Naxxramas 60 vs Naxxramas 80 difficulty?

[Deleted]

Sounds like you didn't play Naxx 60.

Or you don't understand the difference between difficulty and complexity.

Sounds like you haven't killed KJ mythic.

[Lora]

Naxx 60 was more difficult than naxx 80. For starters you needed 6-8 tanks just to do four horseman. You needed priests to spec shadow to mind control for razuvious.

[iamthedevil]

Nihilum cleared Naxx in wrath with some sunwell gear they used to level with, so no. Gear was irrelevant, naxx in wrath was just a complete joke.

My guild did it too btw.

Gear was better itemized come Sunwell.

[Morssoe]

lvl 60 naxx is easier than 80

[iamthedevil]

That's pretty much irrelevant. Tuning is made according to the expected power of characters, including their gear, so saying "gear was more powerful" is nonsensical.
It's about the same argument as saying "well we were lvl 80 instead of 60".

Hah you think Blizzard was finely tuning things in vanilla around your gear? They couldn't tune a guitar at that point.

[Rampant Rabbit]

You're thinking Windfury totem.

God I miss that thing, enhance shaman in a 5 man was the only way a tank ever felt like they could do damage.

Windfury Totem with 2H sword spec and Hand of Justice was so much fun.

[Moralgy]

Anyone making that claim is absolutely wrong. 25man naxx was puggable with little to any trouble after a few weeks. I would argue it was easier than most LFRs these days while lvl 60 naxx had damage output that was extremely high for player hp.

The only "hard" thing about 25man naxx was doing patchwerk with tanks that hit lvl 80 a few hours before we raided. (Would gib our poor 14-15k hp tanks fairly often)

[Osmeric]

I've not checked in with you in a while Osmeric will you be playing classic or avoiding it like a plague?

Not much interest in it, but if guild mates need me there I will probably roll a character.

It won't be the true Vanilla experience without the stuck-crouched-over-looting bug, though.

[harruin]

A lot of people don't remember the content drought early WotLK had because you didn't have to run heroics to full clear Naxx80. Every server was doing full clear pugs within a month of release (really 1-3 weeks). You got whatever the wotlk badge of justices were from heroics, but I really can't remember if there was a point.

[Nitros14]

Gear was better itemized come Sunwell.

Clearing content with items 80 item levels lower than what the instance dropped is a little silly.

[Mysta]

Plain and simple:
There were no catch-up mechanics.
Fights weren't really that hard back then, getting gear was.
There were tons of checks through various raids that required gear that cost money/materials/rep farming. Every tier you had to farm out the previous to get to where you could fight the first dps check. If you go back and do it all again, assuming you have a full 40 raid of intelligent people, it will still be hard because of the checks/walls you will encounter. Now it will probably be easier because more people will be dedicated to it, but it took a ton of time to do, regardless of how 'skilled' you are.

If you use the 'we're better now' argument, you probably didn't play or don't really remember what it was about. Most classes didn't even have many skills, like seriously just spamming a skill or a lower level version of it to conserve mana, wand a judgement to get more mana, rinse/repeat. It was never hard. It was hard gearing 40 people to a point where it was physically possible to kill a boss before the everyone oom'd out and people started dropping to damage. Go do your challenge in mage tower with 840 gear and then you'll have an idea of what vanilla was like.

[Tordentor]

My memory was a bit fuzzy, I thought when the emblem gear came out it was set to the previous tier and not current? I do think I mentioned it being set to 10man or something as 25man seemed to be requiring you to go into the raid rather than gather badges.

As always, people discussing vanilla and wrath are highly selective about what they tell you. Yes, you could technically buy set pieces with emblems of frost. You could get a maximum of 93 emblems of frost per week, the chest/head/legs cost 1100 marks. So it would take you approx. 35 weeks just to get the three main pieces. It was never meant as a viable way to gear up, but a way to supplement bad rolls/drops. You could gain emblem of conquest(triumph, I wrote the wrong name), but this did, as you rightly remember, only buy last raid tier gear. And this is completely disregarding the 10.5 tier and other pieces of loot.

Plain and simple:
There were no catch-up mechanics.

I can easily find some people that disagree with you there.

[RapBreon]

Windfury Totem with 2H sword spec and Hand of Justice was so much fun.

Aw man I miss that trinket.

[Azadina]

Nope, because dungeons started to drop emblems allowing to get Ulduar gear, making it obsolete.

Don't know from which world you come, because in mine they sure did.

Emblems were not really relevant. Totgc 25 normal was ridiculously easy, even to pugs. Oh, and it dropped higher itemlevel gear than Ulduar 25 hardmodes. That was what made Ulduar obsolete, atleast to pugs. Pugs could handle Ulduar far less than Totgc 25 normal, and first 4 bosses into ICC, including heroic lootship.

[Evangeliste]

I think this kind of comparison is really silly.

Why?

Crash Bandicoot remake.

Why do I say that?

Because it demonstrates an era where with the lack of graphics, they made the gameplay hard by adding a very sharp learning curve with simple mechanics. "Graphics didn't change much in Wrath" or you'd assume because at the centre of it the playable races hadn't changed but if you look at Dragon models from Vanilla to Wrath, or the terrain of Icecrown to Duskwood you'd see there were huge changes. Coding got better by having more sophisticated tech like phasing in Icecrown which caused havoc with questing in groups and so on.

Simple fact is as the game evolved so did basically everything from code to make interesting mechanics, win/lose conditions and on top of that Wrath had 12 million subs compared at Vanilla's peak of 2m... Yeah, every factor will make Naxx 60 be 'harder' than Naxx 80. With the new Naxx they changed it for being a gateway/entry/first raid which is generally easier compared to it being an end raid which is made difficult to slow people down before the next expansion for development time.

Both Naxx's will be subject to nostalgia and a variety of other factors that will make this discussion actually pointless, because it will always be opinion...

[TemporalAnarchy]

As always, people discussing vanilla and wrath are highly selective about what they tell you. Yes, you could technically buy set pieces with emblems of frost. You could get a maximum of 93 emblems of frost per week, the chest/head/legs cost 1100 marks. So it would take you approx. 35 weeks just to get the three main pieces. It was never meant as a viable way to gear up, but a way to supplement bad rolls/drops. You could gain emblem of conquest(triumph, I wrote the wrong name), but this did, as you rightly remember, only buy last raid tier gear. And this is completely disregarding the 10.5 tier and other pieces of loot.

Tier chest/helm/legs used to cost 95 Emblems of Frost. Shoulders and gloves were 60. They at one point cost 1100 JUSTICE POINTS, but that was the Cataclysm successor to Badges/Emblems. This same pricing structure applied to the non-tier items, except they were ilvl 264 instead of 251 like the tier.

You not only were intended to buy tier from the vendor, it was REQUIRED. The 251 vendor version was upgraded to the 264 10H/25N version via token drop, and to the 277 25H by using a heroic raid token in conjunction with the 264 piece. You could not obtain tier of any level in ICC without first purchasing the vendor version for Emblems of Frost.

I can easily find some people that disagree with you there.

The best catchup mechanic at level 60 was the conversion to Honor 2.0, as it allowed any random scrub to get Grand Marshal/High Warlord gear. This launched with patch 2.0, about a month before TBC. The actual catchup mechanics in Vanilla were pretty abyssal.

[MyndZero]

Wrath naxx was undertuned and easy. Classic naxx was more punishing. One of the abilities on a boss in wrath naxx would do equivalent to 25% of your health if you got hit by it, in classic naxx it would do like 80% of your health.

This is an avoidable mechanic, but you can see how much more punishing it was back in the day in comparison.

[Deleted]

"main tank death was a wipe"

today its:

"COMBAT RES HIM"
"OMG HE DIED AGAIN"
"COMBAT RES HIM AGAIN"
"TAUNT THE BOSS!!!"
"LUL HE FELL OFF THE PLATTFORM AFTER BACKPADDLE"
"DON'T WORRY HIS CORPSE SPAWNS AT THE TOP"
"RES HIM AGAIN"
"NO RES AVAILABLE"
"DONT WORRY ROGUE IS TANKING WITH PARRY"
"BOSS IS DEAD, LUL TANK GOT 955 BIS RING"
"AND THE ACHIEVEMENT TOO"

#legion

[Evangeliste]

"main tank death was a wipe"

today its:

"COMBAT RES HIM"
"OMG HE DIED AGAIN"
"COMBAT RES HIM AGAIN"
"TAUNT THE BOSS!!!"
"LUL HE FELL OFF THE PLATTFORM AFTER BACKPADDLE"
"DON'T WORRY HIS CORPSE SPAWNS AT THE TOP"
"RES HIM AGAIN"
"NO RES AVAILABLE"
"DONT WORRY ROGUE IS TANKING WITH PARRY"
"BOSS IS DEAD, LUL TANK GOT 955 BIS RING"
"AND THE ACHIEVEMENT TOO"

#legion

Firstly, you know tanking has been made easier and easier because of the huge responsibility they have up front right? It's why 2 hero classes have tanking and why over the years the way tanks work has been gutted completely with threat, gear combos, resistances and more.

Secondly, sure it's funny but also ignorant. And you're also probably quoting Heroic at a push but Normal or lower - or really early raids because even in earlier expansions bosses like Ragnaros in Cata had 700+ tries to do on 25man Heroic, KJ had easily 500 tries on Mythic before it fell for world firsts. That also excludes several hundred hours of these guilds being on PTR to experience everything to help themselves in that rat race.
And they changed 40man because in a 40 man raid, having 6-8 people carry that much pressure, with 30+ people depending on them to do their shit properly is why it lasted only Vanilla... Because they didn't work as they thought and was changed with TBC. Heck, even Vanilla they admitted 40man defeat where in some patches they had smaller raids like 15man and 20man, which was easier to get groups. Zg rings a big bell on that one.

It was a cool idea and Blizzard obviously planned it to not be that harsh because of 40 man with 6-8 tanks means it could have a few tries before wiping for a single difficulty... but it wasn't tuned that way and why it was harsh. C'Thun tuned to be a guild breaker and a colossal unkillable fuckwit before it was patched demonstrates at how hard Blizzard made it in ignorance really.

For 12 years they've now accepted the fact that a stars aligned perfect pull, with the best RNG combination ever in existence is a very stupid thing but a near-perfect pull with some errors and misfires is a decent stance when it's either 25man, Heroic, Mythic, whatever it was over the years to be the hardest difficulty, Having a single difficulty on an MMORPG was a stupid idea and why people complaining are very unobservant when they play even older games with these settings, considering for years on other PC and consoles games they had easy, normal and hard modes to cater for massive offline or even online audiences...

[Nitros14]

It's definitely true that a main tank death was almost assuredly a wipe in vanilla and that hasn't been the case since WOTLK except for a few encounters. Especially because tanks couldn't generate threat rage starved so second aggro wasn't usually possible.

Our tank gets gibbed on mythic Mannoroth here and we just shrug as he goes to the other tank, res him and kill it.