Vanilla wasn't hard, it was annoying

[Akka]

What is difficult about that? It's simply tedious to do.

It's the perfect example of the convoluted twisting of definitions and arguments to pretend that something "isn't harder" despite it requiring more planning and efforts to pull off.
Bad faith or stupidity, that's the only question worth asking.

I never said current leveling was that hard, but you can still over pull and die.

The difference is that Vanilla required you to somewhat pay attention or die while leveling, while current leveling is rather "you might perhaps die if you try very very hard to do so".
That's, like, textbook example of difference in difficulty.

[God Save The King]

It's the perfect example of the convoluted twisting of definitions and arguments to pretend that something "isn't harder" despite it requiring more planning and efforts to pull off.
Bad faith or stupidity, that's the only question worth asking.

The difference is that Vanilla required you to somewhat pay attention or die while leveling, while current leveling is rather "you might perhaps die if you try very very hard to do so".
That's, like, textbook example of difference in difficulty.

I said it was dangerous, not hard. Not sure why you feel the need to say I'm either acting in bad faith or I am stupid.

Obviously you do not care to discuss, if that is how you enter a discussion.

[RapBreon]

What is difficult about that? It's simply tedious to do. I never said current leveling was that hard, but you can still over pull and die.

Easiest way for me to describe it is: How many mistakes can you make before dying? In the case of Vanilla leveling compared to Legion, a lot less. I'm not really saying its hard (at least for me as difficulty is subjective), but Vanilla did require less mistakes by virtue of patience...which I would call a 'skill check' of sorts.

[God Save The King]

Easiest way for me to describe it is: How many mistakes can you make before dying? In the case of Vanilla leveling compared to Legion, a lot less. I'm not really saying its hard (at least for me as difficulty is subject), but Vanilla did require less mistakes by virtue of patience...which I would call a 'skill check' of sorts.

I can concede that. It is a different kind of difficulty to me. It requires patience and time, not some understanding of class ability and rotational skill, since neither really existed back then. (Obviously some exceptions exist, like Frost Mage).

[Akka]

I said it was dangerous, not hard. Not sure why you feel the need to say I'm either acting in bad faith or I am stupid.

=> "it wasn't harder, you just had to only fight one mob by one, and rest afterward because you lost half your health. But that's not harder than when you can run into a pack of 10 mob and lolaoe them down and ends up full health"

Speaks pretty much for itself. If you can't see what's completely nonsensical in this, then you might wish to get your grasp of fundamental concepts in order.

"it's not bigger, it's just of a larger size"

[God Save The King]

=> "it wasn't harder, you just had to only fight one mob by one, and rest afterward because you lost half your health. But that's not harder than when you can run into a pack of 10 mob and lolaoe them down and ends up full health"

Speaks pretty much for itself. If you can't see what's completely nonsensical in this, then you might wish to get your grasp of fundamental concepts in order.

"it's not bigger, it's just of a larger size"

More insults. This is constructive.

Danger =/= Hard. It's not hard to walk through a ghetto with a bag full of money, just dangerous. It's not hard to kill stuff in vanilla, just dangerous if you pull extras.

[Gandrake]

Basically like having a second job, a major annoyance

oh you mean what they turned raiding into with their legendary participation trophies confirmed by blue post as optional but deemed as actually completely mandatory by the community for entry level telegraphed script puzzle solving?

[Akka]

Easiest way for me to describe it is: How many mistakes can you make before dying? In the case of Vanilla leveling compared to Legion, a lot less. I'm not really saying its hard (at least for me as difficulty is subjective), but Vanilla did require less mistakes by virtue of patience...which I would call a 'skill check' of sorts.

Not just about patience. It also requires more awareness and more decision-making.

Legion leveling is faceroll, you can just spam one button and ends up full health (and if not, you'll be at full health five seconds later). Something unexpected happens (you grab aggro on two more mobs ?), well, basically nothing change, youj lolAoE them down or just continue to spam. You'll maybe ends up with 75 % health instead of 90 %. Nothing actually changed.

In Vanilla ? Not the same. I can only safely handle one or two mob. The fight takes more time and will leave me at a lower health, which will regen much more slowly, so I need to keep that in mind to not find myself killed by any unexpected situation (typically : I end up a fight at 10 % health, then some wandering monster walk by => immediate danger of dying).
I get too many adds ? I need to actually completely change what I have to do. I might need to use CD to SURVIVE, which means I won't have them later if something else happens. I might have to flee, which either requires another CD or might require actual gameplay (fleeing when you play a warrior is especially tricky).
That's much more actual involvement in Vanilla case, and for a much more restricted situation (I need to pull a whole bunch of mob to be in any kind of danger in Legion, while in Vanilla it can be tricky with simply two mobs).
It's not patience, it's tactics, it's awareness, and in case the shit hits the fan it's thinking on your feet.

Managing three mobs in Vanilla takes more actual skill than AoEing down whole packs in Legion. And yes, actual skills, neither "tediousness" nor "patience".

[Rupenbritz]

More insults. This is constructive.

Danger =/= Hard. It's not hard to walk through a ghetto with a bag full of money, just dangerous. It's not hard to kill stuff in vanilla, just dangerous if you pull extras.

I gotta say you're kinda far off..

If you are grinding for gold by killing mobs for example.
In Vanilla you kill them one by one, bandage inbetween and/or eat. With cooldowns you can maybe kill the 2 extras you accidentally pulled. Your cooldowns are 5-15min.
In retail you can pull 5+ mobs and AoE them down, bandage/eat. With cooldowns you can take the whole camp of 15+. Your cooldowns are 2-5min.

Do you not think that is a difference in how easy a game is?

[God Save The King]

I gotta say you're kinda far off..

If you are grinding for gold by killing mobs for example.
In Vanilla you kill them one by one, bandage inbetween and/or eat. With cooldowns you can maybe kill the 2 extras you accidentally pulled. Your cooldowns are 5-15min.
In retail you can pull 5+ mobs and AoE them down, bandage/eat. With cooldowns you can take the whole camp of 15+. Your cooldowns are 2-5min.

Do you not think that is a difference in how easy a game is?

Different kind of difficulty, as I've said. So yes, I think there is a difference, as I have said thrice in this thread alone.

[Akka]

More insults. This is constructive.

You're either not understanding concepts or playing dumb. That is not constructive either.

Danger =/= Hard. It's not hard to walk through a ghetto with a bag full of money, just dangerous. It's not hard to kill stuff in vanilla, just dangerous if you pull extras.

Surviving danger = hard.
It's not hard to walk through a ghetto with a bag full of money. It's harder to walk through the ghetto with your bag full of money and leave unscathed than it is to walk through a ghetto without said bag and leave unscathed.

That's pretty obvious, and I can't really believe you're arguing from a position of good faith when you pretend not to notice this.

[God Save The King]

You're either not understanding concepts or playing dumb. That is not constructive either.

Surviving danger = hard.
It's not hard to walk through a ghetto with a bag full of money. It's harder to walk through the ghetto with your bag full of money and leave unscathed than it is to walk through a ghetto without said bag and leave unscathed.

That's pretty obvious, and I can't really believe you're arguing from a position of good faith when you pretend not to notice this.

Okies, clear you have little to offer outside of insults and the same rehashed argument over and over again. Good day. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You are clearly conflating difficulty and danger, which are two different concepts in video game terms. If you want to say they are the same, for whatever reason, then sure, vanilla was "harder" if you say that "hard" = "dangerous".

[Akka]

Okies, clear you have little to offer outside of insults and the same rehashed argument over and over again. Good day. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

There is no "agree to disagree", you're just conceptually wrong. It's not up to opinion, it's up to definition.
You're pretending that someone who needs to be more cautious, who will die more easily if a makes a mistake in a situation where mistakes happens more quickly and more often, who will have to take more drastic steps to manage a situation, is not in a situation where his survival is harder.
That's just nonsensical. In the truest meaning of the word : makes no sense.

But of course it's easier to hide behind "hey you insult !".

[Rupenbritz]

Okies, clear you have little to offer outside of insults and the same rehashed argument over and over again. Good day. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You are clearly conflating difficulty and danger, which are two different concepts in video game terms. If you want to say they are the same, for whatever reason, then sure, vanilla was "harder" if you say that "hard" = "dangerous".

At this point it seems you are just trolling :/

[Deleted]

I think wildstar showed us that being hard isn't what gamers want. It's about fun.

wildstar showed that being hard by being tedious is not enjoyable. Hard bosses with the combat system was okay. It also didn't reward you properly for doing hard content.
There were a few things like that in vanilla too. There is a clear difference between hard requiring skill and hard by tediousness.

[Rupenbritz]

If it genuinely means so much to you, sure, you can say Vanilla was "harder". I doesn't really matter to me if you don't want to see the subtle differences between difficulty, danger, hardness, endurance, stamina, etc, all in terms of gaming experience.

Thing is. I raided BWL/AQ40/Naxx in Vanilla. I raided everything including Hyjal/BT/SW in TBC. I raided everything including ICC 25 HC in WLK. I raided everything 10man HC in Cata. I raided everything including SoO 25 HC in MoP. I raided Highmaul 25 Mythic in WoD before finally quitting WoW.

I think with my experience, my opinion in this matter has some value. I do understand that 12 years is a long time to remember, and I was younger sure.
But honest to god Vanilla was without doubt the hardest era of the game overall. When it came to raiding I think WLK hit the hardspot with Heroics. But the game was way more casual already, and it just got worse and worse over time.

[RapBreon]

Not just about patience. It also requires more awareness and more decision-making.

Legion leveling is faceroll, you can just spam one button and ends up full health (and if not, you'll be at full health five seconds later). Something unexpected happens (you grab aggro on two more mobs ?), well, basically nothing change, youj lolAoE them down or just continue to spam. You'll maybe ends up with 75 % health instead of 90 %. Nothing actually changed.

In Vanilla ? Not the same. I can only safely handle one or two mob. The fight takes more time and will leave me at a lower health, which will regen much more slowly, so I need to keep that in mind to not find myself killed by any unexpected situation (typically : I end up a fight at 10 % health, then some wandering monster walk by => immediate danger of dying).
I get too many adds ? I need to actually completely change what I have to do. I might need to use CD to SURVIVE, which means I won't have them later if something else happens. I might have to flee, which either requires another CD or might require actual gameplay (fleeing when you play a warrior is especially tricky).
That's much more actual involvement in Vanilla case, and for a much more restricted situation (I need to pull a whole bunch of mob to be in any kind of danger in Legion, while in Vanilla it can be tricky with simply two mobs).
It's not patience, it's tactics, it's awareness, and in case the shit hits the fan it's thinking on your feet.

Managing three mobs in Vanilla takes more actual skill than AoEing down whole packs in Legion. And yes, actual skills, neither "tediousness" nor "patience".

Well I wasn't giving an all-encompassing list, leveling wise? Sure Vanilla required more awareness as pulling extra was a mistake harder to recover from. 'Difficult content wise' (Raiding, M+)? Pft, no. Legion checked awareness way more. Same for decision making.

Again though, convincing me that Vanilla is harder in terms of player skill (in the holistic sense, rather than sub-concepts) as a whole game, you're not going to get far without using that expacs 'most challenging content'. That is to say raiding or PvP. I've already argued that leveling is harder due to the decreased margin for error, well before I seen this thread.

What's the easiest way to describe Legion vs. Classic? Oh! I know! Legion: The easier stuff is easier and the harder stuff is harder!

Which come to think of it, was most likely their intended goal.

[Akka]

At this point it seems you are just trolling :/

Reminds me of the post I made there :

No, it's more the moving goalpost of the anti-Vanilla crowd which redefines what "difficulty" means on the fly so to exclude whatever was in Vanilla. You can sum up 90 % of their argument with "X isn't making the game more difficult, just more tedious". Replace "X" with whatever the guy wants to discard. And so we often reach comically stupid argument like "having a mob with higher damage and HP doesn't make the game harder". Sure, mate, sure.

[Rupenbritz]

Reminds me of the post I made there :

No, it's more the moving goalpost of the anti-Vanilla crowd which redefines what "difficulty" means on the fly so to exclude whatever was in Vanilla. You can sum up 90 % of their argument with "X isn't making the game more difficult, just more tedious". Replace "X" with whatever the guy wants to discard. And so we often reach comically stupid argument like "having a mob with higher damage and HP doesn't make the game harder". Sure, mate, sure.

I agree, like what makes the game harder if not being more unforgiving?
Adds (target swapping), movement (from spells/bombs) only apply to boss fights. Not the game overall.

Grinding was much harder in vanilla. This alone meant;
1. Slower levelling
2. Slower rep farming
2. Slower gold farming
3a. Dungeons took longer
3b. Gearing takes longer

[Deleted]

More effort - felt more rewarding. Granted it was a grind and the preparation was more often than not harder and longer than the actual encounter but that was the point. It was imersive, you wanted to do a dungeon, you as that character had to manually advertise and physically travel there. Non of this instant jumps.
Vanilla was about the journey, unlike retail which is all about the reward. You were that character. It was a 2nd life to some people. Something that alot of people don't understand about the "purists"