Is Blizzard actively trying to kill the raiding scene?

[Eazy]

Still, doesn't make sense. Blizz got money from our gametime which you pay in advance. And not from what you do in that time you have. So if you go 1000 dungeons or 1 raid doesn't matter.

If 1000 people are doing dungeons and 50 are doing raid then you're probably going to expand the first activity and give these 1000 players something to do, instead of doing something for these 50.

[Ashkiman]

My ilvl is 942 and I only killed 5/9 mythic so far and still progressing on Mistress. Almost everybody in our raid group has roughly the same ilvl but we've been progressing on mistress for 3 weeks without saying "Fuck it, we've already got higher ilvl items than the shit she drops anyway"
Now do you think if there wasn't any tier set bonus, we and other guilds like us would stop raiding? No because nobody cares about tier set bonuses that much.
Hell if tier set bonuses didn't exist I would've been much more motivated because I knew there's at least 1 piece of loot I can be excited for from every boss even at this point of the expansion, but now I know I got 4 fixed slots and even if I get a piece with 10 more ilvl, I still can't replace any of them unless it's the same tier piece.

[Anonymitylol]

just a different way of enjoying the game.

why does raiding have to be the only way to progress ur char?

It doesn't, but it should be the best gear at the end of the day and nothing should come close. You're coordinating 20 players, for 8-24hrs per week schedules, as a unit to down extremely difficult content. The logistics and commitment are above and beyond any other content. Sure a +20 is hard, but you get the reward with much less effort and coordination.

[Nachtigal]

With the announcement of eliminating tier sets, it feels like Blizzard wants to kill off raiding. I know what you are thinking, another player screaming "the sky is falling". But, with BfA and other changes from Legion, it seems Blizzard is steering the game to a more casual, open world sandbox and away from a structured game style, which is what raiding is.

Loot and gear is raining down all over the game. You can even obtain better gear from non raiding content as compared to raid drops. I am a heroic raider but my character probably about 50% non raid gear equipped. These pieces are from my mythic weekly caches, bonus week caches, emissary quests and relinquished gear from the Argus vendor. Heck, if you get lucky enough you can even top mythic level gear from some sources. Really, the only gear that is obtainable only from raiding is tier gear.

Ion said they are not getting rid of titanforging and other mechanics to increase item level from drops. This mechanic plus all the new sources for gear that is equal to or better than raid gear and eliminating tier sets, tells you where they want to take this game.

Raiding is about testing yourself against some of the toughest content in the game. Raiding is what brings people back week after week in order to progress and finally kill the end boss. But loot and gear was the carrot on the stick. It kept you coming back. And the satisfaction of finally downing that boss your team has struggled with is the reason we raid. But getting that epic tier piece, weapon, trinket, etc was the icing on the cake. Tier sets are unique to raiding. If you look at a player and see they are item level 930 but have no tier you can tell they dont raid. But if you look at a player with item level 930 and you see heroic or even mythic tier gear, you know they have beaten some of the hardest content in the game.

There was a time when raiding wasn't the focus of WoW at all.

[primalmatter]

There was a time when raiding wasn't the focus of WoW at all.

Times changed... people disliked feeling challenged in the world and it slowly became toothless and empty.

After they came for dungeons and made them dull and grindy the same way.

Now heroic raiding and mythic raiding with admittedly mythic + stand alone against the derp. Sadly they are loosing ground. Its kind of why I hope they don't fuck up classic and that in a couple of years we can get a tbc server. I am pretty much ready to jump off this sinking ship.

[Deleted]

just a different way of enjoying the game.

why does raiding have to be the only way to progress ur char?

It isn't and that's not his point. I'm so sick of you chumps who do not raid misconstruing arguments of those who do to fit your agenda of free loot and casual play for everyone.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

"Is Blizzard actively trying to kill the raiding scene?"
I doubt it. Let's wait and see what they do with these new artifacts. I suspect that raiding will still have some bonuses/advantages baked in; what they are trying to get away from is having so many slots locked down where you can't get upgrades.

[RoKPaNda]

It's easier for them to try to balance this way, it's less work for them since they don't have to worry about balancing tier sets after the tier is over. They can get away with that because lets be real here, none of us Mythic raiders are going to quit. Nothing has PvE as good as WoW, so we're going to stay regardless. I can't really see anybody below Mythic actually caring.

[Deleted]

I am a heroic raider

I stopped reading right there.


But just for the record: since we know different azerite pieces will have different traits and that these will not titanforge, there is potential for raiding the hardest difficulty you can reasonably do becoming *more*, not less, important. It depends on implementation, really - and we have, at this point, no way of telling what it'll be. If the raid pieces have BiS traits (which they might), your only way to BiS will be, well, actually raiding (mythic).

[Gungnir]

I see a lot of people going "Oh but tier sets are just a hassle when you have higher ilvl pieces otherwise in those slots".
The issue here, is not the tier sets. The issue is that you can do a random world quest and get a titanforged piece that's 20 ilvl's above mythic raiding. For doing nothing at all.
Nothing about the titanforging system is fair nor healthy for the game.
Besides, tier sets have been a staple for MMORPG's for a LONG time. Getting rid of them just because we now have a retarded titanforging system and the fact that they can't change some numbers regarding tierprocs/bonuses is just absolute insanity.


Also, it doesn't even matter that the set 3 pieces that are "azerite infused" or whatever can't titanforge, because the different in ilvl between for example normal to mythic when it's just regarding 3 pieces, isn't much. Especially since you can just have the entire rest of your gear be over mythic level due to sheer dumb luck.
This means that you'll still do a lot more damage than a heroic raider that might not be as lucky with titanforging.

[Deleted]

Also, it doesn't even matter that the set 3 pieces that are "azerite infused" or whatever can't titanforge, because the different in ilvl between for example normal to mythic when it's just regarding 3 pieces, isn't much. Especially since you can just have the entire rest of your gear be over mythic level due to sheer dumb luck.

1. Traits will scale with ilvl. Different items will have different traits, so it's quite possible raid-exclusive traits will be a thing.
2. I dare you to show me a player who is "over mythic level" from all of their welfare 910s proccing TF. Or even not "over", but "at". So, let's say, above 945 ilvl without raiding.

[Dangg]

I see a lot of people going "Oh but tier sets are just a hassle when you have higher ilvl pieces otherwise in those slots".
The issue here, is not the tier sets. The issue is that you can do a random world quest and get a titanforged piece that's 20 ilvl's above mythic raiding. For doing nothing at all.
Nothing about the titanforging system is fair nor healthy for the game.

How often does that happen? If you're mythic raiding consistently you will have higher overall ilvl over someone who is just doing world quest.

[Keltas]

It's easier for them to try to balance this way, it's less work for them since they don't have to worry about balancing tier sets after the tier is over. They can get away with that because lets be real here, none of us Mythic raiders are going to quit. Nothing has PvE as good as WoW, so we're going to stay regardless. I can't really see anybody below Mythic actually caring.

Honestly a couple other mmos (gw2 and ffxiv are ones I've extensively done myself) actually have pretty good boss fights. They just release significantly less raiding content and it has less rewards. It tends to be a bit easier than the later mythic fights, but considering the early ones tend to feel like easy mode loot pinatas, it's pretty close to as good.

People just don't give it a chance, and the raiding communities in those games are a lot harder to break into. Plus a lot of raiders have invested into wow so much and have all their friends here, so jumping to another game for raiding is never going to be an option for them.



Ignore datascape in ffxiv though, that was a really sad raid that was no where near the other raids they've released, and ultimate bahamut was pretty insane.

[Gungnir]

1. Traits will scale with ilvl. Different items will have different traits, so it's quite possible raid-exclusive traits will be a thing.
2. I dare you to show me a player who is "over mythic level" from all of their welfare 910s proccing TF. Or even not "over", but "at". So, let's say, above 945 ilvl without raiding.

Having raid-exclusive traits would go against Blizzards policy of not having raid-exclusive content anymore.
Also, check out pretty much any decent M+ player that's solely been doing that since launch. Most of them are at 940 or above.

How often does that happen? If you're mythic raiding consistently you will have higher overall ilvl over someone who is just doing world quest.

Correction, you SHOULD have higher overall ilvl, but that is definitely not guaranteed. I've seen people in my guild come back after a 4 month hiatus and get up to 930 - 940 due to lucky titanforging from relinquished vendor and M+. How this is fair in anyones world is beyond me.

[bison91]

just a different way of enjoying the game.

why does raiding have to be the only way to progress ur char?

If they remove that then there should be some alternative. I don't see any, only removal.

[Deleted]

Having raid-exclusive traits would go against Blizzards policy of not having raid-exclusive content anymore.
Also, check out pretty much any decent M+ player that's solely been doing that since launch. Most of them are at 940 or above.

There is no such policy, except perhaps in your imagination. Unless you can post bluepost of Blizzard stating this policy...?

And "decent M+ players", i.e. those who are farming high level M+ and have good ranks are not casuals, they're actually dedicated and skilled players (who, btw, usually also farm at least heroic for trinkets/tier).

Correction, you SHOULD have higher overall ilvl, but that is definitely not guaranteed. I've seen people in my guild come back after a 4 month hiatus and get up to 930 - 940 due to lucky titanforging from relinquished vendor and M+. How this is fair in anyones world is beyond me.

930+ isn't anything special, I'm 932 on my char, and I returned from hiatus 2 weeks ago and don't have time to raid. It's considered low and it's actually fairly hard to get into a random 10+ mythic with such low gear (about 10-15 applications per accept, as dps ofc). Decently geared chars start above 940.

Actually breaking 940 with gear that is good and not just random crap you put on just because of ilvl requires some time and luck, simply because of diminishing returns: i.e. while it's piss easy to get 910-930 gear, it takes much more time to get 930++ apart from the one per week freebie. And you definitely want to do high M+ and/or raid to facilitate that, otherwise good luck filling it with random craptacular token items TFing from 910 ;D

[Deleted]

Afaik they are making the game raid or die again in BFA since those azerite thingies only drop in raids.

[Dystemper]

With the announcement of eliminating tier sets, it feels like Blizzard wants to kill off raiding. I know what you are thinking, another player screaming "the sky is falling". But, with BfA and other changes from Legion, it seems Blizzard is steering the game to a more casual, open world sandbox and away from a structured game style, which is what raiding is.

Loot and gear is raining down all over the game. You can even obtain better gear from non raiding content as compared to raid drops. I am a heroic raider but my character probably about 50% non raid gear equipped. These pieces are from my mythic weekly caches, bonus week caches, emissary quests and relinquished gear from the Argus vendor. Heck, if you get lucky enough you can even top mythic level gear from some sources. Really, the only gear that is obtainable only from raiding is tier gear.

Ion said they are not getting rid of titanforging and other mechanics to increase item level from drops. This mechanic plus all the new sources for gear that is equal to or better than raid gear and eliminating tier sets, tells you where they want to take this game.

Raiding is about testing yourself against some of the toughest content in the game. Raiding is what brings people back week after week in order to progress and finally kill the end boss. But loot and gear was the carrot on the stick. It kept you coming back. And the satisfaction of finally downing that boss your team has struggled with is the reason we raid. But getting that epic tier piece, weapon, trinket, etc was the icing on the cake. Tier sets are unique to raiding. If you look at a player and see they are item level 930 but have no tier you can tell they dont raid. But if you look at a player with item level 930 and you see heroic or even mythic tier gear, you know they have beaten some of the hardest content in the game.

Raiding was only ever done by a very small percentage of the 0layer base. High end raiding by maybe 3%, Normal and Heroic at the very most by 20% People just done have the time any more to commit to a raiding schedule .

[Deleted]

Raiding was only ever done by a very small percentage of the 0layer base. High end raiding by maybe 3%, Normal and Heroic at the very most by 20% People just done have the time any more to commit to a raiding schedule .

I'm personally still salty about them killing 10-man heroic. Even with all the bullshit balancing issues, running a semi-casual (i.e. just clearing stuff while current, at their own pace) 10-man heroic team on a small/medium server, or in a non-English speaking guild, was feasible. 20-man mythic isn't. Guilds died, some merged, some moved, people dropped out. The population of players raiding the highest difficulty ended up shrinking.

[TheVaryag]

With the announcement of eliminating tier sets, it feels like Blizzard wants to kill off raiding. I know what you are thinking, another player screaming "the sky is falling". But, with BfA and other changes from Legion, it seems Blizzard is steering the game to a more casual, open world sandbox and away from a structured game style, which is what raiding is.

Loot and gear is raining down all over the game. You can even obtain better gear from non raiding content as compared to raid drops. I am a heroic raider but my character probably about 50% non raid gear equipped. These pieces are from my mythic weekly caches, bonus week caches, emissary quests and relinquished gear from the Argus vendor. Heck, if you get lucky enough you can even top mythic level gear from some sources. Really, the only gear that is obtainable only from raiding is tier gear.

Ion said they are not getting rid of titanforging and other mechanics to increase item level from drops. This mechanic plus all the new sources for gear that is equal to or better than raid gear and eliminating tier sets, tells you where they want to take this game.

Raiding is about testing yourself against some of the toughest content in the game. Raiding is what brings people back week after week in order to progress and finally kill the end boss. But loot and gear was the carrot on the stick. It kept you coming back. And the satisfaction of finally downing that boss your team has struggled with is the reason we raid. But getting that epic tier piece, weapon, trinket, etc was the icing on the cake. Tier sets are unique to raiding. If you look at a player and see they are item level 930 but have no tier you can tell they dont raid. But if you look at a player with item level 930 and you see heroic or even mythic tier gear, you know they have beaten some of the hardest content in the game.

Easy, they want more casuals to do Mythic+ as the new scource of high end best gear, rather then raiding. It's catoring to casuals, simple as that. People who want little effort for big rewards that's their new playerbase since Cataclysm.

I agree Raiding should be the only place you go to to get the best gear and especially good looking Tier sets (Wish they weren't just recolours every different difficulty level and just give us a colouring tool) that give nice bonuses, It has me worried they remove such essential things from WoW and forget what makes WoW WoW. I mean they clearly forgot alot of good things, and we as the players had to remind them and be like "Hey guys, here's Vanilla, remember that? We had buffs, classes menth something, so did proffesions, remember that?" and at least they're adding buffs back again, cause I hated to just have a passive buff around me for everyone.

I hope the Nost team and the other vanilla enthusiasts keep reminding them of the good ol mechanics and things about the older versions of the game that should be kept In the game, like Raid Tiers.

And while on the subject of gear, screw leaving pvp templates In. Give us back pvp gear for high end, It feels shit to be playing PvP for 6 months, and then have a casual sod come In and within a week be on the same gear/power level as me, whose played this for 6 months because he was boosted through Mythic+ (Which is PvE content) to be stronger In PvP content. Bull... potatoes. You PvP to be -stronger- and -better- than others, cause you pimp out your gear, you tweek your stats how you like and customize that gear, but you can't do that anymore and won't In BfA.