Antorus sims

[jarbulldog]

Ok I am little confused, I am looking at t21 Sims and fury is 250k ahead of 2nd.

I am looking at the talent setup. The part that is confusing, is they are taking bloodbath.

When did bloodbath become better then innerage?

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports

I know this a dumb question but is fury t21 that powerful?

- - - Updated - - -

You also never want to be at the top at the beginning of a tier you will nerfed

- - - Updated - - -

Also you never want be 1 on sims when new tier releases because you will be nerfed

[Seramore]

Bloodbath is going to work very well with the new set bonuses, I would imagine that Archimtiros will cover it in his guide that will be coming up for Antorus.

As for the sims, I wouldn't really take our placings in comparison to the other specs to heart. A lot of sims for the other specs aren't done, are generally very spotty and change a lot within the first few months of a tier, and more importantly, these are all being done prior to the class balancing that will be coming.

[Pensylvestor]

Fury almost always "sims" high because of its nature, or how it's designed in legion. But if you have any downtime, it looses dps very, very quickly. You can't "pool" anything other than cds, you don't have dots, and not hitting the boss means you're not generating rage, which means you're not spending rage.

Also, juggernaut execute looks a little better on sims than it actually is on most fights.

But yes, trinkets and tier are particularly strong for arms/fury for antorus and I wouldn't be all too surprised if both received a slight nerf.

[ramayana1423]

Bloodbath being taken is most likely because it even further enhances the mega rampages we get in the BC burst window from T21. Basically the added damage of Bloodbath has finally overtaken the DPS increase of Inner Rage.

[Meraxes BE]

Bloodbath's 30 sec cooldown works pretty well with the CoF reduced BC as well. I can't believe CoF has not been hit harder yet, surely the proc rate is going to get dropped pretty quickly after Antorus is out. I'm sure Achie has it all worked out if/when this happens.

[GorkAndMork]

I know this a dumb question but is fury t21 that powerful?

No, unless some Antorus fights will be patchwerk-like during execute phase.

[Bullarkie]

Can someone please update the sim to subtract ~500k dps?

[Deleted]

you don't have dots.

Though your argument is true at rpesent, in antorus, fury has dots with bloodbath and rampage dot, so losing uptime isn't as hard, as it is now. In addition to that, arms suffers from downtime as well, arms too can't generate or spend rage when away from the boss, and loses dps as well, espacially with fob, cause you do not have rend skilled any more. Imho furys downtime dps loss is now lower than arms's.

[Archimtiros]

Though your argument is true at rpesent, in antorus, fury has dots with bloodbath and rampage dot, so losing uptime isn't as hard, as it is now. In addition to that, arms suffers from downtime as well, arms too can't generate or spend rage when away from the boss, and loses dps as well, espacially with fob, cause you do not have rend skilled any more. Imho furys downtime dps loss is now lower than arms's.

Fury's DoTs (Bloodbath and Slaughter) are extremely shortlived, require you to be active in melee range to apply, and rollover via melee damage.

So while his statement "Fury doesn't have DoTs" wasn't literally accurate, it was accurate for the context - Fury does lose more damage due to downtime relative to other class/specs, partially because of it's lack of sustainable damage while out of range.

The other big factor, which both he and you hit on, is WRT resource generation and expenditure. Every spec loses dps due to downtime, but it affects them different ways. Fury is a GCD locked spec, and while more resources = more Rampage/Enrage, it isn't limited by them (meaning it can still attack even without resources) due to their buttons being generators rather than spenders. While Arms also loses DPS due to downtime, it's significantly less, because Arms isn't a GCD locked spec, it's a resource limited one. Time spent not attacking is also resources not spent, which means you can fill those resources in at a later point in which you would have otherwise been starved.

• To put it another way, under normal conditions Fury is a spec with no wait time (spent not attacking), and any amount of downtime creates time spent not dealing damage. Arms is a spec with wait time because it doesn't generate enough resources to fill every GCD. The difference is that if Arms has to move off target (ex: Avatar rupture realities) it just saves that Rage to use on a GCD which would normally be filled by wait time, while Fury doing the same results in a complete net loss.

This also doesn't even begin to cover subjects like CoF requiring constant hits to continually trigger CDR which leads to losing overall casts of Battle Cry, the potential for Juggernaut to fall off, or the ramping nature of Juggernaut in general (any time spent not attacking in Execute is a net loss of total Juggernaut stacks which means less top end damage).

TLDR: Fury is affected by downtime more than Arms.

[Jastall]

I doubt Bloodbath is going to be better in actual raid encounters. Its worth dramatically falls off if you can't tunnel the boss and always sync it with BC, which isn't a realistic prospect in most fights. Simply looking at the Fatboss videos, most encounters have portions where you need to get out of melee range or simply move around a lot. Inner Rage is thus better in practice because it allows the spec to be more flexible.

[skitzin]

Can someone please update the sim to subtract ~500k dps?

Why?

What purpose does sandbagging the results serve?

Also you never want be 1 on sims when new tier releases because you will be nerfed

Because Blizzard takes those simulations super seriously ...

Blizzard has proven that they use their own data, simulations and log files when it comes to changing classes. Sometimes they do so in a way that barely makes sense based on the information we as players have.

To think you are somehow going to stealth past in an overpowered state is delusional at best. And even if you somehow succeeded there would be other classes that would call attention to it as they argue for buffs of their own.

[Archimtiros]

I doubt Bloodbath is going to be better in actual raid encounters. Its worth dramatically falls off if you can't tunnel the boss and always sync it with BC, which isn't a realistic prospect in most fights. Simply looking at the Fatboss videos, most encounters have portions where you need to get out of melee range or simply move around a lot. Inner Rage is thus better in practice because it allows the spec to be more flexible.

I've yet to see an encounter which doesn't allow you to attack a target for at least 10 seconds at a time, so I don't think it's quite as restrictive as you imagine.

[Deleted]

I need to send a DM to someone so I post ... things, I guess.

[Llarold]

I've yet to see an encounter which doesn't allow you to attack a target for at least 10 seconds at a time, so I don't think it's quite as restrictive as you imagine.

Bloodbath is also *substantially* stronger in burst AoE scenarios than Inner Rage, so that's worth something.

[Jastall]

I've yet to see an encounter which doesn't allow you to attack a target for at least 10 seconds at a time, so I don't think it's quite as restrictive as you imagine.

True, maybe that was wishful thinking on my part. I just really wouldn't want to give up the far more fun Inner Rage rotation and put even more of our DPS in the BC window. I'm already annoyed enough that boring old Frothing Berserker is the best talent since Nighthold. Oh well.

[Archimtiros]

True, maybe that was wishful thinking on my part. I just really wouldn't want to give up the far more fun Inner Rage rotation and put even more of our DPS in the BC window. I'm already annoyed enough that boring old Frothing Berserker is the best talent since Nighthold. Oh well.

I actually don't mind the bloodbath playstyle as much as I used to on sustained single target. It's still a little annoying when you're AoEing and trying to save cooldowns for AoE (Harj/Mistress), because you're losing a lot of enrage due to Whirlwind use and end up lacking enrage, leaving you with only FS to press.

That said on pure ST, the rotation is pretty smooth. There are still low points, where you're using BT and FS to try to get enrage/100 rage, but they're more than made up for by the heavy burst potential.

Carnage isn't very far behind Frothing (~2%), and is even ahead (~2%) if you disclude the Execute phase. I could certainly see using it for open world content, if nothing else, to keep Enrage uptime.

[Tradu]

Fury almost always "sims" high because of its nature, or how it's designed in legion. But if you have any downtime, it looses dps very, very quickly. You can't "pool" anything other than cds, you don't have dots, and not hitting the boss means you're not generating rage, which means you're not spending rage.

Also, juggernaut execute looks a little better on sims than it actually is on most fights.

But yes, trinkets and tier are particularly strong for arms/fury for antorus and I wouldn't be all too surprised if both received a slight nerf.

And because Archi insists on using fixed_time for warrior sims, which is silly(the comment regarding "the target exploding below 20%" is just dumb, because that's literally what happens during execute phase in the "real world", and prolonging execute phase in sims is just disingenuous)

[Juggernaught93]

This all is still a big if because we don't know if CoF will be nerfed or not.

[Archimtiros]

And because Archi insists on using fixed_time for warrior sims, which is silly(the comment regarding "the target exploding below 20%" is just dumb, because that's literally what happens during execute phase in the "real world", and prolonging execute phase in sims is just disingenuous)

First off, I don't insist on anything, that's been a default option for quite some time now.

Second, your assessment is also incorrect; fixed time doesn't unfairly boost or prolong the Execute phase. It's specifically designed to do the opposite, and it's been used for quite awhile, so I'm not sure why the rumor has come up so many times recently, other than the fact that common misunderstanding makes it a convenient excuse.

Here are two T20 simulations, the first with fixed time and the second without (180s, no variation), using Soul since it creates a more stable Execute phase, less affected by the RNG of Enrage:




Grand total of -20k DPS, or ~1% reduction. The longer the simulation, the higher this differential can grow, up to ~6% or so (which in T21 is still enough to leave Fury ahead of Arms, ignoring the fact that removing fixed_time would lower Arms output as well) in a 7m simulation.

• The first averaged 18.9 Execute casts, starting Execute at 2:24s (20%).
• The second averaged 16.2 Execute casts, starting Execute at 2:33s (15%).
• Both sample sequences reached 18 stacks of Juggernaut.

Now let's equate that to real data, using current Goroth as an example (the reason I chose a 3m sim):

• Panzar, rank 12 using Soul had a 2:56 kill, with his first Execute cast at 2:20 (that's 20.45% Execute time), and a total of 18 casts.
  
  

• Shadeslayerz, rank 48 using Soul, had a 3:31 kill, with his first Execute cast at 2:50 (that's 19.05% Execute time), and a total of... 18 casts.
  
  

• Llss, rank 61 using Soul, had a 2:44 kill, with his first Execute cast at 2:15 (that's 18.18% Execute time), and a total of 17 casts.
  
  

All seems eerily similar, doesn't it? In my personal experience, single target Execute phases without associated mechanics tend to be 16-22% of the actual encounter length, and that's held fairly consistent among logs I've looked at, barring those with unusual or extreme circumstances.

TLDR: It doesn't prolong the Execute phase, because it's meant to simulate a single actor of a raid. While the Warrior's damage will increase sub 20%, unless the entire raid were made up of Execute classes, the rate of increase in the single simulation would be far greater than that of 1 or 2 out of 15 DPS in the raid. For example, Panzar's DPS went from 1,652k (100-20%) -> 1,858k (20-0%) which is a 12% increase, but the raids DPS didn't increase by 12%, because he was only 7% of the overall raids DPS; in fact the total raid DPS went down 4% from 23,163k to 22,195k.


Taking this a bit further, the main reason players don't hit their sims is because they make mistakes, because encounter mechanics tend to create loss (Goroth), or because they're just not simming them correctly in the first place (5m sim isn't going to match a 3m encounter). You can work around this, but the point of sims isn't to tell you exactly how much DPS you're supposed to be doing - it's a happy byproduct, but that number is largely arbitrary; the point to explain the relationship between stats and abilities, using the output as a metric.

You don't see it so much with a single actor, but with a batch sim (similar to the stack rankings we all know and love/hate) there's the very real problem that not using fixed_time when simulating multiple actors does cause the faux boss to "blow up" if there's a disproportionate amount of Execute classes, leading to significantly lower results for every profile involved, not just the actual Execute classes. The idea with enemy health calc was to make a realistic simulation model, but nobody is ever going to routinely simulate 20 actor raids, rather than single actors or every profile simultaneously, both of which will influence the results.

Everything has a drawback, and nothing is ever going to be 100% accurate 100% of the time, especially dealing with a mechanic whose own exponential ramp decreases the time in which it has to grow. I've toyed with the idea of simply making the Execute phase start at a lower health percentage, adding a dynamic Execute range across iterations, or creating a threshold speed factor to artificially speed up the Execute phase, rather than making it a strict 20%, but none of those are necessarily realistic either, because ultimately it depends on your raid, your skill, and the encounter mechanics. Either way, just making the numbers lower or easier to reach doesn't mean they're any more accurate.

As a bonus, here's a comparison of T21 Arms and Fury without any Execute phase whatsoever.



Lastly, I'm all for improving the way things are done, but if you have a problem with something, try talking to me, not about me; that's just rude.

[Tradu]

Lastly, I'm all for improving the way things are done, but if you have a problem with something, try talking to me, not about me; that's just rude.

Thank you for the explanation, although I still disagree about it having to be used(especially in the stack ranks, seeing as they're closer to being a "realistic" raid comp than single actor sims, so there should be no need to change the settings to account for anything), and I'm clearly right that it is an increase over not using fixed_time, which was what I was saying. This part, however, is clearly not true considering I PM'd you an improved(30-50% on 2-5 targets) Arms cleave/AoE APL months ago, and got no response whatsoever(and last time I checked, it wasn't added to the default APL either)