Are lootboxes gambling & should games be regulated. BF2 and OW under investigation

[RyanEX]

It wouldnt stand on any ground unlike this. Give me one example of a pokemon game that makes you use money to gamble. I mean the only gambling thing in the games were like random moves like fissue and horn drill lmao.

It was based off the card game, like Yugioh and Magic. Paying money for a pack of random cards and such.

[kenn9530]

Its not sorta gambling its 100% gambling.

how is it gambling when if you buy something you always get something out of it, there is no avenue for losing,

[Rennadrel]

Not really? It just makes the free option not subject to it. The paid packs are still technically gambling if other paid lootboxes are.

No, they aren't. You have the same chance to get the same cards whether you buy packs for free or with real currency. There is no gamble for a paid advantage other than having more cards when a card expansion comes out that you pay for with money (and you can realistically grind enough gold to buy as many as you'd get in a pre-order pack anyway).

[Schattenlied]

No, they aren't. You have the same chance to get the same cards whether you buy packs for free or with real currency. There is no gamble for a paid advantage other than having more cards when a card expansion comes out that you pay for with money (and you can realistically grind enough gold to buy as many as you'd get in a pre-order pack anyway).

Ok? It's still gambling real money for an uncertain "reward", that may or may not be worth less than the money you put in to begin with. Whether or not there is a way to grind out that same uncertain reward without paying is irrelevant, the paid option is still gambling.

[Deleted]

i honestly think that instead of arguing semantics we should all just be very supportive of this movement and pray something will come out of it (but as many pointed out, it's unlikely)

please, don't focus on your smoke screen tactics of defending this garbage with your "it's not really gambling you guys!!!" because this thing is honestly ruining gaming. microtransactions and 60$ games designed like f2p titles is not a cool thing, much like the whole shift from full blown expansions to snippets of dlcs was. the industry is a mess and companies became increasingly greedy but it's only the regular joe's fault for voting for this thing to happen with his wallet.

and no, for the love of God, publishers/devs don't """"struggle"""" with making profits from games, in fact the companies who earn the most revenue out of microtransactions are also the ones who sell a lot of copies of their games (how much money has acti/blizzard made out of microtransactions last year and how much copies has the newest cod sold already, for example?)

it's really sad that so many people actually try to defend these sort of things. the movement against ea's dodgy tactics with BF2 is cool and all but it's also long overdue.

[Baelic]

Wrong. Value is derived from offer and demand.

TCG companies have a monopol on offer. They have 100% control on the value of each of their cards. Third party sellers are just reacting to this rarity, they are in no way in control of it, thus in no way in control of the price.

What you say is like saying stock exchanges are in control of stock's prices, or ebay is in control of the prices of the products on the site. They aren't. They are just the place were the trade is done, not the one fixing at what price this trade is done.

No, TCG Companies really don't, at least not 100%. Sure they can manipulate the market by changing rarity of their cards, thus the supply. But it's still up to Third-party sellers (and the customers) to determine what the actual price of each individual card is.

TCG Companies only sell the packs (loot boxes), each person determines what price they're willing to pay for an individual card. And, for the record, Ebay and Stock exchanges have the ability to influence prices as well for listings/stocks.

Just because X item is more rare, does not necessarily mean I'm suddenly willing to spend more than $Y on it. On the other hand, loot boxes in video games tend to give items that don't have a fluctuating price, and the company selling the loot boxes also (in some cases) sells the individual items that can show up in said loot box.

And in the very specific case of Battlefield 2, those same loot boxes allow you to bypass mechanics that prevent other players from progressing past a certain point.

[Kissintel]

I never in a million years thought I would have to fight on the grounds of what a word means (when providing a definition), or have to defend why loot boxes should be closely watched.

[stellvia]

I never in a million years thought I would have to fight on the grounds of what a word means (when providing a definition), or have to defend why loot boxes should be closely watched.

A lot of times they even agree with you. People just love being pedantic on the internet.

[Scathbais]

Kinda like a slot machine where you get some of your money back!!

Except it is guaranteed. You either get something new or you get coins.

Slot machine you can get nothing at all.

So different

[dope_danny]

I never in a million years thought I would have to fight on the grounds of what a word means (when providing a definition), or have to defend why loot boxes should be closely watched.

Whales get very tetchy when their purchasing habits are questioned. Thats the most fascinating thing to watch in all this. The idea of losing their fix of micropay minibuys with a flashy opening graphic designed to trigger a habit forming dopamine release has some people in genuine panic like an addict whos been threatened with rehab.

[Verdugo]

Whales get very tetchy when their purchasing habits are questioned. Thats the most fascinating thing to watch in all this. The idea of losing their fix of micropay minibuys with a flashy opening graphic designed to trigger a habit forming dopamine release has some people in genuine panic like an addict whos been threatened with rehab.

Some people in this thread should seriously look at themselves in the mirror, and I mean it seriously. They are sick.

[Deleted]

lootboxes = gambling

not sure why peoples still debate this and refuse the truth.

[Gaidax]

[url]Enjoy the lootbox shit while you can because more and more country's are going to crackdown on it and rule it for what it is... Gambling.

Yeah, it will end in nothing as usual. At the very very "worst" there will be some restrictions in Belgium, like there are in China, that's about it.

[Aliven]

Not to defend Overwatch but Overwatch's loot box system is different than Battlefront 2's in the sense that they're just extra cosmetic stuff while Battlefront 2's does a lot more than just cosmetics.

Both are physiological manipulation to create unhealthy spending habits. Both should be shut down.

[Coldkil]

Funny that at the same time it is all fine and dandy when the government does it. Aka, run lotteries and give out Casino licenses. And ofc for the all increasing betting websites etc..

But maybe it is about the target groups....fine if you are 18+, not cool if below.

Exactly. I'm sure this has ties between the tax cut on gambling so that's the main reason for investigations (potential loss of money).

Anyway it's also true that all casinos, lotteries, gambling websites require you to be 18+ to use/partecipate, videogames are played by an awful lot of underage people and that makes the thing only more complicated. It cannot be simply ignored.

Lootboxes are a crap business model and as a player i feel they're just money grabs; i'm also ignoring the difference between P2W and cosmetics only, because lootboxes are lootboxes independently from what you find inside them.

Anyway the issue here is not the practice in the videogame industry; it's the exposure of young players to a very addictive phenomenon (gambling) that has way wider repercussions than videogames only - there's a real danger of making people used to the fact you need to spend money on random stuff in addition to standard price for a standard experience.

[Orange Joe]

No thats why they make you get duplicates. People trying to equal this to TCG outside of heartstone. You can sell your cards. You cant do shit with lootboxes in most games.

Meanwhile I compare it to actual gambling where there is an actual risk to lose your money and not get anything in return.

Loot boxes have no risk and no monetary value.

[Polarthief]

Funny how risking money for possibly obtaining (more?) money = gambling, but risking money for possibly the pixels you want != gambling, at least to some people, and China.

Seriously, what sense does that make? Loot Boxes, TCG packs, etc, it's all fucking gambling, whether people want to admit it or not.

[Tydrane]

Whales get very tetchy when their purchasing habits are questioned. Thats the most fascinating thing to watch in all this. The idea of losing their fix of micropay minibuys with a flashy opening graphic designed to trigger a habit forming dopamine release has some people in genuine panic like an addict whos been threatened with rehab.

I dunno, you guys seem to have all the catchy insults quick at hand - that's usually a more reliable indicator of rustled jimmies. That, and dismissing any responsibility to respond seriously because you've decided anyone who disagrees with you is an addict. That's moving this conversation in a positive direction, isn't it?

As a side-note, this does raise an interesting point - why do we have to open each loot box individually? That part, I can concieve, would appear to a layman similar to real gambling. I'd much prefer to have an 'Open All' button. But I'm probably not one of the mysterious 'loot box addicts' (has anybody actually found someone addicted to opening loot boxes?), I'm more of a collector/completionist. I do buy loot boxes for seasonal events, purely to collect all the cool cosmetic stuff for my character. I like personalisation, I spend a lot of time on transmogging in WoW.

In all honesty, I would probably prefer a system where I could just buy whatever cosmetics I want. I don't really want to defend the loot box system as the best method of delivery of content - I don't agree with that. But, it is the best method of generating income for the game and it's completely optional. But, perhaps at the right price point, a system where you simply purchase your cosmetics or in-game currency to be traded for cosmetics could still generate some income for the game, even if it likely wouldn't be as much.

Just because I don't like the system, doesn't mean I'm automatically on-board with calling it gambling when I have extensive experience and informed authority to state that it is nothing like real gambling.

[dope_danny]

Meanwhile I compare it to actual gambling where there is an actual risk to lose your money and not get anything in return.

Loot boxes have no risk and no monetary value.

Lockboxes, setting aside the cancer of adding them to a buy to play game, are designed to be as habit forming as any other addiction. theres a reason a frame of every Overwatch lockboxes opening animation makes it look like you have a legendary. Its to condition a dopamine release in the consumer so it feels good/generates a positive association feedback loop and getting a legendary is a "big feel win" which instills a feeling to get more to keep that happy feeling going is how they get whales with no self restraint on the teat.

THAT is what makes it like gambling. People rabid to defend their own money spent already -and lets be honest in this case mouth breathing star wars die hards- to the point they are actually being the volunteer public defenders for Electronic Arts as the poor done to little guy because they are trying to push this sinister as fuck designed by commit to form a habit model of lockboxes in buy to play retail releases.

This sums it up well. Sure you get a chance at something everytime. But if a slot machine gave you a free penny does it stop being something designed to get you hooked for multiple revisists? not really.

[Dhrizzle]

You don't get to decide what words mean sorry. Lootbox's is gambling that is a fact backed up by the definition of the word. Not getting what you want is the same as not getting nothing and the definition does not say in order for it to be gambling you get nothing.

There is also many country's that disagree with you. This isn't up for debate words have meanings and this is gambling, Not going to debate more on it.

In the UK the government decreed that loot-boxes were not gambling as the game publishers aren't offering cash rewards. The second definition you quoted is more of a colloquialism than legally enforced definition, it would not be practical or desirable to have the government regulate every single activity that may be referred to as "taking a gamble."

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Its gambling and I hope the ruling is in the favor of gamers. In the comparison to cards, in card games, I can get a card someone wants and receive any property they want to give in exchange, like a cookie. I cannot do that with overwatch skins, its just between me and blizz and its all random.

Which gamers - the ones who like lootboxes and use the systems or the ones that actively dislike them and want them removed from games, or the ones who don't care either way but get the benefits of people who do like the lootboxes paying to support the games?

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Difference is, in MTG, you can buy and sell cards to and from other people, can't do that in hearthstone...

You want a deck in HS? Better throw money at blizzard or be prepared to farm your ass off for it (which will take ages, if the RNG doesn't love you). Want a specific deck in MTG? You can go buy each individual card directly, with the same currency you would buy packs with, and be done with it.

So yeah, hearthstone should probly be a part of it too.

That just makes it more likely for physical CCGs like MtG to be classed as gambling as they offer a clear way to convert your items into real cash.