Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Obelisk Kai]

The lore for the Warcraft universe has, by necessity, been written, re-written, and revised over the course of 23 years. I think you seriously underestimate and undervalue how much thought has probably gone into it because you don't like aspects of it. That the story buckles to the gameplay mechanics if there is a conflict I accept with some despair, but it remains that can't have an ongoing IP for more than two decades and over a dozen games and *not* accumulate several novels worth of story (and this is discounting the dozen or so actual novels that supplement the games).

On the contrary, I have the utmost respect for the lore as it has been developed, (though we have to admit the lore for Warcraft 2 would not have the depth and forethough it would today and was heavily informed by prevailing tropes). Especially in WoW and with the Warcraft chronicles fleshing it out. One of the main problems with this Blood Elf discussion is that those seeking High Elves on the Alliance seem unable to reconcile themselves to how the story has progressed.

How often have you seen the decision to add the Blood Elves to the Horde portrayed as dumb writing or not making sense? Never mind that Blizzard devoted a huge chunk of TFT expansion pack to explaining this and then further developed the explanation in TBC. The storyline was not poorly written as they claim, it was written in a way that produced an outcome that did not agree with their expectations.

And how often have you seen since the sheer denial of the people seeking playable High Elves of everything, based either in lore or word of gods from the devs, that says it will not happen. I mean two weeks ago we had Ion basically state it wasn't going to happen because he felt High Elves were Blood Elves, and yet these groups went out of their way to minimise his words, the words of the game director, as being of one man, he is part of a team, he can be overruled.

Funny how Ion is scapegoated for most other decisions made, but when they try and minimise something he says, suddenly he is part of a collective.

Even this discussion, about what could have been, is an excuse for headcannon-ing and to sustain the hope for High Elves even in the face of a 90% identical clone being added.

Fundamentally, it is this disrespect for the lore that annoys me. They can't accept the weird and wonderful ways this story has deviated from bog standard fantasy. It's like a never ending effort to undo being different and restore a tolkien status quo.

[Andromedes]

Yet that isn't what the main thrust of this discussion is about either. Abolishing the faction wall is a whole discussion all by itself. This discussion is about a group who have never accepted that this fantasy universe isn't following standard tropes regarding racial line ups, have complained for years about it, and still aren't happy when they get a close enough but not absolutely identical result.

Their goal would ALSO diminish faction diversity, simply because they feel an attachment to the 'lore' of a game over two decades old that was probably written in an afternoon.

What they likely feel is an attachment to a Tolkien trope that was shattered by TBC.

what a load of generalizing bullshit..

"This discussion is about a group, who have never accepted that this fantasy universe isn't following standard tropes regarding racial lineups"

What the hell does that even mean? Wanting to play as a high elf, the first introduced elven race in warcraft universe is "never accepting, that warcraft isnt following standard tropes?"

now it is clear, you are just mocking for sake of mocking.. also you have some twisted perception of what we actually want and proposing here... This lord of the rings bullshit is always brough just by you.

[Obelisk Kai]

what a load of generalizing bullshit..

"This discussion is about a group, who have never accepted that this fantasy universe isn't following standard tropes regarding racial lineups"

What the hell does that even mean? Wanting to play as a high elf, the first introduced elven race in warcraft universe is "never accepting, that warcraft isnt following standard tropes?"

now it is clear, you are just mocking for sake of mocking.. also you have some twisted perception of what we actually want and proposing here... This lord of the rings bullshit is always brough just by you.

Hey I've argued this topic for years. The reasons have always boiled down to either a misunderstanding of what the elves were in the lore, which only makes sense if you assume the person is using the Lord of the Rings cliches to fill in the gaps, OR a desire to have another sexy race option.

Because the 'first elven race in the warcraft universe' is there and fully playable. Has been for over a decade. You chose not to play it, and those that agree with you have complained for over a decade while embarking on a crusade to get Blizzard to twist the lore, almost to breaking point, on your behalf and damn the consequences to play this race as an Ally.

The ironic thing is you succeeded.

Enjoy your Void Elf reward.

[Aucald]

On the contrary, I have the utmost respect for the lore as it has been developed, (though we have to admit the lore for Warcraft 2 would not have the depth and forethough it would today and was heavily informed by prevailing tropes). Especially in WoW and with the Warcraft chronicles fleshing it out. One of the main problems with this Blood Elf discussion is that those seeking High Elves on the Alliance seem unable to reconcile themselves to how the story has progressed.

How often have you seen the decision to add the Blood Elves to the Horde portrayed as dumb writing or not making sense? Never mind that Blizzard devoted a huge chunk of TFT expansion pack to explaining this and then further developed the explanation in TBC. The storyline was not poorly written as they claim, it was written in a way that produced an outcome that did not agree with their expectations.

And how often have you seen since the sheer denial of the people seeking playable High Elves of everything, based either in lore or word of gods from the devs, that says it will not happen. I mean two weeks ago we had Ion basically state it wasn't going to happen because he felt High Elves were Blood Elves, and yet these groups went out of their way to minimise his words, the words of the game director, as being of one man, he is part of a team, he can be overruled.

Funny how Ion is scapegoated for most other decisions made, but when they try and minimise something he says, suddenly he is part of a collective.

Even this discussion, about what could have been, is an excuse for headcannon-ing and to sustain the hope for High Elves even in the face of a 90% identical clone being added.

Fundamentally, it is this disrespect for the lore that annoys me. They can't accept the weird and wonderful ways this story has deviated from bog standard fantasy. It's like a never ending effort to undo being different and restore a tolkien status quo.

The main issue I see this particular debate, and the wider debate that it touches on, is that people don't like to (or simply can't) discuss, argue, or debate the lore of the Warcraft universe in a vacuum. The main criticism of the "Horde Blood Elf" I see the most often is that Blood Elves were given to the Horde so that they'd have an aesthetically pleasing race and the lore (whatever it otherwise might've been) was bent in accordance with that goal. That argument, which probably does possess grains of truth from an external perspective, doesn't actually mean *anything* in the context of the story, though. The reasoning for the Sin'dorei leaving the Alliance is well detailed and elaborated upon - it's not pulled out of thin air from no established basis (well, not anymore than the entire game's story is pulled out of thin air by virtue of being a work of fantasy fiction). WC3:TFT underpins it: the betrayal of Kael'thas Sunstrider by the Alliance in its person as Garithos the Grand Marshal, the Kirin Tor turning a blind eye to the prejudicial treatment and imprisonment of the Alliance-loyal Sin'dorei, etc. etc. The story is there, the rationale is clear, it was almost as if the shift of allegiance for the Sin'dorei was written years in advance.

The High Elf problem, too, is subject to the same external scrutiny and justifications. Personally, I don't really care one way or the other if the Alliance got playable Quel'dorei characters - so long as a justifiable and well-crafted story for it is provided. High Elves found in hiding somewhere? The return of the High Elves from Outland coupled by a gathering of their far-flung representatives to other areas we've not seen yet? A brief window opened up to an alternate Azeroth where the Third War never happened and a bunch of Alliance-loyal High Elves cross over to our Azeroth? All fine with me, as long as it is given a good in-game rationale. The story as it stands, though; with High Elves being a vanishingly small percentage of an already endangered race? I can both understand and appreciate the arguments for why the High Elves aren't represented as a playable race. From that external perspective, I can understand and appreciate the argument that the High Elves aren't a playable race because they're not fundamentally different from their Blood Elven cousins who are already loyal to the Horde. Also in the Warcraft universe's lore you have examples of Tauren who are loyal to the Alliance, Humans who have spied for Thrall and are likely Horde-aligned. But neither of these is a real justification for having playable Humans for the Horde or playable Tauren for the Alliance.

As for the Void Elves and their exceedingly small numbers? These new allied races are being packaged and presented as "prestige" races - special models, special silhouettes, and thematic differences that all imply essential rarity. Their rareness is built into the model, so to speak, but they don't suffer the same external concerns of lack of difference as they're all distinct and stand apart from the other races (even those they're naturally related to). From an external standpoint, there's a lot of difference between a void-spewing, ashen, and shadow-twisted Void Elf and a Blood Elf than there is between a High Elf and a Blood Elf (where just have eye-color and choice of clothing).

[Broken Fox]

Voids elves are the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Just give us high elves. This expansion is going to be a train crashing full speed into a dumpster.

Speaking of asspulls

[Kithelle]

Blizzard handled it fine, I have plenty of friends who wished for High Elves in the Alliance for years, and they are VERY satisfied with Void Elves. Because they know their lore, and they understand that Void Elves, are freaking Blood/High Elves.
I bet my left hand that they will get a normal skin color. Demon Hunters and Death Knights also have such an option so I guess why not for Void Elves. Alleria Windrunner will be the leader of the faction, and from what we've seen so far, their eyes are going to be blue, or at least close to it.
How can people still not be pleased? They should be thankful.

The bloody game director of WoW himself says that Blood Elves are High Elves, and people still say otherwise.

They're Blood Elves....twisted Blood Elves...how messed up is the Blood Elf population if so many of them are dipping into the void that there is a population of them?

Yes High Elves and Blood Elves are the same people...but High Elves walked a different path...or why do we refer to Worgen as Worgen...they're Humans that can take Human form...but they walked a different path, Gilneas walked a different path. Just as it seem Kul Tiras Humans will be different that Stormwind Humans.

They have no foot to stand on to claim High Elves are Blood Elves when they asspull things like Void Elves...taking small populations or similar populations and making them a unique race. There is literally no excuse for them not to give High Elves...

I don't want a High Elf because I want a Alliance Blood Elf, I want a High Elf for what their people are...for their potential...obviously Void Elves could never been Paladins either.

[Techno-Druid]

I'll have to agree on that one. Many people have to compromise or split due to the faction barrier. Many of my friends want Horde, while I am Alliance. In the end, either some are unhappy or we don't play together at all.

Factions had and still may have their place in certain gameplay aspects, but lore-wise there are just too many cross-factional friendships or decent relations that really undermine factional conflict and take away from racial development. Tauren and nelves, draenei and belves, Blackrock and Dark Iron, Huojin and Tushui pandaren, etc.

[Friendlyimmolation]

They're Blood Elves....twisted Blood Elves...how messed up is the Blood Elf population if so many of them are dipping into the void that there is a population of them?

Yes High Elves and Blood Elves are the same people...but High Elves walked a different path...or why do we refer to Worgen as Worgen...they're Humans that can take Human form...but they walked a different path, Gilneas walked a different path. Just as it seem Kul Tiras Humans will be different that Stormwind Humans.

They have no foot to stand on to claim High Elves are Blood Elves when they asspull things like Void Elves...taking small populations or similar populations and making them a unique race. There is literally no excuse for them not to give High Elves...

I don't want a High Elf because I want a Alliance Blood Elf, I want a High Elf for what their people are...for their potential...obviously Void Elves could never been Paladins either.

Im genuinely curious on what potential you think High elves have left, when every story blizz has on them or talks about them is that they are a dying "race" that assimilated into other cultures. The Death bell rang for high elf story in burning crusade, when the Blood elves owned every last square inch of Quel'thalas.

[ls-]

Im genuinely curious on what potential you think High elves have left, when every story blizz has on them or talks about them is that they are a dying "race" that assimilated into other cultures. The Death bell rang for high elf story in burning crusade, when the Blood elves owned every last square inch of Quel'thalas.

Story of Vereesa fighting her dementia and how helves are coping w/ her seizures.

[Fyersing]

Im genuinely curious on what potential you think High elves have left, when every story blizz has on them or talks about them is that they are a dying "race" that assimilated into other cultures. The Death bell rang for high elf story in burning crusade, when the Blood elves owned every last square inch of Quel'thalas.

As far as I'm aware, it's never been mentioned that the High Elves (specifically, Silver Covenant) are experiencing population atrophy at any more pronounced a rate than any other sub-faction. It was stated as Blizzcon that they're assimilating into existing cultural groups, which is a newly inserted assertion as it pertains to their situation, suggesting that assimilation into an existing culture is exactly what is in the cards for the High Elves. I expect we'll learn more from the Void Elf and/or Nightborne questline(s).

To the second point, about their story being finished in TBC, I simply can't agree as someone who predominantly plays Alliance. They've featured prominently in 3 of the last 5 expansions, explicitly on behalf of the Alliance. It could very well be a matter of bias, because I spend my time split about 90/10 in favor of my Alliance characters, so maybe I'm too close to the situation -- but it seems like the High Elves, as a general rule, tend to get nearly as much screentime as the actually playable Blood Elves.

I suspect Blizzard is thinking that they can take this group (Silver Covenant), clearly a popular hit among the fans, and integrate them into the future storylines for the Blood Elves. This strikes me as a risky decision, should they follow through with it, because they're banking on the SC remaining popular when it's affiliated with the Horde -- but as we've learned from hundreds upon hundreds of threads, over perhaps a decade, is that it's fundamentally the fact that they don't agree with virtually anything the Horde stands for that makes them popular.

Essentially, they're popular because they're Alliance. That popularity might drag a few diehards to the Blood Elves, surely, but more likely it will just piss people off and they'll have axed an organization that has had more relevance to the Alliance post-Classic than Gnomes, Dwarves, Pandaren, Worgen and maybe even the Draenei (though, doubtful on that last one, thanks to the last two expansions).

Edit: To the very first question, though, which I somehow ignored:

They, High Elves, should probably be forcibly inundated with the energies that have afflicted the Void Elves. It'd be win-win for Blizzard because they could just call them High Elves, instead of the travesty that is "Void Elf" as a moniker, as well as finally being done with calls for "traditional, Alliance-aligned Thalassians". There would be two groups of Thalassians playable to the factions:

The first group was fully willing to tolerate practices which were morally questionable, to ensure their survival, but who eventually returned to and embraced the ancestral principles -- this group being the Blood Elves.

The second group wasn't comfortable with crossing any moral lines, even if it meant their nation and their very species might disappear, who suffered for years and ultimately ended up betraying their own moralism so thoroughly that they could never return -- this group being the Void Elves, preferably to include all of the Silver Covenant after being forcibly doused with Void-juice.

The literary value is too good to pass up. Then again, Christie Golden is probably writing this stuff now, so we should expect all the depth of a Seasame Street episode.

[Maelvona]

On the contrary, I have the utmost respect for the lore as it has been developed, (though we have to admit the lore for Warcraft 2 would not have the depth and forethough it would today and was heavily informed by prevailing tropes). Especially in WoW and with the Warcraft chronicles fleshing it out. One of the main problems with this Blood Elf discussion is that those seeking High Elves on the Alliance seem unable to reconcile themselves to how the story has progressed.

How often have you seen the decision to add the Blood Elves to the Horde portrayed as dumb writing or not making sense? Never mind that Blizzard devoted a huge chunk of TFT expansion pack to explaining this and then further developed the explanation in TBC. The storyline was not poorly written as they claim, it was written in a way that produced an outcome that did not agree with their expectations.

And how often have you seen since the sheer denial of the people seeking playable High Elves of everything, based either in lore or word of gods from the devs, that says it will not happen. I mean two weeks ago we had Ion basically state it wasn't going to happen because he felt High Elves were Blood Elves, and yet these groups went out of their way to minimise his words, the words of the game director, as being of one man, he is part of a team, he can be overruled.

Funny how Ion is scapegoated for most other decisions made, but when they try and minimise something he says, suddenly he is part of a collective.

Even this discussion, about what could have been, is an excuse for headcannon-ing and to sustain the hope for High Elves even in the face of a 90% identical clone being added.

Fundamentally, it is this disrespect for the lore that annoys me. They can't accept the weird and wonderful ways this story has deviated from bog standard fantasy. It's like a never ending effort to undo being different and restore a tolkien status quo.

The story WAS dumb because we know WHY it became that way. Because faction balance. Because the game has TWO factions. WCIII had FOUR factions and it was the most 'warcrafty' out of any title for many title. It even had a variety of subfactions, like the forsaken, or the goblins, or the ogres. Tons of variety with mercenaries and the like mixed in. WoW has devolved to such a point where there are TWO factions. And if you are not apart of them, you are irrelevant.

This doesn't follow the logic of the world. Gilneas did just fine without the alliance until WoW came along and it DIDN'T. Kul'Tiras didn't even fucking exist for 12 years. You can't reconcile that. It is utter shite.

The reason why we will not accept story 'progression' and why we 'headcanon' is because the fans should be respected, and that stories should go down plausible routes. Not be created simply because one faction is dogshit at actually being attractive to players, so an entire races' diametric is changed and their lore rewritten or thrown out to allow for this. We KNOW this is why the blood elves are with the horde. THE ONLY REASON.

You are an apologist. Thus your opinion is invalid because even if WoW served you a steaming hot turd you'd stuff your face and proclaim it was the best meal you've ever eaten and all those who oppose you are wrong. Burning Crusade was the biggest dogshit of all, and the fact you represent, protect, and defend the TERRIBLE lore of the game, is simply disgusting. The writing is barely there, the zones are filled with pop-culture references, they self-insert their own memes constantly and they have no respect for anything they've ever created or anything they've done. Illidan's entire story is just one in a long list of examples for this.(also its funny that you thought that Blood Elves would ever join the Horde from the Frozen Throne, when they clearly were joining Illidan's faction of the Illidari, made up of Draenei, Naga, and Blood Elves. They didn't get trained out of Horde buildings, mate, and they were actually planned to have been released in multiplayer. God are you dense. Hindsight will justify anything, though, right orc-lover?)

I don't care about being disrespectful to a bad game. You are just mad that Orcs aren't popular, and your 'muh nubble sivige' is hated across the board, and you deride it to 'tolkien tropers lol'. NO. I wanted a rich fantasy world where there are stakes, forces moving all around, a fantasy world that had a plot direction with realism mixed in with the fantastical elements established. The undead have been reduced so much it is really sad, and it seems like Night Elves are going that way too. BUT HEY AT LEAST WE GOT THE GOOD OLE ALLIANCE AND HORDE AMIRITE THE HEART OF THE GAME.

Apologist.

- - - Updated - - -

The main issue I see this particular debate, and the wider debate that it touches on, is that people don't like to (or simply can't) discuss, argue, or debate the lore of the Warcraft universe in a vacuum. The main criticism of the "Horde Blood Elf" I see the most often is that Blood Elves were given to the Horde so that they'd have an aesthetically pleasing race and the lore (whatever it otherwise might've been) was bent in accordance with that goal. That argument, which probably does possess grains of truth from an external perspective, doesn't actually mean *anything* in the context of the story, though. The reasoning for the Sin'dorei leaving the Alliance is well detailed and elaborated upon - it's not pulled out of thin air from no established basis (well, not anymore than the entire game's story is pulled out of thin air by virtue of being a work of fantasy fiction). WC3:TFT underpins it: the betrayal of Kael'thas Sunstrider by the Alliance in its person as Garithos the Grand Marshal, the Kirin Tor turning a blind eye to the prejudicial treatment and imprisonment of the Alliance-loyal Sin'dorei, etc. etc. The story is there, the rationale is clear, it was almost as if the shift of allegiance for the Sin'dorei was written years in advance.
.

You are speaking about this in an entirely different direction then you should have been. Kael'thas pulled out of the Alliance of Lordaeron, true, but at that point, the Alliance of Lordaeron was in tatters and they had merely had tactical disputes over the correct decisions to take. Garithos was fighting a badly outnumbered war, but it is true, that what he did was wrong. But he wasn't the entire alliance. He was one human general that Kael'Thas turned to, when infact Tyr's Hand and Jaina's survivors of Theramore were just as much if not more substantial successors to the Lordaeron Alliance. So he disagreed with one faction within the alliance, and left his support, and that faction died not so long after. Kael'thas thought pledged his support AND his people to Illidan.

Kael'thas, alongside Alleria, and Sylvanas, were the principal characters we had for Blood Elves. Kael'thas showed no mention of Orcs, he even didn't mind the humans, he just disliked risking the lives of his men for what he believed fool-hardy tasks, and they probably were. So he took Illidan's offer, a Night Elf. He also knew of other Night Elves and had only curiosity of his elven kin. They even saved his life. No mention or meeting of Horde. He likely disliked them, because, as Alleria did so effortlessly point out, the Horde fucking allied themselves with the Amani to destroy all of Quel'thalas. Perhaps Kael was not really of age back then, but his father certainly would have told him/been taught this. Alleria was a steadfast alliance supporter and would risk her life for the alliance. This, presumably, would shed somewhat upon her sister, who we don't really know much about until she's turned. She's the Commander of the Farstriders and the leader of the defense of Quel'Thalas, maybe she resents the Alliance for taking her sister away? She really hates Undead, and then becomes one. Honestly Sylvanas is an entirely interesting character..

But she was shoehorned into being someone else's bitch instead of as her own character. Elves were Alliance priests, and even with Anasterian absence and their policy towards isolationism, Elven priests can be found everywhere during the start of the plague, to help humanity, and many fled with Jaina to Theramore. Kael'thas dedicated his Kingdom to the Illidari, and found himself at odds with at least the wardens, who had some amount of support of traditional Kal'Dorei society, but were seen as renegades since Maiev betrayed Tyrande and went on her own. SO IN CONCLUSION, looking at this all from an 'in-lore perspective', seeing as how, the Horde were a tiny group of fledglings that would need a ton of time to build up and properly make their own territory, it would make no sense for Sylvanas nor the Blood Elves to join 'their side' as it were. They were entirely Kalimdor based, and would have done nothing for their allies across the ocean, as they owned no boats and would only bring about bad relations, which is what happened.

If anything, it would make way more sense for the Blood Elves to renegotiate with Jaina, as she was based in Theramore, had connections back home on the Eastern Kingdoms, and would have rectified the mistakes that her forebears caused. But that is all speaking in disillusion. What we talk about aren't the Blood Elves or the High Elves. They're the Rebels. They are the ones who betrayed Kael'Thas, and betrayed the foundations of his Kingdom.. For nothing, the Blood Elves were in no threat, presumably, but because they HAD to make a reason, it was because of alliance spies & a previously unforseen undead army/fortress bearing down the doors of Silvermoon even long after Arthas had left and Kael committed a huge amount of his soldiers elsewhere.

So as you can see, within the plot of the game, none of this makes sense and I would be scratching at my head as all these loose plot threads and unfinished stories were tried to tied together as a 'AND THEN BLOOD ELVES JOIN HORDE JUST CUZ'. We can literally only make sense of the Blood Elven(traitor) story when it comes from this light. We can only make sense of Blood Elves betraying Kael'thas, and then two different factions launching crusades against him, in this light, as he was a benevolent king and a generally cool dude. The blood elves obviously do not belong in the Alliance, but they Don't belong in the Horde either as this has hopefully illustrated, so trying to underpin their alliance 'switching' when the Horde was geopolitically dead in the water and had no leg to stand up on with the Blood Elves is just nonsensical. You are giving cause to Blizzard's stupidity.

[Obelisk Kai]

SNIP

Then again, Christie Golden is probably writing this stuff now, so we should expect all the depth of a Seasame Street episode.

And for proof that pro High Elves denigrate the lore because they don't like the results, see this.

As for the High Elves, there is no chance of the story being changed so that THEY become the Void Elves rather than an exiled group of Blood Elves.

Writing, quest construction, asset construction, voice acting...think of everything that has already been done regarding Void Elves that is in the development pipeline. Their plot line is locked.

You are right though regarding the SC. There is a focus on Elves right now. Blizzard may take the opportunity to tie up outstanding plotlines.

I mean IF Aethas and the Sunreavers are the traitors who embrace the void, then the SC is going to be disgusted at this. And IF Veressa has died by this point and the Alliance is tolerating not only the group they fought against in Dalaran, but magical infused monstrosities far worse than a Blood Elf ever was, then the SC has nobody to anchor them to the Alliance and they could cut ties and return to Silvermoon. That way, Blood Elves have a reason for a choice of blue eyes when enhanced customization comes in.

It's speculation, but speculation that does fit the admittedly few clues we have.

- - - Updated - - -

Im genuinely curious on what potential you think High elves have left, when every story blizz has on them or talks about them is that they are a dying "race" that assimilated into other cultures. The Death bell rang for high elf story in burning crusade, when the Blood elves owned every last square inch of Quel'thalas.

Their return to Silvermoon after the Alliance accepts the void infused Sunreavers. I know, I know, it's just speculation. But fun speculation.

snip

I can agree with much of that. On the other hand, I am of the opinion that the faction conflict is essential to the Warcraft mythos. People say there is too much cross faction communication between the various groupings to believe it, such as the Cenarion Circle or the Earthen Ring or the Kirin Tor, but I think they miss the wider picture.

We, the heroes of Azeroth, live among extraordinary beings now. We do extraordinary things. Our faction leaders know us on a first time basis. But the wider citizenry of the Horde and Alliance know nothing of that and care for it even less. WE can see beyond the faction boundary because of our exalted heights. But in terms of the story, the vast majority of our factions can't.

That is why the backsliding into war is so believable. We are, in some ways, an out of touch elite and the ordinary people will have their say and they will demand war against the other side. And catastrophe will be the result. Some real world parallels there...

[ello]

And for proof that pro High Elves denigrate the lore because they don't like the results, see this.

As for the High Elves, there is no chance of the story being changed so that THEY become the Void Elves rather than an exiled group of Blood Elves.

Eh, Blizzard cuts/changes stuff all the time. I remember a tweet from a Blizz dev regarding Vol'jin's presence in Legion - "Of course he'll be around! He's the warchief".

[deviantcultist]

I've often said that the faction conflict is one of my least favorite aspects of WoW. But there is still truth to the notion that if it didn't exist, that if the various races had their own nations and were individual factions, the resulting game might be better but it would not be Warcraft.

You are right on that one and that is the frustrating part. On the one hand, the concept is very much fundamental, yet on the other hand, you'd rather bypass it on multiple occassion such as the example of wanting to play with friends.

Factions had and still may have their place in certain gameplay aspects, but lore-wise there are just too many cross-factional friendships or decent relations that really undermine factional conflict and take away from racial development. Tauren and nelves, draenei and belves, Blackrock and Dark Iron, Huojin and Tushui pandaren, etc.

That is true. Sadly, I am not expecting Blizz them to expand on that any time soon. On the contrary, I am getting the feeling like new Allied races are somewhat encouraging faction changes.

For instance, Void Elves - I happened to have been Alliance all along and wanting to play. However, countless Blood Elves that were more Shadow-focused will want to change factions to support that theme better.

[Chemical Ellis]

The story as it stands, though; with High Elves being a vanishingly small percentage of an already endangered race? I can both understand and appreciate the arguments for why the High Elves aren't represented as a playable race. From that external perspective, I can understand and appreciate the argument that the High Elves aren't a playable race because they're not fundamentally different from their Blood Elven cousins who are already loyal to the Horde.

Is this really still the core of the argument against High Elves, though? I feel like any stance that pivots on population size breaks down under scrutiny. The entirety of the playable Bilgewater Cartel fit in the hull of a single boat - it's a major plot point in the goblin starting story - and we're going to say they constitute a greater force than a faction that formed significant populations in three (now two) major metropolises, occupies lodges around the world, has a militia that can stand toe to toe with Silvermoon's Farstriders?

The fact is, we have no hard, canon numbers on player race populations. So any claims made about the significance of a group that comprises 1% of the pre-Scourge High Elf population are moot - Is this 1% of a billion or of 10,000? Some catastrophe could wipe out 99% of China tomorrow, and they'd still be in the upper third of the world's most populous countries. Most of the justification comes from a Community Manager post from before Blood Elves were even playable, and a Con-floor interview with Ion. I fully acknowledge that there's a gulf between lore and gameplay. But I tend to take the polished experiences they've presented to us in game, that show High Elves matching Blood Elves in Zul'Aman, Isle of Thunder, Suramar, over off-the-cuff opinions from Blizzard employees about a product like WoW, where development and decision-making are constantly in flux.

The viewpoint that High Elf population is 'vanishingly small' seems to exist almost entirely outside of the game or any official media. And it appears to be one that the writers, quest developers, and world designers at Blizzard disagree with. They could have presented High Elves as the clinging survivors of an extinct culture, rarely folded into other societies like a diamond in coal. But that ship sailed ten years ago. They've been used to drive the Alliance story far too much to ignore - as it is, I think the Alliance will always feel incomplete without playable High Elves.

As for differences - it oughta be self-evident that there's a heck of a lot more cultural difference between the Blood Elves who essentially forged a new identity for themselves (I mean, that's what TFT is all about) and the High Elves whose culture has continued to evolve and gain definition over the past decade as a foil to the Blood Elves (as the Forsaken to the Scourge and the Draenei to the Manari), than between a Blood Elf and an exiled Blood Elf. Visually, I'm much less invested (though I do feel Void Elves look way too much like Belf DKs with Sylvanas skin - does this kill chances for Forsaken Elves?). Perhaps they will introduce a satisfactory storyline for Void Elves. But recent interviews with Muffinus indicate that the first four Allied Races will primarily be unlocked via Legion quest content. We've seen similar handwaves before - I think there's a legitimate fear that their origins may not go much deeper than that Alleria dialogue.

We're in very early days yet. Storylines have yet to be finalized, dialogues have yet to be written, they are months and months away from the VO booth. We're at the stage where everything is subject to change. And a stage where healthy discussion actually has an infinitesimal sliver of a chance of being productive. Not when it's based on denigrating and condescending to those with different opinions, to which several posters in this thread have resorted (and really, if you have to rely on that, your argument's probably not so hot). But when it's based on mutual respect. I think a lively discourse - here, on the official forums, on Reddit - is a good thing. From what little we know, Void Elves (IMO) don't make much narrative sense, and really only satisfy fans of the Blood Elf model who don't want to switch from Alliance. I think they offer far greater story potential, plot consistency, and player satisfaction as a subgroup of High Elves (I've articulated elsewhere in this thread why Sons of Lothar helfs present the ideal background).

[deviantcultist]

I understand that there are people who wanted High Elves to begin with, but why the obsession with posts aiming at "changing the mind of Blizz"?

Can you not respect that there are people who actually like the Void Elf concept? It is one thing to not get what you want and another thing to ask something to be taken back from someone who wanted it.

[Chemical Ellis]

I understand that there are people who wanted High Elves to begin with, but why the obsession with posts aiming at "changing the mind of Blizz"?

Can you not respect that there are people who actually like the Void Elf concept? It is one thing to not get what you want and another thing to ask something to be taken back from someone who wanted it.

Is there anyone super invested in Void Elves coming out of Blood Elves? I've seen people enthusiastic for Void Elves, but I've yet to see anyone really eager for them to be exiled Blood Elves.

[deviantcultist]

Is there anyone super invested in Void Elves coming out of Blood Elves? I've seen people enthusiastic for Void Elves, but I've yet to see anyone really eager for them to be exiled Blood Elves.

I have been playing a Blood Elf Shadow Priest when I started the game and I realized that thematically I didn't belong there and switched to Night Elf as something more akin to the Dark Elf fantasy. The Void Elf fills that niche for me and put the nail in the coffin for Shadow fantasy in the Blood Elf side of things.

Aside from my personal experience, Void fantasy is something that needs to be fleshed out more and Alleria is the reason why that would be done through Elves in an interesting manner.

Now, asking that to be done through High Elves turning Void Elves instead of Blood Elves, that's a different story. Dropping the Void Elf idea after being announced is something unacceptable in my opinion.

[Chemical Ellis]

Now, asking that to be done through High Elves turning Void Elves instead of Blood Elves, that's a different story. Dropping the Void Elf idea after being announced is something unacceptable in my opinion.

Ah, ok. I actually don't have a problem with Void Elves as a broad concept. I've always anticipated, in the off-chance that High Elves ever did become playable, they'd likely need something to make them more visually distinct than the High Elves we see in game. My hope was that they'd be based on one of the many Thalassian models in game that's not modeled after playable belfs - maybe Nozdormu or Silvermoon guards. But I think a lot of High Elf proponents had considered they might be somehow transformed.

Ideally, I would see Void Elves as the playable component of the High Elf faction. Similarly to Gilneans. Gilneas is a human kingdom, a human faction. Many of our most prominent Gilnean NPCs are human. But players have access only to cursed Gilneans. Likewise, I would see Void Elves as the cursed portion of High Elf society. Their compatriots might alternately view them with pity, compassion, suspicion, or disgust. But they share a culture, share leaders, are all part of one Quel'dorei faction. I want the militant, dogmatic, ideological column that's led some of the most eminent Alliance storylines since Wrath to finally become playable. And honestly, I would prefer playable High Elves transmogrified into literal turds over Alliance Blood Elves.

[Aucald]

Is this really still the core of the argument against High Elves, though? I feel like any stance that pivots on population size breaks down under scrutiny. The entirety of the playable Bilgewater Cartel fit in the hull of a single boat - it's a major plot point in the goblin starting story - and we're going to say they constitute a greater force than a faction that formed significant populations in three (now two) major metropolises, occupies lodges around the world, has a militia that can stand toe to toe with Silvermoon's Farstriders?

I don't think it's the core argument, no; it's a supplementary argument coupled with the notion that High Elves remain both physically and thematically indistinct from Blood Elves. In the hyperbolic sense the main detracting argument is: "High Elves are like 1% of an already endangered race, and even still they're essentially the same race except they've got blue eyes and like to wear blue clothes."

The fact is, we have no hard, canon numbers on player race populations. So any claims made about the significance of a group that comprises 1% of the pre-Scourge High Elf population are moot - Is this 1% of a billion or of 10,000? Some catastrophe could wipe out 99% of China tomorrow, and they'd still be in the upper third of the world's most populous countries. Most of the justification comes from a Community Manager post from before Blood Elves were even playable, and a Con-floor interview with Ion. I fully acknowledge that there's a gulf between lore and gameplay. But I tend to take the polished experiences they've presented to us in game, that show High Elves matching Blood Elves in Zul'Aman, Isle of Thunder, Suramar, over off-the-cuff opinions from Blizzard employees about a product like WoW, where development and decision-making are constantly in flux.

We don't really have any census-level numbers, that is correct. The general population figures we have is a known figure that the toll of the Third War and the loss of the Sunwell led to the loss of 90% of the Blood Elven race - winnowing their population to a level that in modern species demographic charting would be listed as "critically endangered." High Elves are calculated to be at around a total 1% of the total remaining from the Blood Elves, and there are about 1,400 of them left in the world. In modern demographics they are essentially classified as "extinct in the wild."

The viewpoint that High Elf population is 'vanishingly small' seems to exist almost entirely outside of the game or any official media. And it appears to be one that the writers, quest developers, and world designers at Blizzard disagree with. They could have presented High Elves as the clinging survivors of an extinct culture, rarely folded into other societies like a diamond in coal. But that ship sailed ten years ago. They've been used to drive the Alliance story far too much to ignore - as it is, I think the Alliance will always feel incomplete without playable High Elves.

It's got representations in-game as well. Most recently in the Suramar Insurrection campaign, where Vereesa's Silver Covenant forces consist of essentially her and two other High Elven soldiers compared to the rest of the detachment being Night Elven sentinels (whereas Liadrin and Rommath's Blood Elven detachment is equal to the size of both the Night Elves and the High Elves present). Even in the ZA interlude Halduron explains that the bulk of his Farstriders are otherwise engaged and unable to be recalled in time, whereas Vereesa's detachment is likely *all* the Farstriders the Silver Covenant has in its ranks.

I won't deny that High Elven storylines and influence have driven the story on the Alliance side in places - and that's really part and parcel of why this debate continues in the first place. To have such a small population wield such a disproportionate power over the story causes consternation and understandable confusion. It's that very notion that makes me think that the High Elves probably *should* be a playable option despite the argument above - to do otherwise feels like a denial of players to take part in that aspect of their own faction's story.

As for differences - it oughta be self-evident that there's a heck of a lot more cultural difference between the Blood Elves who essentially forged a new identity for themselves (I mean, that's what TFT is all about) and the High Elves whose culture has continued to evolve and gain definition over the past decade as a foil to the Blood Elves (as the Forsaken to the Scourge and the Draenei to the Manari), than between a Blood Elf and an exiled Blood Elf. Visually, I'm much less invested (though I do feel Void Elves look way too much like Belf DKs with Sylvanas skin - does this kill chances for Forsaken Elves?). Perhaps they will introduce a satisfactory storyline for Void Elves. But recent interviews with Muffinus indicate that the first four Allied Races will primarily be unlocked via Legion quest content. We've seen similar handwaves before - I think there's a legitimate fear that their origins may not go much deeper than that Alleria dialogue.

The difference argument is an external one - it has to do with gameplay functionality, silhouette profiling, and other non-lore based aspects. If High Elves became playable there would be no other racial paring (cross faction) with the same degree of similitude. Blood Elves are pretty distinct model and rigging-wise from Night Elves, or Humans, and leagues different from Draenei, Dwarves, Worgen, or Gnomes. If the High Elves entered the fray you would have an Alliance race with very little in the way of a different profile from a Horde race - so much so that absent colored nameplates you couldn't tell a difference at a glance. While Void Elves and Nightborne also muddy this line a touch (in my own opinion) they're still pretty visually distinct from a profile sense - Nightborne can be quickly differentiated from Night Elves, and Void Elves have a visual flare with their Void effects that put them apart from both High and Blood Elves.

We're in very early days yet. Storylines have yet to be finalized, dialogues have yet to be written, they are months and months away from the VO booth. We're at the stage where everything is subject to change. And a stage where healthy discussion actually has an infinitesimal sliver of a chance of being productive. Not when it's based on denigrating and condescending to those with different opinions, to which several posters in this thread have resorted (and really, if you have to rely on that, your argument's probably not so hot). But when it's based on mutual respect. I think a lively discourse - here, on the official forums, on Reddit - is a good thing. From what little we know, Void Elves (IMO) don't make much narrative sense, and really only satisfy fans of the Blood Elf model who don't want to switch from Alliance. I think they offer far greater story potential, plot consistency, and player satisfaction as a subgroup of High Elves (I've articulated elsewhere in this thread why Sons of Lothar helfs present the ideal background).

On this score, I actually kind of agree - I think the better approach would've been to have the Void Elves come from High Elven stock. I think there's something to be said for the notion that the Alliance gaining a portion of what was once a Horde race being off-putting, especially in BfA where faction rivalries are once more coming front and center in everyone's minds. I would've envisioned the Void Elves as former High Elven partisans whose loyalty to faction perhaps outpaced their reasoning, and in their zeal followed under Alleria's auspices to become masters of the Void. You could have Alleria then help pull them back from the brink (partially), giving them an origin story and also perhaps closing the book on the High Elven controversy by making them truly a playable race and simultaneously giving them their own unique profile.