What role will Azshara play in BfA?

[Redroniksre]

It seems hopes for a full Azshara expansion died with bfa honestly. Whatever blizz choose to do with her now will be shit, we'll either kill her or she'll escape only to be killed in the next raid or maybe next expansion as like a dungeon boss summoning nzoth. Either way in bfa she will get 1 medium - large patch of content, which is a disgrace even for blizzard's low standard of lore - ingame relation, but hey. So yeah enjoy the 2 months or so of an Azshara tier cos thats all were getting, and considering blizzard's pandering to vashjir haters nazjatar will probably get the same "raised off the sea floor" kinda treatment the broken isles did

Most people hated the gameplay of Vashj'ir, and Azshara is not the super important character people are making her out to be. She was relevant in the first war of the ancients, that's it. Since then she hasn't done much and her power level doesn't even exceed many of the villains we have already fought. She is N'zoth's lackey, hes the actual threat.

[McFuu]

Mid tier raid fodder, exactly where she and her boring story belong.

[Exilian]

Most people hated the gameplay of Vashj'ir, and Azshara is not the super important character people are making her out to be. She was relevant in the first war of the ancients, that's it. Since then she hasn't done much and her power level doesn't even exceed many of the villains we have already fought. She is N'zoth's lackey, hes the actual threat.

Only melee characters hated the 3d hitbox of Vashj'ir, and given that the game is now quite a few years older and the devs have more experience, im sure it could be fixed. And i would suggest brushing up on the lore here, Azshara is probably archimonde/KJ level of power, far exceeding many of the previous expansion bosses like Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing, and Garrosh. She is N'zoth's lackey true, but to write her off because of that would be like saying archimonde and KJ are irrelevant cos theyre jsut Sargeras's lackeys

[Redroniksre]

Only melee characters hated the 3d hitbox of Vashj'ir, and given that the game is now quite a few years older and the devs have more experience, im sure it could be fixed. And i would suggest brushing up on the lore here, Azshara is probably archimonde/KJ level of power, far exceeding many of the previous expansion bosses like Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing, and Garrosh. She is N'zoth's lackey true, but to write her off because of that would be like saying archimonde and KJ are irrelevant cos theyre jsut Sargeras's lackeys

And we beat both of them, i mean that doesn't mean much when we talk about gameplay since that isn't relevant. And yeah but KJ is also a second tier boss, so Azshara is getting plenty of proper treatment, as giving her her own expansion would be overplaying her character. Lorewise we have beaten harder than her, and lore wise she again has not been doing anything since the WoA. She really isn't as important as people make her out to be.

[Qualia]

And i would suggest brushing up on the lore here, Azshara is probably archimonde/KJ level of power, far exceeding many of the previous expansion bosses like Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing, and Garrosh.

And I would suggest you put an "I think" there, as there has been no indication whatsoever that the bolded part is currently true. Thousands years ago, when she still had full access to the original Well of Eternity, she was still below Archimonde / KJ. Now she's lost it - one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful source of power we've seen in WoW. Sure, she might have gotten some empowered by N'Zoth, but again, there has been no indication that she is "Archimonde / KJ level of power". In fact, it's doubtful she is even at current Illidan or Cata Deathwing level of power even - please remind me if I missed it, but as far as I can recall, she has never been shown to be capable of destroying any continent (current Illidan) or being capable of life-wiping the world (DW) / destroying it (Archimonde / KJ) yet? Azshara might be powerful, but you are making her to be more than what we've seen of her. Blizzard can still hype her up, give her some extra empowerment and such if they want, but for now, her power *in relative to ours* (and this is important) doesn't guarantee her a final boss slot.

And no, not just melee - as a SP, I hate Vash'jr as well. Levelling there was such a pain. 3D maneuver / combat just wasn't good enough, that's why people hated Malygos fight as well.

[Exilian]

And we beat both of them, i mean that doesn't mean much when we talk about gameplay since that isn't relevant. And yeah but KJ is also a second tier boss, so Azshara is getting plenty of proper treatment, as giving her her own expansion would be overplaying her character. Lorewise we have beaten harder than her, and lore wise she again has not been doing anything since the WoA. She really isn't as important as people make her out to be.

Yeah but the difference is KJ and his master Sargeras are thematically the same - theyre both demons, or something of the like, within that demonic theme of the Burning Legion. Azshara and N'zoth, on the other hand, are entirely different. Azshara is a water-based character, with Naga, Nazjatar, and all of that stuff, while N'zoth is void-based, corruption, and Old God tentacle goodness. And btw going by your logic Deathwing was also just a pawn of N'zoth and he did absolutely nothing of note since WoA yet he got an entire expansion around him, he trashed the whole world ffs.

We have no idea what Azshara has been up to for the past few millennia. Shes had undisturbed time to hone her skills and gather her armies. She's not only important, shes literally THE most important character we've yet left to face from the original WC lore, and the fact that shes barely been physically showing up in game only makes her more mysterious. The fact that you dont find her interesting is your own thing, but to disregard her importance when literally all lore regarding her points otherwise is plain stupid.

[iamthedevil]

She's definitely got something to do with the Sea Priests.

[Exilian]

And I would suggest you put an "I think" there, as there has been no indication whatsoever that the bolded part is currently true. Thousands years ago, when she still had full access to the original Well of Eternity, she was still below Archimonde / KJ. Now she's lost it - one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful source of power we've seen in WoW. Sure, she might have gotten some empowered by N'Zoth, but again, there has been no indication that she is "Archimonde / KJ level of power". In fact, it's doubtful she is even at current Illidan or Cata Deathwing level of power even - please remind me if I missed it, but as far as I can recall, she has never been shown to be capable of destroying any continent (current Illidan) or being capable of life-wiping the world (DW) / destroying it (Archimonde / KJ) yet? Azshara might be powerful, but you are making her to be more than what we've seen of her. Blizzard can still hype her up, give her some extra empowerment and such if they want, but for now, her power *in relative to ours* (and this is important) doesn't guarantee her a final boss slot.

And no, not just melee - as a SP, I hate Vash'jr as well. Levelling there was such a pain. 3D maneuver / combat just wasn't good enough, that's why people hated Malygos fight as well.

Well look, discussions about fictional character power levels are inherently pointless because, as Stan Lee said, the one who wins is the one whom the story wants to win. I mean were literally defetaing Sargeras this expansion, and although its not a classic "death", trapping him forever seems pretty close. But that aside, it was mentioned in one of the stories that when Azshara let the Legion into Azeroth, Mannoroth at one point grew annoyed with her and tried to strike her, only to realise that she was far more powerful than him, quite possibly at the level of his masters (i.e. Archimond and KJ). Since that time she's had 10k years to suck off N'zoth, hone her powers, and raise her armies, so I'd say she is definitely beyond the powerlvl of any final xpac boss we've seen so far except for maybe C'thun and Sargeras / Argus.

And as I said for Vashj'ir, many years have passed since then, that was blizzard's first attempt at an underwater zone, and the dev team is more experienced now, so its plausible to imagine that they'd create a far more satisfying experience this time around.

[Selastan]

A side quest.

'We have reached an stalemate with the [Horde/Alliance], hero. That doesn't mean your can laze around waiting for the opportunity to strike. Both our fleets and theirs have been troubled by the naga, I'd say their queen is at the end of her reign. Go take care of that nuisance, and take whatever treasures you can to aid or real fight.'

[Leyre]

Look at MoP and you can figure how the raid and bosses will play out

[3DTyrant]

I hope her role is to have her head roll, forever, on the floor. So then that way people can just stop banging on about her and how "amazing" she is.

[Redroniksre]

Yeah but the difference is KJ and his master Sargeras are thematically the same - theyre both demons, or something of the like, within that demonic theme of the Burning Legion. Azshara and N'zoth, on the other hand, are entirely different. Azshara is a water-based character, with Naga, Nazjatar, and all of that stuff, while N'zoth is void-based, corruption, and Old God tentacle goodness. And btw going by your logic Deathwing was also just a pawn of N'zoth and he did absolutely nothing of note since WoA yet he got an entire expansion around him, he trashed the whole world ffs.

We have no idea what Azshara has been up to for the past few millennia. Shes had undisturbed time to hone her skills and gather her armies. She's not only important, shes literally THE most important character we've yet left to face from the original WC lore, and the fact that shes barely been physically showing up in game only makes her more mysterious. The fact that you dont find her interesting is your own thing, but to disregard her importance when literally all lore regarding her points otherwise is plain stupid.

Every Old God has their unique servants, Y'shaarj with the Mantid, Yoggy boy with the Nerubians. Naga are the equivalent version for N'zoth, so no not really thematically different, not to mention again, most people don't want an underwater expansion. People love speculating that she has been honing her craft, or that she has been empowered by N'zoth, but none of that has any basis in fact. She was ONCE the most powerful mage, now we have many more come, probably some just as powerful as she once was. Deathwing was different as he was the herald for the Old Gods as a collective, their champion, while Azshara is only the champion of N'zoth. There are a metric ton of characters with more lore than her, hell even Garrosh had more lore than she did and he was also the technical king of the Horde.

[3DTyrant]

Mid tier raid fodder, exactly where she and her boring story belong.

Or this, I'll gladly take this, too.

[Qualia]

Well look, discussions about fictional character power levels are inherently pointless because, as Stan Lee said, the one who wins is the one whom the story wants to win. I mean were literally defetaing Sargeras this expansion, and although its not a classic "death", trapping him forever seems pretty close. But that aside, it was mentioned in one of the stories that when Azshara let the Legion into Azeroth, Mannoroth at one point grew annoyed with her and tried to strike her, only to realise that she was far more powerful than him, quite possibly at the level of his masters (i.e. Archimond and KJ). Since that time she's had 10k years to suck off N'zoth, hone her powers, and raise her armies, so I'd say she is definitely beyond the powerlvl of any final xpac boss we've seen so far except for maybe C'thun and Sargeras / Argus.

And as I said for Vashj'ir, many years have passed since then, that was blizzard's first attempt at an underwater zone, and the dev team is more experienced now, so its plausible to imagine that they'd create a far more satisfying experience this time around.

That's true, but the point isn't what Azshara could be. It's what she is right now as we know it. Otherwise, we might as well argue that every antagonists (from Hogger onwards) can be powerful enough to be more powerful than Garrosh - just have them stumble upon some convenient massive power-ups (Sword of Sargeras' fragment, mysterious Titans' artifacts, the new Azeroth's wounds, etc.) and there we have it. Blizzard might hype her up and give her some empowerment if they want her to be final boss, but I'd say that for now, her level of power - based on what has been shown to us - doesn't guarantee a slot to be final boss, so it isn't that bad to have her to be the final boss of the penultimate tier of the expansion.

And no, that wasn't what Mannoroth thought. He thought that only his masters could have proven to be superior to her, so she wasn't at their levels yet. This was when she still had full access to the original Well of Eternity (one of the most powerful source of power around, the only one provided enough power to summon Sargeras so far). Now the original Well has already exploded, she lost those empowerment, but gained N'Zoth's instead. We don't know how powerful she is right now - she might be more powerful than she was as a NE, but compare to us, there hasn't been anything indicated that she is more powerful than DW or current Illidan, or on the same level as Archimonde / KJ.

One more thing was that Azshara actually doesn't have much of a story about her. Some people might like her because of her depictions in WC3 manual or WoTA, but in fact, she hasn't done much. Not during WoTA, and not now either. During WoTA, all she did was hanging around her palace or going to the summoning site without really do anything significant (well, she fought Malfurion in WC3 Manual, but that is no longer the case in the triology). Now, I don't quite remember, but isn't she only directly mentioned / shown in the story using her illusions in two or three quests (during Cata and Legion) so far? At least N'Zoth has been hinted to be behind a lot of things Old God / Void related on Azeroth from what recently told in Legion / Chronicle. All in all, she isn't depicted to be extremely powerful compared to us (yet), neither does she has an intriguing / interesting story to carry her. I'd say her position on the second tier isn't that bad.

[Stardrift]

Yes criticising the poor quality of lore to game transposition is crying now. I suppose people complaining about WOD were just crying too. Hell, anyone who complains about anything theyve got a vested interest in should be called a crybaby, cos crying is for babies and fighting is for men, right? Or is being silenr for men? You tell me.

They were crying. They only whined and complained about fucking flying, while the real structured criticisms about there being a lack of content was drowned out.

But hey, that's a whole other thing from the lore. Why are you so butthurt? The only issue I see is Blizz left too many mysteries in Warcraft's lore. And the problem with that, is it leaves everyone speculating. And the problem with that is there'll be many that become very attached and passionate about their speculations, as far as to considering their speculations as canon to the story.

So the moment Blizz unveils what those mysteries, twists and what not are, people are left disappointed. Salty, even.

[Exilian]

Every Old God has their unique servants, Y'shaarj with the Mantid, Yoggy boy with the Nerubians. Naga are the equivalent version for N'zoth, so no not really thematically different, not to mention again, most people don't want an underwater expansion. People love speculating that she has been honing her craft, or that she has been empowered by N'zoth, but none of that has any basis in fact. She was ONCE the most powerful mage, now we have many more come, probably some just as powerful as she once was. Deathwing was different as he was the herald for the Old Gods as a collective, their champion, while Azshara is only the champion of N'zoth. There are a metric ton of characters with more lore than her, hell even Garrosh had more lore than she did and he was also the technical king of the Horde.

See thats where youre completely wrong, the Naga cant be compared to the bug races cos the bug races were old god servants since forever, even during the black empire, while the naga were just circumstancially made.

Some people dont want an underwater expac, not most people, but some will always not want a specific expansiom and thats never stopped blizz in the past from making time traveling orcs and a fucking panda xpac...

Theres no basis in fact that an egoistical former queen of the world thats crazy for power would spend her 10k free years looking for power? What a strange sense of facts you have.

And i dont remember DW being a herald of ALL the old gods, in fact i think the old gods dont work together and kinda hate each other.

And yeah there are a number of characters with more lore screen time than her, doesnt make more important or her less of a threat though

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They were crying. They only whined and complained about fucking flying, while the real structured criticisms about there being a lack of content was drowned out.

But hey, that's a whole other thing from the lore. Why are you so butthurt? The only issue I see is Blizz left too many mysteries in Warcraft's lore. And the problem with that, is it leaves everyone speculating. And the problem with that is there'll be many that become very attached and passionate about their speculations, as far as to considering their speculations as canon to the story.

So the moment Blizz unveils what those mysteries, twists and what not are, people are left disappointed. Salty, even.

So the criticism you agreed with was constructive in nature, but the rest of it was whining about flying? And when i criticise how blizz handles their own lore, with specific examples and analogies, its also just crying cos you disagree, right? I dont know who sounds like a child here now.

And if youre implying im somehow making up lore and turning it canon, id suggest you read the books. For instance i never liked sargeras's character cos of the exreme edginess but upon reading the books i accepted his importance and power lvl, the same might happen to you with Azshara if only youd bother to read them instead of getting your lore from mmochamp

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That's true, but the point isn't what Azshara could be. It's what she is right now as we know it. Otherwise, we might as well argue that every antagonists (from Hogger onwards) can be powerful enough to be more powerful than Garrosh - just have them stumble upon some convenient massive power-ups (Sword of Sargeras' fragment, mysterious Titans' artifacts, the new Azeroth's wounds, etc.) and there we have it. Blizzard might hype her up and give her some empowerment if they want her to be final boss, but I'd say that for now, her level of power - based on what has been shown to us - doesn't guarantee a slot to be final boss, so it isn't that bad to have her to be the final boss of the penultimate tier of the expansion.

And no, that wasn't what Mannoroth thought. He thought that only his masters could have proven to be superior to her, so she wasn't at their levels yet. This was when she still had full access to the original Well of Eternity (one of the most powerful source of power around, the only one provided enough power to summon Sargeras so far). Now the original Well has already exploded, she lost those empowerment, but gained N'Zoth's instead. We don't know how powerful she is right now - she might be more powerful than she was as a NE, but compare to us, there hasn't been anything indicated that she is more powerful than DW or current Illidan, or on the same level as Archimonde / KJ.

One more thing was that Azshara actually doesn't have much of a story about her. Some people might like her because of her depictions in WC3 manual or WoTA, but in fact, she hasn't done much. Not during WoTA, and not now either. During WoTA, all she did was hanging around her palace or going to the summoning site without really do anything significant (well, she fought Malfurion in WC3 Manual, but that is no longer the case in the triology). Now, I don't quite remember, but isn't she only directly mentioned / shown in the story using her illusions in two or three quests (during Cata and Legion) so far? At least N'Zoth has been hinted to be behind a lot of things Old God / Void related on Azeroth from what recently told in Legion / Chronicle. All in all, she isn't depicted to be extremely powerful compared to us (yet), neither does she has an intriguing / interesting story to carry her. I'd say her position on the second tier isn't that bad.

Just because she hasnt done anything major since wota doesnt make any less important, otherwise DW wouldve been irrelevant but we all saw what he could do.

I dont have the book in front of my but im pretty sure mannoroth at least implied she was up there with KJ and archi, maybe not 100% but definitely not like 10% of their power. And yeah we can speculate about any character, but for some it makes more sense than others. For instance its stupid to talk about what Hogger did but its quite rational to ask what Bolvar, Azshara, and Wrathion have been up to, and giving any one of those characters 10k years and an old god patron cant be good.

[Qualia]

Just because she hasnt done anything major since wota doesnt make any less important, otherwise DW wouldve been irrelevant but we all saw what he could do.

I dont have the book in front of my but im pretty sure mannoroth at least implied she was up there with KJ and archi, maybe not 100% but definitely not like 10% of their power. And yeah we can speculate about any character, but for some it makes more sense than others. For instance its stupid to talk about what Hogger did but its quite rational to ask what Bolvar, Azshara, and Wrathion have been up to, and giving any one of those characters 10k years and an old god patron cant be good.

Deathwing did a lot of major things since WoTA, thogh. In WoTA, he was one of the major player in the triology. After that, we have a bunch of events in WC2 and at least 3 books released during WoW & before Cataclysm - that helped to refresh people's memory of him - in which he, his plans, or both played important roles as well: "Day of the Dragons", "Beyond the Dark Portal" and "Night of the Dragons". There are also "Twilight of the Aspects" and the short story "Charge of the Aspects", but I won't count them because they are released after Cataclysm (depicted events before or during Cataclysm, however). As Krasus put it: "Krasus had made the former Aspect an extensive part of his long, vigilant watch, Deathwing having played a role in many plots over the millennia". Azshara, on the other hand, didn't do much in the Triology and has been absent until Cataclysm - in which she showed herself briefly in 2 quest chains, and then missing again until Legion (in which she only showed herself a bit on Azsuna as well).

Mannoroth said only his masters would prove superior to Azshara, not that she was up there with them (quoting the exact line from the book: "Rather, Mannoroth discovered that here was a force against which only his lord and Archimonde would prove superior"). Again, this is when she was still having full access to the original Well of Eternity - one of the most powerful source of power we've ever know of. That source of power is destroyed now, so she would have to look for other empowerment instead. We have no clue how powerful she is now - sure, Blizzard probably would make sure she is challenging enough, but there hasn't been any indication that she is anywhere as powerful as Deathwing, much less Archimonde or KJ, maybe not even Illidan as he is at the moment. Until it is mentioned or implied, claiming that Azshara is powerful as them is merely speculations at best.

It's true that we are free to speculate about characters, but those are just speculations. They aren't and might not ever be canon, especially when nothing really supports those speculations yet. Thus, I don't think those "I think she might have done this", "I guess that she might have been this awesomely powerful" (especially when they aren't supplied by anything shown so far) would be good basis to argue that she should have been a more important boss. Could she serve as a final boss of the expansion if Blizzard gives her more development? Sure. Is her current amount of character development enough to guarantee that spot? No.

[Exilian]

Deathwing did a lot of major things since WoTA, thogh. In WoTA, he was one of the major player in the triology. After that, we have a bunch of events in WC2 and at least 3 books released during WoW & before Cataclysm - that helped to refresh people's memory of him - in which he, his plans, or both played important roles as well: "Day of the Dragons", "Beyond the Dark Portal" and "Night of the Dragons". There are also "Twilight of the Aspects" and the short story "Charge of the Aspects", but I won't count them because they are released after Cataclysm (depicted events before or during Cataclysm, however). As Krasus put it: "Krasus had made the former Aspect an extensive part of his long, vigilant watch, Deathwing having played a role in many plots over the millennia". Azshara, on the other hand, didn't do much in the Triology and has been absent until Cataclysm - in which she showed herself briefly in 2 quest chains, and then missing again until Legion (in which she only showed herself a bit on Azsuna as well).

Mannoroth said only his masters would prove superior to Azshara, not that she was up there with them (quoting the exact line from the book: "Rather, Mannoroth discovered that here was a force against which only his lord and Archimonde would prove superior"). Again, this is when she was still having full access to the original Well of Eternity - one of the most powerful source of power we've ever know of. That source of power is destroyed now, so she would have to look for other empowerment instead. We have no clue how powerful she is now - sure, Blizzard probably would make sure she is challenging enough, but there hasn't been any indication that she is anywhere as powerful as Deathwing, much less Archimonde or KJ, maybe not even Illidan as he is at the moment. Until it is mentioned or implied, claiming that Azshara is powerful as them is merely speculations at best.

It's true that we are free to speculate about characters, but those are just speculations. They aren't and might not ever be canon, especially when nothing really supports those speculations yet. Thus, I don't think those "I think she might have done this", "I guess that she might have been this awesomely powerful" (especially when they aren't supplied by anything shown so far) would be good basis to argue that she should have been a more important boss. Could she serve as a final boss of the expansion if Blizzard gives her more development? Sure. Is her current amount of character development enough to guarantee that spot? No.

What you dont seem to understand is that although Azshara hasnt been mentioned OFTEN (as in there havent been many stories / events including her) the stuff she did do (like rule the Night Elves, summon Sargeras, and effectively cause the sundering) makes her very relevant. On top of that, from a gameplay perspective, shes queen of the Naga - a unique subaquatic race that we have barely seen featured in the story as central antagonists, yet which have so much potential. Different bioms, different colour palettes, different stories. That connectiom alone makes Azshara and her armies worthy of an expansion, even ignoring her previous position in the lore.

Thats why im saying blizzard SHOULD give this theme room to breathe with a separate expansion, not just a midtier patch, cos i feel doing the latter would feel like cramming an elephant into a fridge.

[Telogrus]

I think the Blood God will start off the expansion, and then 8.1 will lead us into more Old God stuff. The overarching story will be (I think) that while we're fighting each other the Old God is gaining ground following Legion. I think with Azshara likely in 8.1, or the second tier, she will bring in the Old God threat for the final tier.

Fixed that for you.

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Well, Ion basically confirmed Azshara is in 2nd raid after G’huun.

Is Uldir the entry level raid like Emerald Nightmare or is it the 1st tier raid like Nighthold?

[Kyux]

Fixed that for you.

What are you talking about? Do you think there is only one Old God?