Why paladin tanks shouldn't be "viable"

[Orbusg]

And Horde would have more viable healers.

They could also make shamans viable for tanking too, making both paladins and shammies capable of healing and tanking.
Even when talking about making classes viable for tanking shamans are still forgotten.

[Enkrypt]

Okay, but why not give a paladin tank the same amount of aoe threat generation as a warrior?

That way paladins get to fufill one of the roles they were meant to, whilst keeping your precious "experience" intact.

It's just so cute when someone thinks making one little change won't hurt the experience. Albeit, allowing Paladins to tank as well as Warrior tanks would require SEVERAL changes and itself would be a huge change. Because now we'd have to make Druids able to tank, too. It's like a little naive puppy running around just eating everything, no matter how painful the shit will be.

One change = hundreds of changes = thousands of changes = not muh Vanilla experience = backfire = pointless for Blizzard to do.

[Orbusg]

Generate more threat when wearing plate
More armor and generate more threat when in bear form

Wow, those thousands of changes sure were hard, it's like I'm really playing Legion.

[Nitros14]

Generate more threat when wearing plate
More armor and generate more threat when in bear form

Wow, those thousands of changes sure were hard, it's like I'm really playing Legion.

It's been explained to you and you still don't get it.

[Brubear]

I was thinking of playing Hunter actually.



I'm in favour of fixing bugs and exploits but not anything that would change the experience and gameplay.

But that would change the experience and gameplay.

[Nitros14]

But that would change the experience and gameplay.

I'll make an exception for stuff like divine interventioning razorgore, standing on a pillar for Mandokir and standing in a safe spot for Heigan since those mean literally not doing the encounter.

The intended experience and gameplay of classic would be a better way to put it maybe?

[Deleted]

Then you can agree that paladins are fine as they were in classic and need no changes I assume?

I'm pointing out that your thread is based on something that isn't true; the assumption that dungeons were good in vanilla because Paladins couldn't tank them.

Paladins can & will be tanking dungeons and off-tanking in raids. Sorry. If Blizzard give them taunt or def cap, nothing changes outside of raid main tanking on specific bosses (ie, where taunt or crush immunity are required)

Just to drive this point home, here's a video from 10 years ago of a Protection Paladin tanking a variety of dungeon and raid content:

[FertsBlert]

Lol, outside of a few choice encounters Alliance were OVERWHELMINGLY advantaged in PvE due to fear ward and blessing of salvation. You have no idea what you're on about.

Giving one faction a viable tank choice over the other is massively game-changing as far as faction balance is concerned. Horde already had population issues in vanilla; doubling the population of viable, available tanks on one side of the divide will make things even worse.

Yeah I guess that's why all the world firsts in Vanilla were done Alliance side... oh wait.

[Nitros14]

I'm pointing out that your thread is based on something that isn't true; the assumption that dungeons were good in vanilla because Paladins couldn't tank them.

Paladins can & will be tanking dungeons and off-tanking in raids. Sorry. If Blizzard give them taunt or def cap, nothing changes outside of raid main tanking on specific bosses (ie, where taunt or crush immunity are required)

Sure it's possible, but as I recall paladins tanking was rare to the point of being irrelevant to the experience back then.

[Moozart]

you played with very bad warrior tanks. secret for warrior aoe tanking was rotating targets like nuts(using sunder armor on adds and sunder + shield slams on main focus and next target) and stance dancing for thunderclap (-20% attack speed with moderate dmg and low threat), and berseker rage for extra rage/avoid fear on pulls with fear + random WW, and using demo and battle shout (yes battleshout and demo generated threat back them)

Or having a Thunderfury, Before it was nerfed the AOE proc on Thunderfury generated so much threat that it would pull mobs to you that you weren't even attacking.

I remember many nights in BWL while we were kiting that the other kite tanks mobs would run completely across the room to me just because my sword procced

This was even more true during the phase 2 dragons on Nef

[Kilee25]

Just to drive this point home, here's a video from 10 years ago of a Protection Paladin tanking a variety of dungeon and raid content:

Watching that video reminded me of the days when player health in dungeons would sit at less than 50% for 5+ seconds at a time while healers waiting for mana or were casting a long heal. I miss those days....

[bash the fash]

Yeah I guess that's why all the world firsts in Vanilla were done Alliance side... oh wait.

'world firsts' mean absolutely nothing to the progression raiding of dozens and dozens of ordinary guilds, or even to any random 5-man group. On any fight with a fear or fear-threat wipe mechanics or touchy aggro issues (which is most of them), alliance most certainly and absolutely had a significant advantage.

The success of horde guilds in 'world firsts' isn't representative of anything really. Nice try tho.

[Drpizka]

Reroll
/10chars

[Deleted]

Sure it's possible, but as I recall paladins tanking was rare to the point of being irrelevant to the experience back then.

Because lack of knowledge + people being shit + stupid memes. Now there are a million Paladin tank guides, videos, and other resources generated by people who've been perfecting this on private. This knowledge all transfers over to an "untouched" Classic server, so Paladin tanks can and will be viable.

[Plutarch78]

Anything that wasn't viable shouldn't be made viable.

Then why have specs or classes that are useless in a game? Waste of code if you ask me.

[Brubear]

I'll make an exception for stuff like divine interventioning razorgore, standing on a pillar for Mandokir and standing in a safe spot for Heigan since those mean literally not doing the encounter.

The intended experience and gameplay of classic would be a better way to put it maybe?

Then that opens you up to the George Lucas treatment (See: His justification for the Special Edition trilogy).

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's kind of my point. Everyone has a different definition of what the "Classic experience" is and what it should entail. If you argue they shouldn't change anything because then it wouldn't be classic, then they also shouldn't change things like Reckbombs and world bosses not being leashed to they could be kited to capitals.

If you argue for the intended experience, then that's an entirely subjective opinion and isn't a clear basis. It also opens the door up for QoL changes (AoE looting, linked auction houses/AH in every city, etc) as Blizzard could add that was their intended experience they just didn't have the technology for it.

[Nitros14]

Because lack of knowledge + people being shit + stupid memes. Now there are a million Paladin tank guides, videos, and other resources generated by people who've been perfecting this on private. This knowledge all transfers over to an "untouched" Classic server, so Paladin tanks can and will be viable.

As long as there's no dual spec daunting gold costs to respec will keep most people who want to raid holy, and anyone who doesn't want to raid will have garbage gear.

Then that opens you up to the George Lucas treatment (See: His justification for the Special Edition trilogy).

I know I'm being pedantic, but that's kind of my point. Everyone has a different definition of what the "Classic experience" is and what it should entail. If you argue they shouldn't change anything because then it wouldn't be classic, then they also shouldn't change things like Reckbombs and world bosses not being leashed to they could be kited to capitals.

If you argue for the intended experience, then that's an entirely subjective opinion and isn't a clear basis. It also opens the door up for QoL changes (AoE looting, linked auction houses/AH in every city, etc) as Blizzard could add that was their intended experience they just didn't have the technology for it.

I feel like you're stretching it a bit here. Linked auction houses and AH in every city were things that were actually in vanilla so I'd expect them there. Kiting world bosses around isn't a bug or exploit the way completely skipping a raid encounter is.

[Pull My Finger]

A lot of people have fond memories of classic dungeons because of the slower pace, setting up pulls and using CC a lot. Much of that happened because the only "viable" tanks (warriors) had extremely poor AoE threat and couldn't hold aggro very well on large pulls.

Paladin tanks have strong aoe threat. When they were reworked to be viable in raids in Burning Crusade much of that classic dungeon gameplay was lost. Does anyone remember Shattered Halls with a paladin tank? It was a very different experience than Shattered Halls with a warrior that's for sure.

There's a danger that we may lose a lot of what made classic classic in buffing poor specs up.

Completely nonsensical logic. So in order for dungeon gameplay to be interesing, all classes except one must suck? It's a matter of encounter design, not of class design. The game just shifted towards AoE nuking as a whole.

[Heladys]

Nope... just far more fun that you are trying to make it NOT to be. I have enjoyed it MUCH more than WoD/Legion.

Some people like masturbating with sandpaper. We don't hold them up as paragons of clear thought.

[Nitros14]

Completely nonsensical logic. So in order for dungeon gameplay to be interesing, all classes except one must suck? It's a matter of encounter design, not of class design. The game just shifted towards AoE nuking as a whole.

What's the other option? Redesign the paladin talent tree to make sense, introduce new abilities so they don't go out of mana and itemize new items for them, then nerf consecration so their aoe threat is balls like warriors?