Start with 1.1 and progress patches to 1.12.2

[Eurhetemec]

1. Exactly. No private server offers an authentic Vanilla feel. Period. If blizzard has Patches 1.1 and 1.12 data - the obvious choice should be 1.1, and then replicate the patch notes. Problem with this however is that would require them to develop it further which they might not want to do depending on popularity. I've had my subscription from 2005 - 2016 non-stop. I remember vanilla. And I've tried most private servers, so no I dont need to stop talking about "authentic feel".

So you don't know what loot-scoot is, then? Is that what you're saying? Because anyone who played on the US servers between about November 2004 and November 2005 should. Y'know, when loot lag stuck you in the crouching position for 10+ minutes?

2. That makes no sense. If every raid is released at start it will be cleared in a month or two and people will leave. However if its progressive (new raid every 2-3months) the hardcore raiders will be forced to wait and they will. Thus playing longer.

I take it you don't know what "staged content release" means? I.e. you don't release all the raids at once - first MC/Ony, then BWL, then AQ etc.

I dont know why you're expecting me to have all the answers, the logical ones is what I offer. They should take the earliest build they have, broken classes or not. If there was a time when feral druids finisher didnt work then so be it. They fixed in vanilla, and they can fix it later in classic.
As for game breaking bugs, the simple answer is ban the people who do it, and fix it when it happens. They dont need to focus on it now.

If you're claiming something is the "only logical solution", and you can't answer basic questions like those, then you are not being logical.

They don't have the proper back-ends for ANY Vanilla builds (except possibly 1.12 I believe). This is what you don't seem to get. The Vanilla builds people have re-creations of WoW, from the CLIENT-SIDE patches, with limited information about what was going on server-side (if this isn't correct, hopefully an emulation expert can correct me), because to obtain the server-side stuff, you'd need to have cloned or hacked a WoW server (which may have happened a couple of times, but it'll only be for very specific patches if so).

The idea that they should just let well-known exploits go live, then ban people after the fact isn't even worth arguing with.

[Rupenbritz]

So you don't know what loot-scoot is, then? Is that what you're saying? Because anyone who played on the US servers between about November 2004 and November 2005 should. Y'know, when loot lag stuck you in the crouching position for 10+ minutes?

I played on EU and started November 2005, but we still had this then. We called it "loot lagg"..

I take it you don't know what "staged content release" means? I.e. you don't release all the raids at once - first MC/Ony, then BWL, then AQ etc.

So basically we are agreeing.. I dont know how you could misinterpet what I wrote so badly :P

If you're claiming something is the "only logical solution", and you can't answer basic questions like those, then you are not being logical.

They don't have the proper back-ends for ANY Vanilla builds (except possibly 1.12 I believe). This is what you don't seem to get. The Vanilla builds people have re-creations of WoW, from the CLIENT-SIDE patches, with limited information about what was going on server-side (if this isn't correct, hopefully an emulation expert can correct me), because to obtain the server-side stuff, you'd need to have cloned or hacked a WoW server (which may have happened a couple of times, but it'll only be for very specific patches if so).

The idea that they should just let well-known exploits go live, then ban people after the fact isn't even worth arguing with.

If 1.12 is the only build they have, then its only logical to use that build. Thats what I said from the start. They should use the earliest build they have.
Can you stop acting like I love private servers? Im a developer and I know fully well the piece of crap that is mangos..

[Wyattbw09]

I hope they just start at 1.11 and be done with it. For the 500 people playing the game after week two they might well just be able to grind what they want to grind and be done with it.

[Eurhetemec]

So basically we are agreeing.. I dont know how you could misinterpet what I wrote so badly :P

No.

I'm saying that you use the mechanics of a patch that actually worked, and stage the content release, not that you try to replicate each patch in terms of both mechanics and content.

If 1.12 is the only build they have, then its only logical to use that build. Thats what I said from the start. They should use the earliest build they have. Can you stop acting like I love private servers? Im a developer and I know fully well the piece of crap that is mangos..

No, you said that they had to start with the earliest build they had. That's what doesn't make sense.

[Independent voter]

It's like there's a whole group that wants to recreate the private Nostalrius server, they started at 1.12 which was a patch just 2 months away from the launch of TBC. A lot of us want an authentic vanilla experience and would like to start at 1.1

Fixing bugs like the the loot lag bug is fine and I think the vast majority of players would agree.

If we do start at 1.1 keep in mind that after a few months we'll wind up at 1.12 just like you want.

[Eurhetemec]

It's like there's a whole group that wants to recreate the private Nostalrius server, they started at 1.12 which was a patch just 2 months away from the launch of TBC. A lot of us want an authentic vanilla experience and would like to start at 1.1

Fixing bugs like the the loot lag bug is fine and I think the vast majority of players would agree.

What about bugs like the Druid Feral finisher literally not working at all for 2-3 months? Or similar gameplay bugs? I think the vast majority of people would say "fix them", but there are people in this thread saying "don't fix them". I'm not talking balancing, I'm talking clear bugs.

If we do start at 1.1 keep in mind that after a few months we'll wind up at 1.12 just like you want.

You won't, though. That's the thing. It'll take what, 17 months?

Further, it may well take longer, as they'll have to essentially re-create each patch AND backend from scratch, and with a smaller team than they had back then. It's a monumental task, one many, many times harder than starting at quasi-1.12 and slowly releasing content.

What you want only matters if it's practically possible. Otherwise off to Big Rock Candy Mountain with you.

[Echocho]

If they do 1.1>1.12 then that would be it. You can't unpatch the client. Every new realm would start at 1.12.

[Dahij]

Logically, its the only way it would be successful in my opinion.

Fixed it again. You're welcome!

[Independent voter]

What about bugs like the Druid Feral finisher literally not working at all for 2-3 months? Or similar gameplay bugs? I think the vast majority of people would say "fix them", but there are people in this thread saying "don't fix them". I'm not talking balancing, I'm talking clear bugs.

If it's a legit bug, fix it. I think most reasonable people feel that way.

You won't, though. That's the thing. It'll take what, 17 months?

Further, it may well take longer, as they'll have to essentially re-create each patch AND backend from scratch, and with a smaller team than they had back then. It's a monumental task, one many, many times harder than starting at quasi-1.12 and slowly releasing content.

What you want only matters if it's practically possible. Otherwise off to Big Rock Candy Mountain with you.

They can take their time.

The real classic experience starts at the 1.1 patch. 1.12 is just two months away from TBC.

[Lasombria]

TLDR: Start with patch 1.1 just as WoW was released back in 2004, then following the same schedule release patches up untile 1.12.2 the final patch before TBC was released. One of the reasons is that patch 1.12 characters are way stronger than 1.1 characters and clear content much easier.

Makes sense to me. Ongoing change is very much part of the vanilla experience, as with every expansion since.

1 - So no private server an an "authentic" Vanilla feel?

Based on how their advocates present them, no. Perpetual play in a static configuration, willy-nilly adjustment of things like respec costs...it adds up to something that's significantly removed from actual early WoW.

[Eurhetemec]

Based on how their advocates present them, no. Perpetual play in a static configuration, willy-nilly adjustment of things like respec costs...it adds up to something that's significantly removed from actual early WoW.

What would the solution be, then? Cycling through patches 1.1 to 1.12 on some sort of schedule? That seems like another kind of fake to me.

Without time-travel, I think you have to accept that something in 2017 will always, inevitably, be "significantly removed" from 2004-2006. I mean, I can rent a warehouse, invite all the people from my teenage years, and get a DJ to play Happy Hardcore at ear-shattering volume, but it's going to be an experience "significantly removed" from 1996. To imagine the experience won't be "significantly removed" is, with respect, unreasonable and unrealistic and guarantees you will be bitter and disappointed.

[Lasombria]

What would the solution be, then? Cycling through patches 1.1 to 1.12 on some sort of schedule?

Sure. Pace it to take about 1.5-2 years, and then reset it, offer folks an option to transfer to a TBC server, or whatever.

[Eurhetemec]

If it's a legit bug, fix it. I think most reasonable people feel that way.

It's good that you think that, but a number of people are indeed saying "if they fix bugs and exploits, it's not Vanilla". Someone is going to be unhappy either way. I suspect fixing outright bugs means more happiness.

The big problem is what is a "legit bug"? It's hard to deny an ability simply not function is a "legit bug", but what about being about to press Divine Favor after casting a healing spell to force it to crit? Blizzard said it was a bug and patched it in 1.10, but is it a "legit bug", or an "unintended mechanic" or whatever? And whatever you or I think, we can guarantee someone will loudly disagree.

They can take their time.

The real classic experience starts at the 1.1 patch. 1.12 is just two months away from TBC.

The trouble, I think, is the lack of backend data, or real patch data, for most of the earlier patches. If they do try to replicate every single patch, it's going to be an incredible amount of work with uncertain results, which is why previous, fan-driven attempts haven't done it.

As someone who did start day 1 US (open beta, actually but...), I think saying "real classic experience starts with 1.1" is essentially a myth, and one repeated by people who weren't there. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but it's really a myth, or a half-truth at best.

WoW was barely playable during the first month or two. The game went down entirely for 1-12 hours, sometimes even longer, every few hours. If it was up for 24 hours in a row, it was a miracle. The loot server or world server regularly either got lagged out or disconnected (only the chat server seemed largely immune). There were magical periods where everything worked and WoW was the most exciting MMO out there, but they didn't last long and I remember spending an awful lot of time playing DAoC waiting for WoW to come back up. I would thus suggest that 1.2 or 1.3 are where WoW actually started for most players. Especially in the EU - I notice some of the people here are EU players who are claiming "WoW Classic has to start at 1.1!", and honestly they should know better, given they didn't even get it until patch 1.2.

1.12.2 is two months from TBC but was not a "pre-patch", I should note. It did not model major TBC systems and changes, unlike later expansions.

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Sure. Pace it to take about 1.5-2 years, and then reset it, offer folks an option to transfer to a TBC server, or whatever.

That seems every bit as "fake" to me, and guaranteed to piss people off when their characters get wiped/locked. Not sure Blizzard would be keen to piss people off like that.

[Bas Prime]

having just read some of the threads, and being one of the people who would like to see classic with the improvements (area loot, auto loot, connected flight paths, Maraudon from the beginning so you can enjoy it while leveling for example, and no lfr, lfd but a good lfd option to find people faster kinda like find custom group now) I tend to thin, that it would be best just to start with Vanilla as it was and then go through the patches. I will just be the easiest way. Though it is really hard for me to not tell the "but that was classic" crowd that blizz then should let the servers crash all the time because THIS WAS CLASSIC. But lets be grown ups, and hope blizz finds a good way. Maybe everyone must be open for a compromise, and if area loot and connected flight paths are implimented and people rage, I think there wont be any help for those people.

[Lasombria]

That seems every bit as "fake" to me, and guaranteed to piss people off when their characters get wiped/locked. Not sure Blizzard would be keen to piss people off like that.

Whereas to me, freezing at any particular point and acting like the game changed (if at all) only in the accessibility of particular bits like Ahn'Qiraj feels much faker.

Not a lot any of us can do about our aesthetic reactions, really, except make 'em known and then see how Blizzard sorts it out. Whooooo boy am I glad I'm not on that team right now.

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Though it is really hard for me to not tell the "but that was classic" crowd that blizz then should let the servers crash all the time because THIS WAS CLASSIC.

I played most of vanilla on Argent Dawn, and a regular Tuesday afternoon/evening feature was that Blackhand would be down longer than other servers, thanks to the fondness of a significant chunk of its very high population for exploits that required more resetting each week. So a bunch of them would get bored and come over to troll Argent Dawn, it being the first RP server in an alphabetical list. They'd engage in a lot of verbal abuse, disrupt gatherings, the whole deal. It slooowly settled down as Blizzard got better at closing exploitable loopholes and banning some of the worst offenders, but continued on at moderate volume into Burning Crusade.

Somehow I don't feel like including that is really essential to a true vanilla experience...but in annoyed moments I almost wish it were.

All of which is to say, I hear ya.

[Bas Prime]

Somehow I don't feel like including that is really essential to a true vanilla experience...but in annoyed moments I almost wish it were.

All of which is to say, I hear ya.

Seeing all the forum posts about this field, I understand why blizz avoided this topic so long. Its basically a clusterfuck, and they wont be able to please everyone. And of course, I am not seriously asking for those things. But I just dont get it why area loot or connected flight paths should be not in the game, because they where not ingame in classic.
Seeing all this just makes me take a look at crealms and be there for fun, but remembering what made classic fun (to me, the community, the hanging out with people in teamspeak, defending xroads when the alliance inviaded barrens at 7pm.
I would never want to grind for rank 12 in pvp again, and I was in the group of the first high warlord on my realm. It was horrible, and yes, fun at the same time. I still would never do that again. The raid mechanics are...well, very easy looking back. No change to that will become boring very soon. But I would love to be wrong and classic will work for many people. I really dont want to trade places with blizzards devs.

[Dergiab]

Lacerate - 31 point Hunter talent in the Survival tree. Lasted until 1.7 and is one of the reasons not to start at the earliest patch if you want to maintain the tiny amount of balance that Vanilla had.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Lacerate_(Hunter)

[Daffan]

Best way to do it is by starting at 1.12.1 and gradually releasing content as most private servers do.

Even with staggered content, 1.12.1 makes everything pretty easy.

1.12.1 basically turns Vanilla into a "waiting for Naxx" simulator.

[brunnor]

Progression servers are exactly what I want out of it as well. Everquest does this exact thing every so often and it brings out a ton of players to get in at the "start" of the game, or whatever point they want to play at. If they only like Naxx, then they can wait til Naxx, if they want AQ, wait for that etc etc.

My personal thoughts are that Blizzard should just roll full WoW life progression servers if the Vanilla ones go well. There is no reason they can't just have new servers start in vanilla and end at current game state. Toss them at like 3-4 times the speed of their original times and call it a day. Vanilla out for 9-12 months before TBC, TBC out the same, Wrath out 7-9 months before Cata etc etc.

Picking a patch and letting it stay there will cause vanilla/classic servers to be a failure. People can't have fun doing the same thing over and over for years upon years. Well at least a lot of people can't. Sure, some folks could do it, but a majority like some form of progression. Once you get BiS naxx gear on a char, the only thing left is to do it again on another, once you run out of chars to care about, you are "done" with the game. That isn't what MMORPGs should be. Having an "end" to the game is what will cause it to die.

[Detheavn]

In all honesty, I think all leveling dungeons and quests should be present at the beginning. There's no reason to revisit those later save for alts, and anyone who's either played vanilla on private servers, or anything on live isn't as new to this to take months after months of leveling. Anyone who still believes it takes months to level your main to 60 > month is either taking their damn time, or hasn't even played a game before.