that you can't get 'nothing' consider that you don't actually own the game. So not only can you get items of no value but you get items of value you don't actually own because you can't actually own a game.

It might also behoove you to consider that payout does not stop it from being gambling. Imagine if all slot machines always paid out at least 5 cents, but took 50 cents to play. Would they stop being gambling?

Loot boxes operate under the exact same psychological manipulation as gambling and should be regulated as such.

True...and they can take it away at any time they want. Unless they make a law where you cant get banned.

[Tydrane]

Before you decide that you can't get 'nothing' consider that you don't actually own the game. So not only can you get items of no value but you get items of value you don't actually own because you can't actually own a game.

It might also behoove you to consider that payout does not stop it from being gambling. Imagine if all slot machines always paid out at least 5 cents, but took 50 cents to play. Would they stop being gambling?

Loot boxes operate under the exact same psychological manipulation as gambling and should be regulated as such.

Your analogy isn't equal, though. The 5 cents may be compared to the minimum possible value of a loot box (in equivalent in-game currency terms), sure. But then where you fall off the rails is the 50 cents part - there is no absolute exchange rate between the currency used to purchase the loot boxes and the in-game currency. So, with your slot machine example, it is still gambling because there is still the possibility that you can lose 45 cents. You can't open a loot box and get nothing, even if you don't get anything you want.

The game ownership stuff is irrelevant, everyone knows we don't own the game, we hold a license to play the game. If paid loot boxes were the only way to unlock cosmetics, it would be similar but you can get all these things simply by playing the game. You're not paying for the results of the loot box, you're paying for the base potential of the loot box. Blizzard is then giving you free bonuses in the form of higher-quality, higher-value items in the pool of potential results.

I actually work in the gambling industry in Australia, and the suggestion that the loot box system is in need of the same kind of regulation that real gambling is subject to is peak absurdity. I don't necessarily agree that just because something is addictive, that it should be regulated. Gambling should be regulated, not because of gambling addiction but because it is an industry of risk and chance, so a fair amount of fairness in transparency of operations is necessary, and simply because of the large amounts of currency involved in the industry making it a target for criminal activity like money laundering and terrorism financing.

[Kissintel]

According to Merriam-Webster, gambling is defined as (1) to play a game for money or property; to bet on an uncertain outcome, or (2) to stake something on a contingency: take a chance.

No matter how you slice it, loot boxes in any form is gambling and so is any uncertainty in games. However, when people spend money on gambling aspects exclusively, I believe that there is a case to be made for it being subjected to heightened scrutiny, especially where children are involved.

[WskyDK]

I doubt overwatch will see any blowback.
Everything is cosmetic, and we're already seeing repeat costumes from the previous year. Add to that, the algorithm for loot being changed so that you're less likely to see a dupe.

Still wouldn't be surprised to see loot boxes in general being classified with gambling, just seems OW is a bit different in theirs.

[stomination]

You don't get to decide what words mean sorry. Lootbox's is gambling that is a fact backed up by the definition of the word. Not getting what you want is the same as not getting nothing and the definition does not say in order for it to be gambling you get nothing.

There is also many country's that disagree with you. This isn't up for debate words have meanings and this is gambling, Not going to debate more on it.

Well with that definition so is raiding. You never know what you will get.

[StrawberryZebra]

Guess what, people spend hundreds of dollars on trading cards, too! But they're not classified as gambling, because that would be retarded. Loot boxes are exactly the same as opening a pack of trading cards. It's not gambling.

Trading cards are actual pieces of card which one can sell on or, shock horror, even trade to get the cards they do want. One always get a physical thing that's yours to do as you please with. The value of which is dependent on all kinds of outside factors too, if you're looking to build a deck that requires some of the cards you've just opened then you've gotten more than your monies worth. If you open a rare card you don't need, but is valuable to others then you've also got options to get the cards you want/need instead of it.

Bare in mind that TCG's also don't give compulsive gamblers the same rush as winning big at slot machines. The "win" condition varies from person to person with TCG's, but you will always have something of value - Even if that is only the value of the card it's printed on.

No such options exist for lootboxes. If you want that badass looking motorcycle from it, but instead win another beanie hat then you're stuck with that. Your only option to try win again by opening up another lootbox. And another. And another. Until you either get that win or run out of money. The vast supply of beanie hats you've won are, ultimately, worthless. You can't sell them to other people, you can't trade them for other cosmetics you need... Your only real option is to delete them.

Gamblers don't care about the prize they win, they just want that win no matter what. Its why every lootbox you ever open will have exciting looking opening animations, with shaking screens, flashy lights and will ultimately draw out revealing what you've won. They're absolutely trying to recreate that same rush as pulling a slot machine. It's not accidental, they know they're doing it.

There's a blurry line there that game companies want to keep as blurry as possible (while milking that money cow) and governments want to stamp on cos they want their taste. Don't think this is about protecting people. It's all about getting money.

I'm not so sure that it is. In the UK we have some very strict gambling laws put into place to help protect vulnrable gamblers from being exploited. People are outright forbidden to enter bookmakers to place bets, ISP's block them from any online gambling sites and, as far as I know, they're not even alowed to play 2p machines in amusement halls. Companies that have fallen foul of them have had to pay as much as £7.8 million in fines.

For the gamblers that are being protected by these laws, they can still use lootboxes in video games as a substitute for that same rush. If it's decided that lootboxes fall under gambling, then I've no doubt that the laws will be extended to cover them.

Yes, but it protects people all the same. If those companies have to get and maintain a gambling license in every country they want to sell that game in, it may no longer be profitable enough to bother, or profitable at all, to have real money lootboxes in their games, so they stop doing it, and the bullshit ends.

The most obvious effect of having to get a gambling license would be that the age rating on games would go up. Significantly, in some cases. In an industry where publishers do their best to get that rating as low as they can, getting an 18+ rating slapped on a game like Fifa would already have it's own form of backlash before even taking into account lost sales.

[Super Kami Dende]

Well with that definition so is raiding. You never know what you will get.

and you pay $15 a month to do that! GAMBLING!

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According to Merriam-Webster, gambling is defined as (1) to play a game for money or property; to bet on an uncertain outcome, or (2) to stake something on a contingency: take a chance

It's awkward arguing with people who don't understand how Words work in different context. If everything that was simply taking a chance was considered Gambling, simply buying Videogames would be Gamble. because you literally take a Gamble on whether it was worth paying for. Hell talking to people in MMO's are gambling. Since you are taking a Risk to talk to someone that might not talk back under that broad as fuck definition.

[dejec1989]

Loot boxes are worse than Gambling, at least with Gambling I have a chance at something useful, with lootboxes I lose regardless of the outcome, once I stop playing said game I don't get to take any of my "winnings" with me. With gambling I can take all of my "winnings" with me when I leave.

[Schattenlied]

Having a fully free option voids Blizzard of any gambling allegations in Hearthstone. Cash is purely pay to not grind.

Not really? It just makes the free option not subject to it. The paid packs are still technically gambling if other paid lootboxes are.

[Deleted]

Let's say I have 0 credits in Overwatch, and there's an event going on. There's a 3000 credit skin that I'd really want on a "main" character of mine. Well, I grind as much as I can possibly grind, event goes on, I'm nowhere near 3000 credits, and the skin hasn't dropped. I start getting antsy, and start thinking that I should buy lootboxes instead of earning them in the game by actually playing the game. Well, now I'm faced with a dilemma;

Do I buy two boxes for two bucks? I might get it on the first or second box. But if I don't, what do I do then, buy two more? And then, two more? By now, I've bought six, so I could've bought five boxes for five bucks. But what if I buy the five boxes, and get it on the first try? Then I've "wasted" four bucks on four boxes I didn't really need to buy. Or, what if I don't get it, and keep buying the two boxes until I've bought twelve. Well, by now, I could've bought the 11 box set, for ten bucks, and saved a dollar. But what if I bought the 11 box set and got it in the first, second or third box? Again, "wasted" boxes, since I only really wanted the one skin this event. Well, what if I'm really unlucky, and I keep going, buying two 11 box sets and a couple more, and now I'm at 24 boxes. I could've bought the 24 box set for 20 bucks and saved several dollars. But what if I did buy the 24 box set, and got the skin in the first, second or third box? Loads of "wasted" boxes and "wasted" money. And, what if I've been super super unlucky, and end up buying a couple of the 24 box sets, and a couple boxes more. Well, by now I could've just gone ahead and bought the 50 box set for 40 bucks and saved a bunch of money. But, what if I buy the 50 boxes, thinking I'm really super unlucky, and then I get it in the first, second or third box? Loads of "wasted" boxes, loads of "wasted" money. I mean, none of the boxes go to "waste" as such, since they'll have some items, but, since I only really want the one 3000 credit skin...

Sure is a gamble, ain't it?

[Ealyssa]

But again, that value is derived from third-party re-sellers and the community. Not from the TCG company directly.

Wrong. Value is derived from offer and demand.

TCG companies have a monopol on offer. They have 100% control on the value of each of their cards. Third party sellers are just reacting to this rarity, they are in no way in control of it, thus in no way in control of the price.

What you say is like saying stock exchanges are in control of stock's prices, or ebay is in control of the prices of the products on the site. They aren't. They are just the place were the trade is done, not the one fixing at what price this trade is done.

[Barnabas]

Sorry, but where is the inherent risk in the action of opening a loot box? Even if you buy loot boxes, you are guaranteed to get something. If the risk is disappointment, well, that isn't something that can be quantified, so it's irrelevant. Compare this with a video poker machine like you'd see at a casino where there actually is inherent risk, because when you press the button to spin the reels, you can lose the amount you bet.

The thing is, even if you're getting duplicates, that's still not 'nothing'. You get currency for duplicates, so each loot box has a quantifiable minimal value, and any increases in that are bonuses. Given the frequency of blue and purple items, I'd say Blizzard are quite generous with the chance and scope of the bonuses you get. Personally, I like when I get currency because I know I can use it to unlock the things that I want, particularly during seasonal events.

Anyway, without an element of risk of some material, quantifiable loss involved, it's not gambling.

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Spot on. Government's cut from regulated gambling is always the lion's share.

WHAT IS GAMBLING?
The definition of “gambling,” unless changed by statute, consists of any activity with three elements: consideration, chance, and prize. If any one or more of these elements is missing, the activity is not gambling. When you use your money to buy a loot box and you open it that is called gambling since doing that meets all three requirements.