Making room for the Necromancer class

[Feida]

Witch Doctors as the newest addition? The earliest we're getting a new class is 9.0. Why would 9.0s class be based on 8.0 aesthetics? That's like adding Demon Hunters in WotLK.

Also, you're going to have a hard time creating a witch doctor that is thematically similar to witches in Drustvar, while staying true to the origins of the class. It's a thematic nightmare.

Why introduce all of these Allied Races the expansion after we've dealt with them? Relatively unrelated support to my argument here I know, but the idea of a Witch Doctor being introduced AFTER we've explored what they have to offer isn't unbelievable.

Current/Past/Future aesthetics aside, Witch Doctors sound much better on paper than Necromancers. They both portray relatively similar themes, but Witch Doctors offer qualities that we mostly haven't seen before. Necromancers confliction with Death Knights are far greater than Witch Doctor's conflictions with Warlocks.

[Wildberry]

Why introduce all of these Allied Races the expansion after we've dealt with them? Relatively unrelated support to my argument here I know, but the idea of a Witch Doctor being introduced AFTER we've explored what they have to offer isn't unbelievable.

There isn't precedent for unrelated classes, there is for races. Worgen, for example, were entirely irrelevant to the main plot of Cataclysm, yet they were written in. Conversely, every class thus far has been relevant to the expansion they've been introduced in.

Current/Past/Future aesthetics aside, Witch Doctors sound much better on paper than Necromancers. They both portray relatively similar themes, but Witch Doctors offer qualities that we mostly haven't seen before. Necromancers confliction with Death Knights are far greater than Witch Doctor's conflictions with Warlocks.

Witch Doctors have a fairly narrow theme and the ridiculous idea regarding a Necromancer overlap gets debunked in every single Necromancer thread.

[Thimagryn]

Witch Doctors have a fairly narrow theme and the ridiculous idea regarding a Necromancer overlap gets debunked in every single Necromancer thread.

Troll culture is vast and can make up for any narrow themes. We've seen enough variety in all the Troll zones and raids to show what could be possible. The Spirit Gods and Loas have plenty of potential in a Witchdoctor/Shadow Hunter class.

In context, I'm not suggesting it as a Necro replacement or alternative. Witchdoctors are their own thing.

[The One Percent]

Necromancer would be the most boring class addition they could possibly choose.

[Tyrathius]

If you need to destroy two other specs to make room for your new class, that's a pretty good sign your new class is completely unnecessary and should not be added.

[Halyon]

Because, if you had bothered to read the thread at all instead of just coming to the thread to knee-jerk and spout some uninformed opinion of yours, you'd have seen that there are actually numerous elements, themes and mechanics completely unused by either Warlocks or Death Knights.

Didn't have time.

Again, read the thread.
tl;dr: No and stop.

Again, didn't have time.

Must be why Warlocks are playable, right? Never mind Death Knights and Demon Hunters.

That, actually, is exactly what I mean when I say bad argument. That might actually be the worst anti-Necromancer argument I have ever seen.

Warlocks enslave (or 'request assistance') demons. Death knights aren't exactly boy scouts. They've been doing some pretty evil shit lately. Necromancers are worse. Either way, you keep saying I should educate myself. Your attitude isn't helping me do that, it's doing the opposite, so kindly can it if it's a discussion you want to have...

I have nothing against evil classes as such, but DK's as they are now are already pushing that envelope, and as I said, Necromnacers are worse, they're fucked in the head. DK's are a product of it, so's Thaddius. Demon Hunters don't enslave living souls from humans, they bind demons. Demons are for the most part pretty squarely on the evil side of alignments, so not really a big deal. DK's raise corpses with rudimentary/'dog'-stage brain capacity. Necromancers do the same AND fuck up the souls of whatever they can get their hands on in the worst possible ways.

"But we can leave that out of playable ones" yes, and that leaves you with a glorified caster DK...a 4th spec. A spec that would play pretty similarly to a BM hunter zoo build, or demonologist warlock. For the flavor, you could go with it, sure, but to get the most out of a class without just gutting it down to something different. Thus I vote for necromancer to not be a playable class. It could be a class onto itself, but if that were to happen, they'd need their own faction to play under, seperate from the horde and alliance, just because they're that fucked up, if you want to use all of their tools and make it a 'true' necromancer class.

Witch-doctors would be a lot more acceptable. At least they can better hide their morally questionable business...which is still not as fucked as necros.

Some things aren't suited as player-available. Necromancers are one of those in this instance, in my opinion.

Example that I remember; White Wolf has an rpg with Werewolves (don't remember the incarnation atm), and there's a faction of werewolf (and class) called Black Spiral Dancers. It has all the trappings of a class, but players aren't allowed to play it, because they do all the fucked up things. Torture, rape, horrible rituals. Not doing those things makes you not a BSD. Same for the Necromancer.

[Deleted]

I would rather have a new class than taking away from Unholy Death Knights to make the Necromancer class possible. They already butchered Demonology so that Demon Hunters could be a thing.

[Wildberry]

Didn't have time.
Again, didn't have time.

Why even bother posting at that point, then?

Warlocks enslave (or 'request assistance') demons

Regarding Warlocks specifically, there's a reason class trainers were tucked away in the cellars of Inns and the like. They're not popular and they don't have a good reputation. We've seen numerous instances of Demon Binding failing (Fizzlebang is the notable one), drawing ire upon Warlocks as a whole. The original incarnation of Warlocks could perform sacrifices to summon Demons, etc. Not to mention the class's tendency to, in your words, "fuck up the souls of whatever they can get their hands on in the worst possible ways" to summon more demons, or empower Fel Magic.

Death knights aren't exactly boy scouts. They've been doing some pretty evil shit lately. Necromancers are worse.

In what way are Necromancers worse? (Things that Warlocks do with seemingly no problems is not an answer.)

DK's raise corpses with rudimentary/'dog'-stage brain capacity. Necromancers do the same AND fuck up the souls of whatever they can get their hands on in the worst possible ways.

Does the intelligence of what they're raising have any impact on the morality, or perceived morality of the action? Is there something better or more moral about raising something that's barely sentient? The soul nonsense is already debunked.

Demon Hunters don't enslave living souls from humans, they bind demons. Demons are for the most part pretty squarely on the evil side of alignments, so not really a big deal.

Demon Hunters are also canonically shunned from their communities due to their practices. I love how you're so dishonest as to leave it at "Demon Binding" completely ignoring the bit where they bind demons within themselves, igniting a struggle between them and the bound Demon. Let's ignore the brutality and borderline-torture required for Demon Hunter initiation, or the mortality rates. No, that's "not really a big deal."

"But we can leave that out of playable ones" yes, and that leaves you with a glorified caster DK...a 4th spec. A spec that would play pretty similarly to a BM hunter zoo build, or demonologist warlock.

Firstly, we don't have to do this. There's plenty of precedent for canonical Necromancers to exist within the Horde and Alliance. Secondly, the idea that there's a mechanical overlap between Necromancers and BM Hunters/Demo locks is extraordinarily stupid. New thematic and mechanical elements get pitched in every. single. Necromancer. Thread. Every one. I'm not spoon feeding you that portion, considering it's already in this thread. the tl;dr of it is as follows:
-3+ potential specs all rooted in existing canon (Soul-based DPS, focusing on sacrificing minions for self-empowerment, Bone-based DPS, focused on sacrificing minions for stronger minions or direct-damage spells, Apothecary-based DPS focusing on blights, slimes, plague cauldrons etc. Other ideas include healing, tanking etc.)
-Minion sacrifice, rather than empowerment changes the class up mechanically from existing pet classes
-We have multiple stealth classes that utilize bleeds. Multiple "agile dual wielding melee" classes. Multiple "Direct-damage spellcasters" etc. Necromancer can hypothetically have far less overlap than already exists with other classes.

Thus I vote for necromancer to not be a playable class. It could be a class onto itself, but if that were to happen, they'd need their own faction to play under, seperate from the horde and alliance, just because they're that fucked up, if you want to use all of their tools and make it a 'true' necromancer class.

Again, false, no, stop. There are already two Necromancers in the current Horde, Gunther Arcanus and Helcular.

Witch-doctors would be a lot more acceptable. At least they can better hide their morally questionable business...which is still not as fucked as necros

Necromancers are far more universal than Witch Doctors, which would have a hard time finding practitioners among the Alliance.

Some things aren't suited as player-available. Necromancers are one of those in this instance, in my opinion.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact.
-Necromancers already exist within the Horde
-Warlocks do similar things to souls as Necromancers do
-Warlorcks draw power from commonly reviled sources
-Death Knights already raise the dead

To pretend, as you are, that Necromancers are somehow just so much worse than Warlocks, isn't rooted in anything remotely close to reality. Would Necromancers be viewed with suspicion? Sure, so are Warlocks, Death Knights, the Royal Apothecary Society and Sylvanas' inner-circle. Is there anything Necromancers do that isn't already being done among at least one playable faction, be it by a PC class or canonical NPC? No. Do Necromancers have to have a positive reputation to be playable? Considering Garrosh persecuted, then burned Orgrimmar's Warlocks, no.

Example that I remember; White Wolf has an rpg with Werewolves (don't remember the incarnation atm), and there's a faction of werewolf (and class) called Black Spiral Dancers. It has all the trappings of a class, but players aren't allowed to play it, because they do all the fucked up things. Torture, rape, horrible rituals. Not doing those things makes you not a BSD. Same for the Necromancer.

Perhaps you should spend less time trying to force parallels with other franchises, and spend more time familiarizing yourself with Warcraft?

[Halyon]

snip

Ok, no. Demons are not human beings with human souls. Demon Hunters don't kill scores of people to twist their flesh into abominations, and bind their souls in everlasting torment. A la Thaddius. Nor does Warlocks. Demons ARE NOT humans. Demons are over-all an evil, non-human race, binding them is not the same. No, that doesn't just make it all fine and dandy, but in these classes, it's the Demon Hunter/Warlock, and the demon/s. That's it.

Necromancers thrive on violating and bending the life-force/souls and flesh of other living creatures, many of them other humans, to their will, with 0 regard for morals. DH/Warlocks can at least have a small claim on that. DH just want to eradicate the legion, warlocks use a tool to an end. A very questionable one. At least some of the warlocks negotiate with demons who willingly get on the contract.

It's not questionable with a necromancer. Unless you want said necromancer to ask every single sould if it wants to be enslaved and by this crazy nutcase who looks like a corpse and smells equally funky. Which faction, ASIDE FROM FORSAKEN, would ever in their right mind let a faction of necromancers parade around anywhere, and additionally, and most likely, make use of their dead for this...or on the flip-side, cripple them with not providing for their craft.

DK's are already pushing the envelope, Necromancers is a swan-dive off the steep cliff over there.

[Feida]

@Wildberry

While I agree Necromancers can be unique enough to warrant its own class, I find it would be awkward to introduce them to the game at this stage. Not to mention, thematically they are obviously very much in line with Warlocks and Death Knights, as was stated. Sure, we can think of ways to make it work in practice, but in order for this to happen it needs to actually make its way into the game.

If it was a matter of Necromancer vs Witch Doctors, the devs would probably choose the latter. Relatively the same style of class, but offers an aspect that we haven't touched on at all. Not to mention, as I've already stated, we've only begun exploring Witch Doctor territory come BfA.

[Wildberry]

I've been tied up for a bit, so the responses are a little late; however, I wanted to give an appropriate, and in-depth response, rather than just quick refutations.

Ok, no. Demons are not human beings with human souls. Demon Hunters don't kill scores of people to twist their flesh into abominations, and bind their souls in everlasting torment.

I've never claimed that Demon Hunters kill scores of people to twist their flesh into abominations and bind their souls to everlasting torment. (Death Knights do that, though).

I only brought up Demon Hunters to show that a class which is reviled by society can easily become playable.

My kind has always been hated for what we do... despised outcasts, accused of corruption beyond redemption.

--Feronas Sindweller "A Destiny of Flame and Sorrow"

Hell, even after Sindweller saves Felwood from demonic corruption and Legion infiltrators, the Night Elves simply remove the bounty from his head, yet make no effort to revoke his exile ("Navarax's Gambit").

Kaldorei society has no love for Demon Hunters. They're ready to kill them based on the smallest bit of evidence ("Wanted: The Demon Hunter"), and yet Demon Hunters are playable.

The stigma surrounding Demon Hunters, for the record, comes from the fact that they're binding Demons within themselves. They're viewed as corrupt, power hungry, and likely to give into madness or defect to the Burning Legion.

Nor does Warlocks. Demons ARE NOT humans. Demons are over-all an evil, non-human race, binding them is not the same. No, that doesn't just make it all fine and dandy, but in these classes, it's the Demon Hunter/Warlock, and the demon/s. That's it.

Warlocks bind Demons, but their soul-based attacks aren't limited to Demons. Soul shards, which in your words, "bind souls in everlasting torment," can be gathered from anything. To pretend it's just Demons is extraordinarily dishonest. Furthermore, Blizzard has stated that Fel Energy consumes souls (source), and guess what Warlocks use constantly?

Necromancers thrive on violating and bending the life-force/souls and flesh of other living creatures, many of them other humans, to their will, with 0 regard for morals.

Warlocks bend the life-force and souls of other living creatures (again, not just limited to Demons) to their will. They're not reanimating things, they're simply fueling demonic magic, and converting souls into reagents to summon more Demons. Are you going to pretend that Warlocks really care about morals?

warlocks use a tool to an end.

How does the argument work for Warlocks, but not work for Necromancers?

It's not questionable with a necromancer. Unless you want said necromancer to ask every single sould if it wants to be enslaved and by this crazy nutcase who looks like a corpse and smells equally funky.

Do warlocks ask every time they use drain soul? Do Death Knights ask every time they raise the dead? Hell, Korgaz Deadaxe suggests the Ebon Blade is raising scores of fallen Horde and Alliance. Do you think they're asking all of them?

Which faction, ASIDE FROM FORSAKEN, would ever in their right mind let a faction of necromancers parade around anywhere

Why draw up an arbitrary distinction around Forsaken. They're playable, are they not? Furthermore, we've seen that Night Elves typically don't tolerate Demon Hunters, yet they're a class. Garrosh persecuted, then executed the Warlocks of Orgrimmar, they're also a class.

additionally, and most likely, make use of their dead for this...or on the flip-side, cripple them with not providing for their craft.

Horde/Alliance Dead are already being used by the Ebon Blade. But hey, since you want to pretend that all of the bad things Warlocks do is targeted only at Demons, can't we simply say the same for Necromancers? Perhaps they're raising the dead and twisting the souls of the enemies of the Horde and Alliance? Regardless, it doesn't matter too much, considering this is already canonically happening.

Most of what you're complaining about is already done by other classes, or tolerated by playable factions from allied NPC factions. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely zero legitimacy to the "They're too evil" argument.

While I agree Necromancers can be unique enough to warrant its own class, I find it would be awkward to introduce them to the game at this stage.

I don't necessarily think it would be awkward to introduce them to the game at this point. It's not like we're done with the undead forever, right? That strikes me as being similar to saying that once BC was over it was too late for Demon Hunters.

Yes, Arthas is dead. The Lich King is still alive, and currently exerting influence over the Ebon Blade and antagonizing neutral factions. We've seen from the Paladin Class Hall mount quest that Necromancers are still somewhat active in the Plaguelands. We know Kel'Thuzad hasn't been killed yet. And on top of everything, we now have two factions within the Forsaken that seem to be at odds with one another.
I think it's a stretch to say we won't see another undead-focused expansion.

Not to mention, thematically they are obviously very much in line with Warlocks and Death Knights, as was stated. Sure, we can think of ways to make it work in practice, but in order for this to happen it needs to actually make its way into the game

Well of course it would have to make its way into the game first, that's blatantly obvious. With regard to thematics though, I disagree. Unless we're focusing on things that are extraordinarily superficial "raises the dead," "dark caster," etc. there's plenty of room for thematic distinctions. I mean, applying such surface-level themes to existing classes yields quite a bit of overlap. How many "Light wielders" do we have? "Nature casters?" "Agile, dual-wielding melee?" etc.

If it was a matter of Necromancer vs Witch Doctors, the devs would probably choose the latter.

Necromancer is confirmed as having been pitched twice. We've never seen any indication of a specific, tangible interest in Witch Doctors on the part of Blizzard. Regardless, speculating on what the devs are likely to do is fruitless and really doesn't have any bearing on what should come next.

Relatively the same style of class, but offers an aspect that we haven't touched on at all. Not to mention, as I've already stated, we've only begun exploring Witch Doctor territory come BfA

Necromancer, I'd argue, has a bit more mechanical flexibility than Witch Doctors do. Beyond that, Necromancers are better because they're universal.

We've seen Blood Elves, Orcs, Humans, Gnomes, so on and so forth acting in some capacity as Necromancers. Hell, we've even seen Draenei acting in such a role. How does a class, which is pretty strongly tied to Troll cultural and racial identity, really go beyond just Trolls. Is there a primitive race likely to pick up the practice amongst the Alliance?

Thematically Necromancers are universal and broad. Witch Doctors are fairly narrow. Given that Witch Doctors in BfA will likely be framed either as Zandalari, or Blood Trolls, I'm not sure BfA will alleviate that problem.

[dwarven]

The necromancer class - if it ever comes - will surely consist on summoning armies of dead against your enemy.

Of course we already have Demonology class as the "summon" spec and we already have Unholy DK as the "army of the dead" spec.

These specs should be revamped.

- Demonology will go back to its roots and consists of the warlock doing demonic spells.

- The Unholy Death Knight will also go to its roots in WCIII and consist of a DoT melee spec that spreads illnesses. No more raising the dead, that will be left to the Necromancer as it has always been.

The obvious specs of the necromancer are:

- The "summon" spec where you keep summoning an army of dead to attack the enemy, just like Demonology is actually.

-The plague spec where you kill your enemies with plagues. I know it already overlaps the DK but so does destruction and fire mage, or frost mage and DK. The difference is always that one is a caster and the other is a melee spec. This also happens with Demonology and Demon Hunters. Again, in one you are commanding the power, in other you are the power.

I would go as far as giving the necromancer a third spec, a healing spec based on Blood.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[laughtrey]

Nah, in WoW Necromancy is a subset of Fel magic. If necromancy was ever going to be a thing it'd be DK or Warlocks, not a new class.

[Kiradyn]

If you need to destroy two other specs to make room for your new class, that's a pretty good sign your new class is completely unnecessary and should not be added.

Pretty much this.

[Dnusha]

Can people stop with this fucking shit? It's not coming, there's so many more interesting classes that would not be a copy of what already exists, Necromancers won't be a thing in WoW, you can stop now.

this /10chars

[Wildberry]

Nah, in WoW Necromancy is a subset of Fel magic. If necromancy was ever going to be a thing it'd be DK or Warlocks, not a new class.

[Citation Needed]

Really though, Chronicle debunks this nonsense and places Necromantic magic in its own category apart from Fel.

[Hitei]

I see Wildberry is still fighting the good fight.

[Wildberry]

I see Wildberry is still fighting the good fight.

Vol'jin's not Warchief anymore. I need a new pet topic.

[Hitei]

Vol'jin's not Warchief anymore. I need a new pet topic.

Like how Necromancers are top tier but Bards are better?

[Pandragon]

Nothing has to be changed to Unholy to make a Necromancer. Unholy summons powerful undead. Ghouls, Aboms, Val'kyr, but in small numbers. The necromancer can summon weaker undead in greater numbers. Skeletons.

My idea for the necromancer is he has 2 "stances". Skeleton knights, and Skeleton Archers/Mages. If the skeletons take damage, so does he. So One of the things the player has to do, is be mindful of where his skeletons are. If the boss goes to hit melee, then you drop the skeleton knights, and raise ranged skeletons and vice versa. If at ranged you get hit, run to avoid while dismissing the ranged, and raising melee. The 2 stances would have a cd, so you cant drop ranged, then raise them right away. The necromancers attacking abilities change based on the type of skeletons he has out.