Sexual assault: court case or STFU

[Phlegethon]

I'm just the opposite. I think if ignoring statutes of limitations, and imposing monetary loss on people based on nothing more than a sole accusation is appropriate for well known people, then it should be appropriate for everyday folks as well.

I suspect that if someone could call your HR rep, claim that 20+ years ago you sexually assaulted them, and you lose your income because of it, people would change their current outlook in a hurry.

But hey, sometimes tough decisions have to be made. You either want to change social behavior, or are just enjoying the schadenfreude.

So, you think that if $random walks into HR and accuses you of anything, you should get screwed with no way of defending you?
Nah...

[Deleted]

I go with this version.

Hugh Hefner was a rich guy who essentially slept with women in exchange for making them more famous. It wasn't ever a secret that he did that.

I don't recall him ever physically intimidating or forcing a women to sleep with him. This is rather different from what Weinstein et al did.

[Macaquerie]

How many sex scandals can you think of where, as the defense always goes, the allegations were just definitively fabricated to unfairly slander a person? Sure the accuser sometimes exaggerates or flubs the details, but by and large the substance of the accusations tends to be true in most of these instances, and is either just made to shut up and go away or the public loses interest before the case is resolved.

[Deleted]

How many sex scandals can you think of where, as the defense always goes, the allegations were just definitively fabricated to unfairly slander a person? Sure the accuser sometimes exaggerates or flubs the details, but by and large the substance of the accusations tends to be true in most of these instances, and is either just made to shut up and go away or the public loses interest before the case is resolved.

From what I can recall unless a conviction or a confession actually occurs there doesn't seem to be much in the way of stigma attached to that individual.

In fact the reverse seems to be the case: what Trump did was very similar to what Weinstein, Spacey et al did. It seemed to actually help him win elections by mobilizing pathetic misognyists. Same with Schwarznegger. Maybe Clinton also. It seems Americans like their politicians kind of rape-y.

[Zmaniac17]

My new rule on sexual assault allegations: a case has been filed in criminal or civil court or shut the fuck up. Same goes for what passes for "journalism" these days - a court case is being reported or shut the fuck up. I am no longer interested in rumours, innuendo, etc. Put up or shut up.

Not defending ANYONE with this stance. I am defending the right of EVERYONE to be truly innocent unless proven guilty of some wrongdoing by the means established by society hundreds of years ago. Do not support witch hunts, red scares, nor any other kind of defamatory bullshit.

If someone is the victim of a sexual crime they need to go get the evidence established RIGHT NOW. They need to haul that suspect into court and watch them bleed. Any delay, any lack of evidence, etc. and the rest of us cannot perform our duty to an innocent victim because we can't possibly know the truth about what happened. So report it the right way. Get that rape kit. Laws exist for a reason, so use them. Defend your rights while you can. There is no shame in being a victim of a crime - the shame is remaining silent and letting the days, weeks, months, and even years pass while all of society actually wants to help you.

This is problematic. If we were to apply this standard to sexual assault, then it would need to be applied to all other illegal activities as well because there are many things that can destroy a persons career.

Investigative reporting uses the power of the press to expose wrong doing. Many things would be swept under the rug by powerful people without it. If it were somehow illegal to print a story before charges were filed then there may never be charges filed.

I also don't see anyway to enforce any of this without trampling all over the Constitution.

[Fonduset]

I don't mind the accusations. What I dislike is that the victim is allowed anonymity yet the accused does not.

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Hugh Hefner was a rich guy who essentially slept with women in exchange for making them more famous. It wasn't ever a secret that he did that.

I don't recall him ever physically intimidating or forcing a women to sleep with him. This is rather different from what Weinstein et al did.

Allegedly did*

[Macaquerie]

I don't mind the accusations. What I dislike is that the victim is allowed anonymity yet the accused does not.

I mean, if people were less shitty and didn't go after the victim for daring to speak up, then we wouldn't need anonymity.

[Moon-Man]

My new rule on sexual assault allegations: a case has been filed in criminal or civil court or shut the fuck up. Same goes for what passes for "journalism" these days - a court case is being reported or shut the fuck up. I am no longer interested in rumours, innuendo, etc. Put up or shut up.

Not defending ANYONE with this stance. I am defending the right of EVERYONE to be truly innocent unless proven guilty of some wrongdoing by the means established by society hundreds of years ago. Do not support witch hunts, red scares, nor any other kind of defamatory bullshit.

If someone is the victim of a sexual crime they need to go get the evidence established RIGHT NOW. They need to haul that suspect into court and watch them bleed. Any delay, any lack of evidence, etc. and the rest of us cannot perform our duty to an innocent victim because we can't possibly know the truth about what happened. So report it the right way. Get that rape kit. Laws exist for a reason, so use them. Defend your rights while you can. There is no shame in being a victim of a crime - the shame is remaining silent and letting the days, weeks, months, and even years pass while all of society actually wants to help you.

Law is not necessarily your friend. It's not to keep you safe, its to keep you in your place. If you don't have any evidence, dont waste the time of Lawyers and courts. If you got evidence, good on them. If not, then they should just kindly shut the fuck up. I've seen plenty innocent MEN go to jail. Court needs to have LESS favor of women, entirely. If women wants Equality, they can get the same treatment as Men, Absolute Crap.

[Machismo]

no, it is the media. they're not reporting on this in any unbiased fashion, they come out immediately on the alleged victim's side and outright say that accusers should be believed.

this shit isn't good, and we need to put a stop to it.

Can you provide examples? I'm seeing a large number of reports of allegations, which is what they should be doing.

[JohnBrown1917]

I don't mind the accusations. What I dislike is that the victim is allowed anonymity yet the accused does not.

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Allegedly did*

Just look at what did happen to those that came forward and where no anonymous.

[Elba]

One argument is that victims do owe something. Warning society of a predator. Just saying.

No they don't.

YEAH! Guilty until proven innocent!!

Gotta love that "male privilege", eh?

What has this to do with male privilege?

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See, your statement presupposes the idea that they're actually victims. So let's take out that loaded word and rephrase what you just said:

'People don't have to do anything. They can accuse whoever they want of whatever they want and should face no penalties for defamation'.

Good thing is that is not happening, eh?

[Freighter]

Court case or STFU? Haha, what? Do you think all sexual assaults even reach court? Even if you report it, the chance of it going to court is so small that you'd consider yourself lucky if it goes to court. Most of the time the police are rather dismissive towards you if you report something.

[Louisa Bannon]

Trying to extend that to public opinion is just absolute lunacy.

You are utterly cosigning the ability to destroy ANYONE on the unproven statement of another.

That's McCarthyism right there. An accuser says you are guilty of some disapproved behavior despite a complete lack of evidence and you can say goodbye to a life you once held dear. The witch trials were basically the same nonsense. And now its happening again.

One of the odd things I keep seeing in regard to all of this is that supposedly fewer than 2% of accusers make false allegations. Strangely enough we also know this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_effect Summarizing that link: memory is often quite poor. People remember things inaccurately and can even come to state the exact opposite of what they witnessed. Memory is not all that...many studies and experiments prove that out.

But sure, just keep destroying people via the media. Facts don't matter. The truth is whatever is currently being reported.

One can be fired for pretended reasons, one cannot get work for pretended reasons, etc. My understanding about the people that were blackballed during the McCarthy era is that making a living afterward was decidedly difficult. At that time, the accusation was merely that a person was a communist - which was and remains a perfectly legal activity. My understanding of political freedom is that people are actually allowed to hold differing political views, but that didn't matter when it came to destroying people via very public spectacles. Now someone that gets accused is supposed to shrug off accusation of child molestation and sexual assault? Those are actual crimes and I bet the stink of it even when its not true is very difficult to shake.

FWIW, I am one of the rabid "no means no" people on this forum. I've been banned for expressing strong opinions on it. So, I am absolutely in favor of reducing the number of people that are victimized sexually by others.

But that doesn't mean I support some mob mentality lynch party via the media either. And we have certain knowledge of how mobs or herds behave, without much actual thought. People feel goaded into behaving like brutes or worse. Others see what's going on and want to join in.

It's a foregone conclusion that this shit ends badly for us all.

[melodramocracy]

So, you think that if $random walks into HR and accuses you of anything, you should get screwed with no way of defending you?
Nah...

It was a bit tongue in cheek. The point being that people seem more than ok with what's currently being practiced with well known individuals, but would rightly have a big problem with this if the practice moved down to the general population level.

[Endus]

You are utterly cosigning the ability to destroy ANYONE on the unproven statement of another.

That's McCarthyism right there. An accuser says you are guilty of some disapproved behavior despite a complete lack of evidence and you can say goodbye to a life you once held dear. The witch trials were basically the same nonsense. And now its happening again.

Nope. What you're saying here is garbage.

Making an allegation destroys no one. Whether the public believes the allegation is the issue. And when they do, people have opinions, and act accordingly.

That is what you have a problem with.

It isn't remotely like McCarthyism, because McCarthyism was predicated on prejudice and fear, manufacturing lies. It was also a concerted, deliberate campaign against a suite of people.

One of the odd things I keep seeing in regard to all of this is that supposedly fewer than 2% of accusers make false allegations. Strangely enough we also know this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_effect Summarizing that link: memory is often quite poor. People remember things inaccurately and can even come to state the exact opposite of what they witnessed. Memory is not all that...many studies and experiments prove that out.

This isn't even an argument. This is you citing statistical data that proves you wrong, and then scrabbling desperately to try and justify why you refuse to accept the facts you just admitted to.

The reality is that false accusations are a rarity.

But sure, just keep destroying people via the media. Facts don't matter. The truth is whatever is currently being reported.

The allegations are the facts being reported. That isn't "destroying" anyone. Allegations get made at times and discarded without being seriously considered, because they're deemed ridiculous or inconsistent. The public doesn't believe them, does not find them credible. For better or for worse, compare to the accusations against Bill Clinton, which largely have not served to create the same kind of public backlash. It isn't as simple as "allegations made, life destroyed". You're denying the individual members of the public any agency in their own opinion-forming and response, and that's ludicrous.

[Louisa Bannon]

Whether the public believes the allegation is the issue. And when they do, people have opinions, and act accordingly.

They are therefore acting with incomplete information, and yet somehow you think that such decision making can be rational and not biased.

I herd one sidez 'n can haz opinionz.

The reality is that false accusations are a rarity.

Yeah, I used to take that assertion at face value also. Then I realized it was almost certainly total nonsense given what else we know about memory, eyewitness and victim testimony, etc.

For better or for worse, compare to the accusations against Bill Clinton, which largely have not served to create the same kind of public backlash. It isn't as simple as "allegations made, life destroyed".

If you somehow think that Bill and Hillary Clinton are not roundly hated for the endless shit that has been said of them via the media for literally years, then I attribute that to your apparently living in Canada. Down here in the United States I can assure you that most people with living brain cells saw Hillary losing the last election on the basis of that hatred alone. Hell, we're still investigating what really went down in terms of all of the false news via facebook, etc.

Is that a real argument, Endus? I mean jeez...

You're denying the individual members of the public any agency in their own opinion-forming and response, and that's ludicrous.

Right, because mob mentality isn't a thing psychologists actually talk about. Oh wait...

[Deleted]

I agree, this whole deal is starting to look an awful lot like the medieval witch hunts. People were publicly punished without even a shred of evidence, the same could be said now.

And what if someone is innocent? You have the social stigma for life. People will always be suspicious. You entire life is ruined.

That's why things like this should be settled in court, and not in the media.

[Ghostpanther]

I agree with you OP. This is getting out of hand. Ether have the proof before you make accusations or stfu.

[Pantalaimon]

I can see where you are coming from it is frustrating, but honestly I think this has been a long way coming, and this is just the beginning this is going to have reverberations all over, Hollywood is just a microcosm of this kind of behavior.

I see this overall a positive thing. Uncomfortable, and harsh but it has the potential to do some good.

But yeah, I am in agreement with you somewhat.

The courts need to try this not public opinion, because if that priority isn't set this can go the wrong way and just get fucked up in terms of being something that could be used to make a positive change.

I mostly agree too, but the majority of the public eye can't truthfully detect when an accusation that is many years or decades old as legit and when it is a lie & potentially being used for political, social, and/or economic gain. So, with that in mind I can't decidedly say for myself that what is going on with the witch-hunting is an overall positive thing or not. Will it set precedent for making falsified claims even more likely to take root and be accepted by society as truth because 'everyone' is suddenly coming out as a 'real' victim?

[Doctor Amadeus]

I mostly agree too, but the majority of the public eye can't truthfully detect when an accusation that is many years or decades old as legit and when it is a lie & potentially being used for political, social, and/or economic gain. So, with that in mind I can't decidedly say for myself that what is going on with the witch-hunting is an overall positive thing or not. Will it set precedent for making falsified claims even more likely to take root and be accepted by society as truth because 'everyone' is suddenly coming out as a 'real' victim?

Yeah that someone adults by adults grown ups and people who are mature and know better regardless to background and ideology need to start being the grown ups and discouraging that type of shit.

The law isn't perfect, we can't make accusations and public opinion go away in people's minds. What we can do is treat those accused fairly and as innocent until proven otherwise, and the accusers with respect, but serious scrutiny that is prudent when collecting evidence. If someone isn't convicted there shouldn't be any stigma, just as if someone doesn't have enough evidence the same thing.

Sometimes there just isn't enough evidence nothing should be inferred without proof anymore than someone being accused. The system has tools to work to protect both, let them work.

Unless proven they can't otherwise.