Senator Al Franken accused of sexual assault

[Dextroden]

Fuck me for being right. I was joking when I said it will be acceptable as long as only one person accuses you of sexual misconduct or assault.

Listen to Cubby. If you only do it to one person, nothing wrong happened.

[Dacien]

Given that he apologized, the woman accepted it, and no one else has come forward, I think I can forgive him.

Forget about it? No. This is still a stain on his reputation and should not be forgotten about.

Well said. I don't absolve Franken of anything, but asking for his Senate seat is just a really extreme request in my eyes. If a pattern of behavior emerges, or new details emerge, obviously things can change.

We've got to be willing in our discourse to treat these things the way courts treat behavior. In courts, they've got different degrees for burglary, for example. They understand that breaking into a liquor store after hours is still burglary the same as breaking into someone's home, but they separate those behaviors by 1st degree or 2nd degree because one is much more serious than the other, and sentence people accordingly.

When you're dealing with putting someone in prison, sussing out the degree of severity of the crime is critical, the mitigating factors, the attitude of the person. I think this same sort of analysis should be utilized when deciding whether or not we should be stripping someone of their Senate seat.

[Breccia]

This is a legitimate opportunity for him to show he takes responsibility where others do not. That's what good people who commit indiscretions do.

I get where you're going with that. Zero tolerance and all. I really do.

But unfortunately, when one party -- let's say "the Trump Party" and not blame all of Republicans for now -- have decided that gross, blatant corruption is okay; that intentionally working with hostile foreign governments is okay; that abandoning the rest of the world in exchange for Dark Ages religion and lack of science is okay; and that raping a child is okay...then, sorry, but any opposing parties, Democrat or Republican, cannot afford to thin their ranks over something like this.

I know you don't like it. I know it goes against decent morals and ethics. I get that. But if you're in a war, and one side brings a soldier home for a scratch while the other side dopes up their mortally wounded, gives them suicide vests, and sends them back onto the battlefield, the side that plays fair is going to lose.

Losing to Trump's Party is unacceptable. Ejecting Franken for something this comparatively minor, when Trump and his team are doing far, far worse and getting standing ovations, is not acceptable.

The voters are going to have to decide this. I don't make the rules.

[Endus]

My take;

On the kiss, she pretty clearly admits that she consented to being kissed. He surprised her with the skit change, she approved it, he wanted to practice the kiss, she said "okay", he took it further than she wanted it to, she said "no", he said "okay", and that was that. She was consenting, until she wasn't, and he respected that. He might have been a little pushy, but that's not automatically sexual assault. Maybe he was writing it in because he thought she was hot and he was being a creep, I can totally see that, but she said "okay", and that's what matters, in the end.

On the photo; it's creepy, but the "joke" is on Franken, if anything. It's meant to make him look like a douchebag, as near as I can tell. Still a dick thing to do if she's asleep, because it's "actual douchebag" not "staged douchebag". But the photo also makes it look like he's hover-handing her; his palms are DEFINITELY not on her, and even the fingertips look like they're not quite touching. Plus, she's wearing body armor. So as shitty as the photo looks, I don't see it as sexual assault either. Reason to think less of Franken? Sure. Reason to call for an ethics investigation? Sure. Do I think he'll get charged? Nah, though he may get pressured to step down, particularly in this political climate. Which is unfortunate, because he's otherwise been a pretty solid Senator.

Is this comparable to raping a 14-year old girl, a la Roy Moore? Fuckno. Not even a little bit. Huge false equivalence, particularly as Moore is being a shit about the accusations, while Franken is apologizing for what happened and supports being investigated over it.

[Underverse]

Pestering someone into kissing you, who clearly doesn't want to do it, is not a normal human interaction. If someone is into the idea of kissing you, it doesn't take much effort to convince them. And I don't know how you were socialized as a child, but I wouldn't consider ramming your tongue down a reluctant persons throat as something a properly socialized person would do.

Your post is a steaming pile of rationalized dogshit.

Disagree. I've been in many circumstances where someone else's persistence has changed my mind. People are responsible for what they consent to. As soon as we divest this responsibility, we become a society of emotional children where everything is always someone else's fault.

Maybe Franken sucks at kissing. In either case, if you're arguing that the 'degree of kiss' is what is wrong here, you've already lost. Go split hairs somewhere else.

[Deletedaccount1]

Fuck me for being right. I was joking when I said it will be acceptable as long as only one person accuses you of sexual misconduct or assault.

Listen to Cubby. If you only do it to one person, nothing wrong happened.

Well he/she is saying that there isn't enough evidence compared to the other notable accusations because there is only one but he is ignoring that he has written an apology where he did not contest how the events transpired as well as pretty clear photographic evidence. When someone tells me that what I am looking at right in front of my eyes is not what I'm actually seeing, I don't really know what to say.

[Skroe]

Which is why I added the "on the flipside" as the last sentence in my quote there. I see your point, and do agree, but that HAS to be a part then and be called out against Dump every chance we get, alongside the even more-dangerous Russian collusion aspect! (BTW. I see you're back to not assuming he's going to be caught for collusion. I don't agree at this point [to me, it's more a question of will it be announced before or durring his presidency]... but you're making very wise and smart choice to keep your expectations down and "on target". Hope I'm not making a mistake in mine! ;P)

If you cornered me, I'd probably tell you I think he'd be going down for collusion and financial crimes as well. There is a compelling argument to take a shotgun approach to charges.

But the Trumpkins are intrinsically dishonest people who do not care what people say and lie very easily. How many times a week do we get some of those losers pretending WE'RE the ones saying "oh he's going to be impeached in the next 5 days guiz". They know we don't say that shit. They lie because they have no argument. Because they're bad people. At their core. They're really rotten people.

When the case is made against Trump there will be some things we all expected to be on the list of accusations. It will also be missing some things. And because they are liars by trade, they will use that. For example, I fully expect, if Mueller does NOT explicitly include collusion to deny that Trump took part in any collusion, even if he did obstruct.

In otherwords, anything we say we think will happen, that doesn't, they'll weaponize.

So I've chosen to adopt an approach whereby I'm sticking to the one thing that is most likely, even if in my heart of hearts, I believe there will be way more. But I'm not going to let them use that. It'll be obstruction. That's all we need. Anything else digs the grave of the Trump administration deeper, and that's just gravy.

[Underverse]

Since you're talking broad picture I have to ask this question... you do realize that Kevin Spacey, who is one of the prime focuses of what's going on right now with the sexual assault charges, is being accused of sexual assault by MEN... right?

Sure. That first part applies to men too. People just generally make the argument about women because that's much more common.

[Blur4stuff]

I'm glad Franken responded the way he did. It's incredibly refreshing given how almost everyone else (Spacey, Trump, Moore, etc...) reacted to their accusers.

[Dextroden]

Well he/she is saying that there isn't enough evidence compared to the other notable accusations because there is only one but he is ignoring that he has written an apology where he did not contest how the events transpired as well as pretty clear photographic evidence. When someone tells me that what I am looking at right in front of my eyes is not what I'm actually seeing, I don't really know what to say.

I had said as a joke that George must not have been guilty because people kept saying that only one person accused him. I didn't expect people to actually use that as further defense.

In the face of photographic proof and an ADMISSION OF GUILT. Fuck. Cubby even tried to say it was a joke to defend it. The guy that got triggered by the phrase "locker room talk". Different sides of the same fucking coin.

[Underverse]

Well he/she is saying that there isn't enough evidence compared to the other notable accusations because there is only one but he is ignoring that he has written an apology where he did not contest how the events transpired as well as pretty clear photographic evidence. When someone tells me that what I am looking at right in front of my eyes is not what I'm actually seeing, I don't really know what to say.

But he did contest the events. He clearly said that that's not how he remembered it. Of course, it happened a long time ago so in either case memory is not the best metric.

As for the photograph, hovering your hands over someone's fully clothed chest is not sexual assault. Creepy? Sure. Weird? Idk, it's supposed to be a comedy shot. So this seems really irrelevant to me.

[Tinykong]

Clearly look at his left hand. His left ring finger is even resting on her chest. The right hand too.

It really doesn't look like he is touching her, the only area where it looks like contact is being made is his left ring finger, and even that is questionable and incidental contact. He is clearly not groping her breast.

[Skroe]

@Skroe, I understand your point of view about wanting him to resign. What are your thoughts about the ethics investigation he called for on himself?

Should a resignation wait until after their findings, or before? Just curious what your opinion is, as I personally don't think it is unfair to wait until after their findings but can certainly understand the opposing view point.

I think he should resign at the end of the investigation, regardless of what it finds. He should state that ahead of time, before it starts.

Investigations are important. They're what separates open societies from places like Russia. He should be be carefully examined in that investigation. But regardless of the outcome, he should resign. And he should make clear from the outset that is his intention.

And why do the investigation at all? Transparency. Al Franken gets to say he'll open himself up when Donald Trump won't.

[Beazy]

Comedians are sexually weird man. . . . . . At least hes not a pedo.

If nothing else comes out about Franken, we might want to give him a pass on this one and not push to burn him alive.
Maybe he can resign and set an example. /shrug

[Deletedaccount1]

I'm glad Franken responded the way he did. It's incredibly refreshing given how almost everyone else (Spacey, Trump, Moore, etc...) reacted to their accusers.

It is better than flat out denying it if it is true but he spent a large part of his statement drawing attention away from himself and he probably won't face any serious consequences for what he did so it will cost him all that much.

I mean this in the least condescending way possible when I say that you guys on here don't understand the scope and ridiculousness of things like this. I used to have a low level State Department job overseas where I could lose my security clearance permanently for leaving a door unlocked. Consequences start to disappear in the government the higher up you go and it is a really perverse thing to watch when you have actually worked in it.

[kaelleria]

The worst part about this is there will be those on the right that use it to muddy the waters around Moore. I would hate to see this allow Moore to get elected because Fox News trumpets this incident for the next month.

[Dextroden]

Comedians are sexually weird man. . . . . . At least hes not a pedo.

If nothing else comes out about Franken, we might want to give him a pass on this one and not push to burn him alive.
Maybe he can resign and set an example. /shrug

No, we have to burn everyone that has people accuse them because we're supposed to take accusations seriously. That's why everyone is mad for not believing the people that accused Moore, right?

[Deletedaccount1]

But he did contest the events. He clearly said that that's not how he remembered it. Of course, it happened a long time ago so in either case memory is not the best metric.

As for the photograph, hovering your hands over someone's fully clothed chest is not sexual assault. Creepy? Sure. Weird? Idk, it's supposed to be a comedy shot. So this seems really irrelevant to me.

His full statement didn't contain a different series of events. Maybe he will tell his side of the story eventually but I doubt she was lying.

To me, it looks like he is touching her not just hovering. Several other people in the thread have said the same thing.

[Levelfive]

Are there new accusations about Moore? Because while he is undoubtedly a repugnant douchebag with a teenager fetish, I have not read where he raped anyone, but rather with the 14 year old that there was "sexual touching." Aside from that, what Franken did is bad--these fine detail arguments are beyond awkward: well she mostly consented, well he's not necessarily grabbing her breasts while she's sleeping...I mean, he's not even defending himself. I appreciate how he's responding, but yeah, this is not great.

[Deletedaccount1]

Oh boy Sylvester Stallone is now accused of making a 16 year old give him head. Everybody hop threads.