Naxxramas 60 vs Naxxramas 80 difficulty?

[Elim Garak]

I heard someone in another thread say that Naxxramas in wrath was easy because people knew how it worked not because it was undertuned. Other people seem to think Naxxramas was hard only because people were bad.

This is one of my absolute favourite dead horses to beat, so I'm dragging out its corpse since Blizzard has decided to drag out classic's corpse for this whole shebang.

Of course, Naxxramas wasn't as hard as modern mythic raids, but numbers-wise it was tuned like them even if the mechanics were mostly simpler (although Four Horsemen from an organizational perspective is pretty complex)



So the bosses in Wrath should've had literally triple the HP to be tuned the same.

Your math is off.

Vanilla patchwerk: 3850000
WoTLK patchwerk10: 4322950
WoTLK patchwerk25: 13038575

Vanilla average top DPS for a guild in gear from BWL and AQ40: 750
Vanilla dps per raid: 26

WoTLK average top DPS in the start of expansion gear: 2000
WoTLK average top DPS in the Naxx10 gear: 4000
WoTLK dps in raid10: 6
WoTLK dps in raid25: 16

Assuming same skill

P10 DPS ratio adjusted for dps per raid (start of the expansion): (6/26) * (2000 / 750) = 0.6154 (tanks unaccounted for)
P25 DPS ratio adjusted for dps per raid (start of the expansion): (16/26) * (2000 / 750) = 1.641 (tanks unaccounted for)
DPS ratio adjusted for dps per raid (after Naxx10): (16/26) * (4000 / 750) = 3.282 (tanks unaccounted for)
Patchwerk10 HP ratio = 4322950/3850000 = 1.1228
Patchwerk25 HP ratio = 13038575/3850000 = 3.3866

Conclusion:
if you went to Naxx10 in questing gear/blues (no heroics) - you would be having a hard time in there.
if you went to Naxx25 before going thru Naxx10 - you would be raped in there.
if you went thru Naxx10 (as you were supposed to) first, you would be experiencing the same difficulty as in Vanilla (excluding the necessary changes to mechanics for WoTLK class changes) BUT you would know all the tactics.

[epLe]

That's obviously not true to anyone who understands what mythic Kil'jaeden was at release.

How he was at release doesnt really matter much now.

How he is now after 6 months, 600+ guilds killed him -compare to the 23 guilds who ever killed KT at 60.

Timeframe is the same, Raiding base is not 30 times bigger, the difference is that naxx60 was way more difficult.
(Every aspect of "difficulty" included)

[Nitros14]

Your math is off.

Let's look a bit closer.

Here's a first kill of Patchwerk from curse in vanilla, one of the top guilds in the world.



The top dps is 667. Also, his HP adds up to ~4,000,000 not 3,850,000.

There are four tanks, fifteen healers (guilds used more healers in vanilla due to mana constraints) and 21 DPS, not 26.



Here's one of our first kills of Patchwerk from my ancient screenshot folder in WOTLK.

What happens if you redo your math with these variables instead?

[Akka]

qft, this really should have been the last post on this thread.

Save for the fact it was wrong. Maybe you should have read the thread past that to get educated in basic facts.

- - - Updated - - -

Conclusion:
if you went to Naxx10 in questing gear/blues (no heroics) - you would be having a hard time in there.
if you went to Naxx25 before going thru Naxx10 - you would be raped in there.
if you went thru Naxx10 (as you were supposed to) first, you would be experiencing the same difficulty as in Vanilla (excluding the necessary changes to mechanics for WoTLK class changes) BUT you would know all the tactics.

This is so comically false you should have stopped right here and knew there was something fucked up in your reasoning.

[Elim Garak]

Let's look a bit closer.

Here's a first kill of Patchwerk from curse in vanilla, one of the top guilds in the world.



The top dps is 667. Also, his HP adds up to ~4,000,000 not 3,850,000.

There are four tanks, fifteen healers (guilds used more healers in vanilla due to mana constraints) and 21 DPS, not 26.

And it took them more than 8 minutes, 1 minute too long. Proves my math perfectly.

This is so comically false you should have stopped right here and knew there was something fucked up in your reasoning.

So why didn't you stop?

[Nitros14]

And it took them more than 8 minutes, 1 minute too long. Proves my math perfectly.

I'm not sure I follow.

[Akka]

So why didn't you stop?

You're the one trying to make a point. You just failed to take into account reality when you reached your conclusion. Or you just wanted to refuse it because it didn't fit with the conclusion you wanted to reach.

[Elim Garak]

I'm not sure I follow.

They weren't geared enough for that boss. Your problem is you think that the first kill is the perfect kill. Many guilds who raided Naxx in vanilla when it just came out weren't geared enough for it because it's hard to gear enough players to have 40 active raiders at the same gear level at the same time - but they still raided - they tried to kill as many bosses as they could while constantly gearing up in AQ40 and BWL.

Killing Patchwerk beyond enrage is fine, but it's still killing it beyond enrage and that means only one thing. Undergeared/Underdps. Maybe they should've went with 26 DPS. Maybe they should've been better geared. It doesn't matter, they killed it, right? But this topic is not about crazy first kills. It's about tuning. And that first kill shows that they were undergeared for the tuning and it is inline with my math.

You're the one trying to make a point.

Exactly. I am. You are not though.

[Nitros14]

They weren't geared enough for that boss. Your problem is you think that the first kill is the perfect kill. Many guilds who raided Naxx in vanilla when it just came out weren't geared enough for it because it's hard to gear enough players to have 40 active raiders at the same gear level at the same time - but they still raided - they tried to kill as many bosses as they could while constantly gearing up in AQ40 and BWL.

Killing Patchwerk beyond enrage is fine, but it's still killing it beyond enrage and that means only one thing. Undergeared/Underdps. Maybe they should've went with 26 DPS. Maybe they should've been better geared. It doesn't matter, they killed it, right? But this topic is not about crazy first kills. It's about tuning. And that first kill shows that they were undergeared for the tuning and it is inline with my math.

Exactly. I am. You are not though.

Yes but the video I linked has a six minute kill time, not an eight minute one. Combat begins at 0:47 and ends at 6:45. They kill it well before enrage. EDIT I am wrong, but it's still not eight minutes?

If we feed in the variables from above we get

(16/21) * (4500/529) = 6.481

13038575/4000000 = 3.259

So Patchwerk has a 50% HP debuff on him, effectively, in WOTLK.

[Elim Garak]

Yes but the video I linked has a six minute kill time, not an eight minute one. Combat begins at 0:47 and ends at 6:45.

What? did you even watch the video? There's chat in it it shows all the info. It even ticks the fight length every 30 seconds.

Fight started 4:43
Enrage: 4:50
Fight ended 4:51

[Nitros14]

What? did you even watch the video? There's chat in it it shows all the info. It even ticks the fight length every 30 seconds.

Fight started 4:43
Enrage: 4:50
Fight ended 4:51

I guess they sped it up. But it's not eight minutes, the boss dies right after the raid warning says seven minutes.

Anyway, in actual WOTLK we never came close to Patchwerk's enrage even the first week. This high ranked guild going gung ho with consumables actually hits Patchwerk's vanilla enrage. That should probably tell you it wasn't close to the vanilla experience.

[Surfd]

A lot of people think that mechanics make raids hard, and to be fair that's true to some extent for a lot of guilds. But for top end guilds the only thing that makes raids hard is insane numbers tuning.

As has been pointed out at least once by myself, and a few times by other people: Numbers are part of the mechanics. A void zone that instakills you if you don't get out of it before it forms is an important, deadly mechanic. A void zone that tickles you a little bit and causes your healers to get pissed at you because you just stand in the shit until someone yells at you is an annoyance at best, and ignoreable at worst. This was the problem with quite a lot of LFR raids. Mechanics tuned so low that people could clear the entire raid without noticing them because they didn't do anything important. Then those same people would go try a normal raid, and get the shit slapped out of them by those same mechanics and have no idea what hit them, because LFR taught them nothing.

[Nitros14]

As has been pointed out at least once by myself, and a few times by other people: Numbers are part of the mechanics. A void zone that instakills you of you don't get out of it before it forms is an important, deadly mechanic. A void zone that tickles you a little bit and causes your healers to get pissed at you because you just stand in the shit until someone yells at you is an annoyance at best, and ignore able at worst. This was the problem with quite a lot of LFR raids. Mechanics tuned so low that people could clear the entire raid without noticing them because they didn't do anything important. Then those same people would go try a normal raid, and get the shit slapped out of them by those same mechanics and have no idea what hit them, because LFR taught them nothing.

That's kind of what I was trying to say, except maybe not as clearly as you put it.

[Elim Garak]

I guess they sped it up. But it's not eight minutes, the boss dies right after the raid warning says seven minutes.

Anyway, in actual WOTLK we never came close to Patchwerk's enrage even the first week. This high ranked guild going gung ho with consumables actually hits Patchwerk's vanilla enrage. That should probably tell you it wasn't close to the vanilla experience.

I gave you timestamps, only minutes, though. Do the math. The video is edited so it can be anything. Maybe it's two different fights. Maybe it bugged. Judging by the guys red ping he could've disconnected. The system chat time stamp is real though. 4:43 -> 4:51 = 8 minutes.

[Akka]

Exactly. I am. You are not though.

I'm making a reality check, with plain basic facts proving your point is ridiculously false.
Basic behaviour expected by anyone not stupid when theories are proved false : check them.
Your behaviour : pretend to ignore reality.
Draw your conclusions. If possible, ones who actually aren't contradicted by facts this time.

[Nitros14]

I gave you timestamps, only minutes, though. Do the math. The video is edited so it can be anything. Maybe it's two different fights. Maybe it bugged. Judging by the guys red ping he could've disconnected. The system chat time stamp is real though. 4:43 -> 4:51 = 8 minutes.

Something very strange is going on here. Eight minute kill is not possible. He spews slime bolts at everyone at 7:30. Every source lists Patchwerk's berserk at 7 minutes, I remember it being seven. The boss mods back then put it at seven as you can see here and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwCRXXDhKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jslE407n4OI

[Deleted]

That fact that someone compairs the starting raid of an expansion with the last raid of an expansion shows, that he doesnt know how stuff is balanced in wow. The first raid of EVERY expansion is always tuned easier for multiple reasons. Its easier to get more players start raiding this expansion and make it easier for new players, that started at expansion start, to get into raiding. Its also easier, because of the class balance that is more of at the start of an expansion. Thats why they are able to tune bosses harder, but still on point, at every ongoing raid during an expansion.

For alot of old school fanboys, BC raiding was the pinacle of raiding and WoD the easiest content ever. Why not compair the difficulty of BCs starting raid Karazhan to the end raid of WoD Hellfire Citadel on Mythic. Which raid had the higher DPS requirement? Which raid had more, harder to execute and punishing mechanics? Logic wise, at least to some players in this thread, Kara should be alot harder, because BC was harder. Everyone that did both raids in their prime knows that it would be unfair for Kara to compair these 2 raids.

So please stop compairing stuff you cant compair, just to fake proof your favorite version of wow is better than the favorite wow version of everyone else. This does not work, isnt helpful and just leads to a more toxic community.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/9b/e9/a...orange-art.jpg

[Elim Garak]

Something very strange is going on here. Eight minute kill is not possible. He spews slime bolts at everyone at 7:30. Every source lists Patchwerk's berserk at 7 minutes, I remember it being seven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwCRXXDhKc The boss mods back then put it at seven as you can see here.

It could be a bug, that his timers got delayed. It happened a lot back then. The fact remains regardless of his enrage timer they spent 8 minutes. If enrage timer got bugged and delayed that means they got LUCKY.

I'm making a reality check, with plain basic facts proving your point is ridiculously false.

You are failing at it then. You presented zero facts.

[Nitros14]

It could be a bug, that his timers got delayed. It happened a lot back then. The fact remains regardless of his enrage timer they spent 8 minutes. If enrage timer got bugged and delayed that means they got LUCKY.


You are failing at it then. You presented zero facts.

I'm more inclined to think there's something wrong with the timestamps because of their lag. European servers were notoriously bad and spotty back then. I've never heard of or seen a bug with enrage timers like that and I've been raiding a long time.

Anyway Elim Garak thanks for correcting my math. It's more like a 50% health debuff than a 66% one.

[Akka]

You are failing at it then. You presented zero facts.

There is zero fact for someone purposedly playing dumb.
Fact : Naxx40 was so hard even hardcore guilds could barely kill a few bosses there after five monthes.
Fact : Naxx80 was facerolled in leveling green by midcore guilds.

I guess playing dumb to grasp at straws is closer to your actual core argument than making an intelligent point.