Mobile Tranq on the chopping block

[Tiberria]

I know this isn't necessarily everyone's experience, but it has been for me. Mobile Tranq has caused me to be less aware of the fights for that same reason. Why bother anticipating anything when I can just Tranq? I prefer the old way. I made me, and my raid team, better players.

Which is fine as an approach - if every other healer also has an 8 second immobile channel or something similar on their raid CD. That's not the case, and that won't be the case, therefore, it absolutely is not fine. The change has to be looked at in terms of the overall state of healers, not in isolation of what you like about one spec. If Druids can no longer save the group during those mechanics where you want to use a raid CD while mobile, but stuff like HTT continues to be able to, you know what's going to happen? You will just not want to bring a Resto Druid to that content period. If you consider a fight like Blackhand, the spec is 100% trash without being able to get a Fox for Tranq, because there just wasn't a good place to be able to use Tranq pre-P3 without moving during the 8 seconds (and even in P3 it could be dicey).

[Deleted]

people thinking tranqing should require some kind of skill when equal or even better cooldowns in game does not have much of a depth in them either and you just press them whenever you see your name in the raidnote and thats it lol. it's obviously not a concept in this game. them sh*tting on hymn the entire time is also not an argument, like hymn obviously isnt a good cd. sorry it's not the druids fault.
healer balance is joke and the fact that they have the nerv to say all this once again proves the devs are completely clueless. Apparently balance is pala/shaman/possibly priest being raiding gods while moblie tranq, which isnt even better than any cd these classes have, needs to be nerfed... you know because it's imbalanced for druid not be significantly worse than these classes. they fucked up everything about druid going into tos, by now all the specs that are musthave to high end raiding because of their unique utilities and cds even outperform druid in healing, like you cant even have that now. but healers are balanced because the better utility specs only heal 10% more. also cds are fine. also pls l2p with non mobile tank while shaman/pala just press and instant cast and move on. it's balance.
god I thoughi celestalon was garbage but ion is wasting no time coming for that title

[lewdest]

Woah, you mean the poor druidbabies will actually have to stand still for something for once in their life? Add some cast times to their hots or something, so annoying to see these mongos hopping around spamming instants all day.

[Restors]

WTF That means I cannot do a perfect quadruple Salchow while doing TRANQ around the resto shaman and holy priest to mock them?

meh shamans just drop their big D totem for huge healing

[fallenangel-succ]

Comparing a single ability between classes (raid CD, in this case) is an exercise in futility at best and purposely misguiding at worst.
We have under normal rotation 1 GCD out of 8 that needs hardcasting. No other spec comes close, and listing spells like that's what's important is, well, the same as I wrote in the first line. I'm sure paladins love their non-beacon heal where their entire class and set bonuses revolve around that.

[Birche]

It's a nonsensical decision that is taking class design concepts totally out of reality with the actual mechanics of how healing and the game plays out.

There's a reason why on 3 different occasions, they have added the ability to Tranq while moving (Symbiosis, then Aspect of the Fox, then the Legion artifact trait) - because fundamentally, it's actually required when Barrier, Sac Aura, HTT, Revival and SLT are all instant casts.

Holy priests and our setup-is-required-Divine Hymn would like to have a word with you =)

[Tiberria]

Comparing a single ability between classes (raid CD, in this case) is an exercise in futility at best and purposely misguiding at worst.
We have under normal rotation 1 GCD out of 8 that needs hardcasting. No other spec comes close, and listing spells like that's what's important is, well, the same as I wrote in the first line. I'm sure paladins love their non-beacon heal where their entire class and set bonuses revolve around that.

It's totally reasonable to compare the abilities if you're talking about something as important and generally standardized as raid CDs. The bottom line is raid CDs (and an effective raid CD rotation) has a high degree of importance, one that they have said they are "happy with". If your spec has a bad/weak raid CD, or if your raid CD can not be used when your RL wants/needs it to be used because it has to be channeled, the entire spec is bad and undesirable - period, end of discussion.

Stop trying to justify this by spell counts, etc. Being able to make effective use of a raid CD is a basic minimum to being worthwhile as a healer, and it's not something that should be subject to mongoloid class fantasy bull shit. Also, the niche of a Resto Druid is mobility in the same way the niche of a Shaman is tank healing and the niche of a Paladin is stacked healing. It's idiotic to have a raid CD that not only goes against the niche of the class, but also (in cases where it's just not really usable due to the restriction) could completely undercut the niche and make the spec trash on a fight where a lot of mobility is required.

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Holy priests and our setup-is-required-Divine Hymn would like to have a word with you =)

If you read further, several of us noted that the Holy Priest example is irrelevant, because the Holy Priest spec has been (and probably will remain) irrelevant outside of a few specific cases since about WoTLK - in many ways due to design stupidity just like this.

[Deleted]

tranq could get outright removed this very moment and resto druid would still be a basically mandatory spec going into antorus (unless MW are actually good, lol)

same applies to healing tide and sac btw

[cparle87]

Cata and MoP - Symbiosis a Shaman for Spiritwalker's Grace, macro it to Tranq and you have moving Tranq
First half of WoD - Hunters had Aspect of the Fox, and on any fight like Blackhand where stationary Tranq was a real problem, you could just have them use it in line with Tranq/Hymn.
HFC - Only time we didn't have it.
Legion - Artifact trait

So, basically, we have had this capability for the last 9 years with the exception of one raid tier. Don't act like it's some newfangled Legion thing that warrants being removed.

I gotta clarify you on two things there. Symbiosis was only around during MoP. And hunters had Aspect of the Fox in Cata. So in Cata we had fox, in MoP we had fox and symbiosis, WoD we lost symbiosis and like you said we couldn't do at all in HFC, then got artifact trait.

[Maleific]

I gotta clarify you on two things there. Symbiosis was only around during MoP. And hunters had Aspect of the Fox in Cata. So in Cata we had fox, in MoP we had fox and symbiosis, WoD we lost symbiosis and like you said we couldn't do at all in HFC, then got artifact trait.

Aspect of the fox in cata was only for the hunter's shots, not a raid cd.

[SupBrah]

I mean they gotta do something... Resto Druid is a complete OP faceroll compared to other healers

[Smellyflute]

If they nerf it, I'll live, but I will miss it. Coordinating when to be able to sit through an 8 second cast without moving is going to impact several encounters, but ultimately it will make me a stronger player. Like for sisters that's so unimportant, unless you're tranqing on the eclipse with the big glaives, but for Avatar? bleh, no tranq for phase 1 unbound chaos.

[Mazzeric]

So what you're saying is you want your spec to have zero weaknesses in a progression setting. How will Druids ever overcome this burden of needing to channel a spell every 3 minutes? Serious guilds may need to plan their big healing cooldowns based around what's happening during a fight. Spooky.

Let's also talk about the strength of Paladin and Shaman cooldowns compared to Tranquility and pretend we're not at all talking about healer parity, because by the way Holy Priest's cooldown doesn't matter in this discussion because they don't exist in progression raids.

What are you expecting out of this thread? If you listen to the handful of interviews with Sigma (the class designer, not Ion, he's the game director guys), his position on this actually makes a lot of sense. Whether or not they deliver on what he's saying remains to be seen, but he did say they are taking a serious look at balancing healer utility packages.

[cparle87]

Aspect of the fox in cata was only for the hunter's shots, not a raid cd.

Ah, ok. I looked it up on wowpedia and saw the "added in 4.0" part, but not the "redesigned" part for 5.0.

[Deleted]

Call [...] spellwarding from the master class if you can't safely tranq in BfA

Are you calling Prot Pallies the master class or am I missing something?

[Tiberria]

So what you're saying is you want your spec to have zero weaknesses in a progression setting. How will Druids ever overcome this burden of needing to channel a spell every 3 minutes? Serious guilds may need to plan their big healing cooldowns based around what's happening during a fight. Spooky.

The spec already has plenty of weaknesses in a progression setting - specifically lack of single target burst, lack of triage healing or capability of responding quickly to unpredictable burst damage on specific players (because of how HoTs are relative to direct heals) and being more mana limited than a lot of healing specs. I am contending that it doesn't need additional weaknesses arbitrarily tacked on - especially if specs like HPally and RShaman are not getting additional weaknesses saddled to them.

And, let's not be ridiculous. If Druids on live have zero weaknesses as you contend, why are they the second least taken healing class on Mythic? A spec with 0 weaknesses would be stacked wouldn't it? The answer is the spec just isn't all that good right now, and this will make it worse. Also, the way that serious guilds will react to fights not allowing Tranq and DHymn to be used when the RL needs raid CDs to be used will be to exclude those two specs from progression comps if they have the option to do so. Get real.

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I mean they gotta do something... Resto Druid is a complete OP faceroll compared to other healers

The actual numbers make your statement laughably idiotic.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#metric=hps
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

So OP.

[Deleted]

The spec already has plenty of weaknesses in a progression setting - specifically lack of single target burst, lack of triage healing or capability of responding quickly to unpredictable burst damage on specific players (because of how HoTs are relative to direct heals) and being more mana limited than a lot of healing specs. I am contending that it doesn't need additional weaknesses arbitrarily tacked on - especially if specs like HPally and RShaman are not getting additional weaknesses saddled to them.

And, let's not be ridiculous. If Druids on live have zero weaknesses as you contend, why are they the second least taken healing class on Mythic? A spec with 0 weaknesses would be stacked wouldn't it? The answer is the spec just isn't all that good right now, and this will make it worse. Also, the way that serious guilds will react to fights not allowing Tranq and DHymn to be used when the RL needs raid CDs to be used will be to exclude those two specs from progression comps if they have the option to do so. Get real.

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The actual numbers make your statement laughably idiotic.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#metric=hps
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=hps×pan=1000

So OP.

I applaud you for still trying this thread but it's hopeless. im not sure what these guys are playing (got a few guesses) but they looked at skada once in nh and now they blindly hate druid (even though utility always put them ahead but whatever) and just ignore EVERY objective fact pointing towards druid just being weak. healing is lower, utility is lower, definitely not a musthave spec lol, like these comments are just nonsense and not even close to being true or a valid argument.
the best healer setup going into antorus stars with a hpally and a shaman, possibly want a disc if you can. that's it. the remaining slot(s) is a tossup between druid and mw.

also i dont know about your raids but aspect in wod was a dps cd pretty much. if the two coincided yeah got yourself a mobile tranq once in a while.

also holy priest is not a different class from disc. very likely one is gonna be better than the other anyway. sorry priest doesnt have both its healing specs on a raid op level taking 2 spots from the usual 4. holy being behind is nothing like mw or druid.

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What are you expecting out of this thread? If you listen to the handful of interviews with Sigma (the class designer, not Ion, he's the game director guys), his position on this actually makes a lot of sense. Whether or not they deliver on what he's saying remains to be seen, but he did say they are taking a serious look at balancing healer utility packages.

nothing is expected from this thread. it's a discussion. but its mmo champion formus so it's very low quality.
I mean are they happy with the raid cds or not then?

[Mazzeric]

And, let's not be ridiculous. If Druids on live have zero weaknesses as you contend, why are they the second least taken healing class on Mythic? A spec with 0 weaknesses would be stacked wouldn't it? The answer is the spec just isn't all that good right now, and this will make it worse. Also, the way that serious guilds will react to fights not allowing Tranq and DHymn to be used when the RL needs raid CDs to be used will be to exclude those two specs from progression comps if they have the option to do so. Get real.

Okay, it was the second least healing class taken to Mythic when you include lesser, "average" mythic guilds that take Holy Priests and Mistweavers, the irrelevant specs that we're not supposed to care about in this thread because they're not progression-viable, since of course Blizzard's class designers only design with viable specs in mind when taking their raid cooldowns into consideration. What a joke.

When you look at every "relevant" guild aka the top world 100 kills (because that's the world we live in, in this thread apparently) they all took Resto Druids because it's a good progression spec with stellar output at low player health (deep rooted + cultivation) that never dies to mechanics. As with literally every other raid tier where we've had access to public logs, Druids look considerably worse in nerfed/farm content because a good majority of guilds don't drop healers for the snipefest of farm content, but we're still linking their logs apparently to try and prove a point. Current numbers don't say anything about how the spec performed when the content was actually in its most difficult state. The best four specs in Tomb were Hpal/Rsham/Disc/Rdruid even if current numbers don't tell that story.

Look, I think most mythic healers can agree that the current healer cooldown paradigm is fucking awful right now, but to infer that your spec is doomed in an expansion you haven't even played yet, whose class mechanics haven't even been fully fleshed out nor revealed to the public, is utterly bogus. It's just typical "sky is falling" MMO-champ hyperbolic banter. What we do know we can go by is what they have said about balancing healer utility packages with healer output, so we just have to hope that they will finally deliver on that design even if they have failed to do so in the past.

[Tiberria]

When you look at every "relevant" guild aka the top world 100 kills (because that's the world we live in, in this thread apparently) they all took Resto Druids because it's a good progression spec with stellar output at low player health (deep rooted + cultivation) that never dies to mechanics. As with literally every other raid tier where we've had access to public logs, Druids look considerably worse in nerfed/farm content because a good majority of guilds don't drop healers for the snipefest of farm content, but we're still linking their logs apparently to try and prove a point. Current numbers don't say anything about how the spec performed when the content was actually in its most difficult state. The best four specs in Tomb were Hpal/Rsham/Disc/Rdruid even if current numbers don't tell that story.

1. Deep Rooted is an artifact ability and 100% irrelevant, since it's gone in BfA. Why are you bringing it up, except to obfuscate? And, it's not like there's another healing spec that has a mastery that makes their entire healing scale with health levels.

2. Your notion that RDruid output massively declines/looks way worse on farm is more bullshit that is entirely debunked if you actually look at the numbers. ToS was the only tier where there was a significant drop in RDruid output relative to that of other classes as the tier went along, which is 100% in line with the theory that it has everything to do with the T19 situation and people carrying lower ilvls and/or switching to T20 to use higher ilvls and seeing a big throughput drop.

ToS (post 7.3) - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ps&timespan=60
ToS (pre 7.3) - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...an=60&region=1
Nighthold (pre 7.2) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=1000&region=1
Nigthold (post 7.2) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000
EN - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

Notice how flat the relative throughput line is throughout Nighthold, or even how relatively flat the line is in pre-7.3 ToS after the first few weeks? That clearly shows that the theory that Druid throughput being garbage is fine because it always falls way off as content goes on farm is entirely false. It's only something that's really been shown in 7.3, because the spec is improperly tuned and needs to be buffed to compensate for the T19 change, etc.

[RobertMugabe]

Resto druids really just need a bit better burst healing, but that's it. Oh and Lifebloom feels kinda akward nowadays tbh.

All in all this isn't gonna be a big change tbh. We're way to OP on the movement side of things anyways