Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Pull My Finger]

Oh, so this is another one of those threads that prove the truth of the "you think you do, but you don't" statement? How original.

[Revamp Man]

No I don't. You miss the point.

I'm just saying that class balancing and discussion about class balancing was a big part of the original world of warcraft and therefore I think it should also be a part of the game today. No matter which "version" they release.

let the discussion be had sure but there should be nothing coming from it

vanilla wow has been completely defined because there is a list and its called patch notes

[Deleted]

stop moaning as if this is a major issue.

you can't have classes being useless and not being selected for vanilla content. that is just silly argument to want that the same.

keep all the content the same and just introduce balance to the classes which given the years of exp at attempting this, Blizzard should be able to achieve to some extent.

at least enough of a balance that everything can be cleared assuming you know how to play your class/spec and are geared.


very simple solution and not a reason to be screaming the sky is falling.

Its SPECS being useless, not CLASSES. Every class has a good spec in raiding. You might have to heal, but you know that before choosing that class.

[RapBreon]

That patch seemed to work fine on private servers, considering the amount of players asking for officials classic servers. Why try to fix something that isn't broken ?

These are jerry-rigged simulacrums. The best they get is staggering the content, but not the patches themselves. By the end of 1.12 a lot of power-creep was introduced, power-creep earlier content was not designed to handle.

Do you actually want 12 day (from server opening, this includes leveling and gearing) MC clears? Because this was not part of the initial classic experience on the official servers, not even remotely. This is a special experience, provided by private servers. They did their best and they did a fantastic job considering their situation, but surely you can ask a bit more from the company who is going to revive it. Rather than release servers with a drastically reduced lifespan and 70% of the content irrelevant. I've wanted legacy servers for a long time and I've enjoyed private servers here and there, but I want more than what a couple of people in their spare time can do (even if it's a good job), I expect more.

So to answer your question more succinctly: A previous absence of options does imply the best option now.

[Kaver]

i don't mean to be condescending; however, it's not about whether i disagree. it's about arguing for something that should be and shouldn't be.

looking at vanilla as if BC never existed means it's not vanilla. you want to explore the concept of a hybrid 60 capped retail game and that's not what people have been fighting for. they want vanilla as it is defined right now. not what it could be, but what it was. the patch could be different, but no matter the patch, the classes should exist now as they did then.

blizzard isn't introducing these classic servers to appease those who wish to remaster vanilla in a game that looks more like today's polished version. they are creating them for the people who want the game as it was in as pure a form as possible. that could be different depending on the person, but suggesting that anything be changed or updated goes against what the servers are intended to be.

I get your point. It seems like we have different views on the "vanilla experience".

I played in vanilla, but I haven't played on private servers and I haven't been pushing for the Classic server.

That said, I would still like to see the game as I remember it. Maybe that's selfish of me. But I remember a fluid vanilla where you didn't knew what was going to happen the next day. Maybe some of the raids which were planned but never added, could now be added.

But I understand this is not what you and many others want.

Blizzard is probably going to deliver the product which is best for business...

[Super Kami Dende]

When you go back and play an old game, you do not play that game with updated this and fixed that. You play the game as it was at the time. Old graphics, some bugs, less features than the current version. Those are the things that make it feel like the old game that you played before. If you change those things, it will not be the same.

actually most of the Old games I play, I play as remasters that get released years later, that are the same game but with fixes that came after the original release.

[Revamp Man]

I just have another point of view on the subject. It's healthy for the world that not all people have the exact same mind set. I'm not talking condescending to you just because you have different opinions than me.

I don't see vanilla as defined. I want to look at vanilla as if TBC was never released.

it doesnt matter what you see vanilla as

vanilla ended therefore it is defined

otherwise the argument could be made is legion is still vanilla

[Deleted]

I want Vanilla content with rebalanced classes. But even more than that, I want y'all to stop telling me what I want.

Then you also have to redo all raids and dungeons in terms of balancing. It will also fuck up PvP no matter what you do.

You cannot have vanilla content with rebalanced classes. Its impossible.

[Deleted]

These are jerry-rigged simulacrums. The best they get is staggering the content, but not the patches themselves. By the end of 1.12 a lot of power-creep was introduced, power-creep earlier content was not designed to handle.

Do you actually want 12 day (from server opening, this includes leveling and gearing) MC clears? Because this was not part of the initial classic experience on the official servers, not even remotely. This is a special experience, provided by private servers. They did their best and they did a fantastic job considering their situation, but surely you can ask a bit more from the company who is going to revive it. Rather than release servers with a drastically reduced lifespan and 70% of the content irrelevant. I've wanted legacy servers for a long time and I've enjoyed private servers here and there, but I want more than what a couple of people in their spare time can do (even if it's a good job), I expect more.

So to answer your question more succinctly: A previous absence of options does imply the best option now.

Mate I don't care, I just want vanilla servers with untouched classes and balance. If 1.12 is the compromise then so be it. If you find the early content too easy in patch 1.12, you can run it with some pieces of gear unequipped to increase difficulty.

Trouble is nobody can say whether a change will be for the best and I sure don't trust modern blizzard to know how to fix things, so in those conditions maybe it is better to just don't change anything.

[Keltas]

I don't think people who want raid balance understand how bad that would be for every other aspect of vanilla. Raiding wasn't, and isn't, everything in vanilla. Many of the hybrid dps could get invites to dungeons without problems, and could find raid spots if they put a modicum of effort in.

If you give shadow priests the mana pool/cost reductions to be as much dps as a mage then suddenly shadow is even more of a god in pvp (and aoe).

If you make ret a balanced dps in lower end raid content, they will be far and away the best dps in all the undead content like naxx. Plus they'd absolutely destroy everyone in group utility. They would go from sure we'll bring you to dungeons, and maybe one or two in a raid, to every dungeon wants a ret paladin and nothing else.

If you increase the dot cap (one of the few changes I'd kinda like to see, but would be challenging) then suddenly affliction becomes a sustain/dps monster in raids.


One of the only specs that I think could honestly use any kind of "balancing" without it being overly damaging is boomkin, and only because a 20% mana reduction across the board and nothing else wouldn't make them too strong anywhere else (that I remember, please correct me if I'm wrong).


None of the hybrid specs were so terrible that they couldn't even get dungeon groups, none were so terrible you could absolutely not get a raid group, and many of them had utility and/or were powerful in other aspects of the game. If they apply balancing to them, it can only be slight mana/damage tweaks, and it needs to be done extremely carefully. It should also not ship with the game, but should be introduced later on if they still struggle.

[RapBreon]

Mate I don't care, I just want vanilla servers with untouched classes and balance. If 1.12 is the compromise then so be it. If you find the early content to easy in patch 1.12, you can run it with some pieces of gear unequipped to increase difficulty.

If you want exactly what a private server provides already, why not just stay on a private server? I know there is many reasons to that question...but why wouldn't you want something better if it's now a possibility to have? If I can't get any better than a emulation of an emulation (Blizzard emulating private servers) so be it, but to put settling as your opening argument is ???? You're essentially asking for an expac but with 2/3rds of the endgame content trivialized, I don't understand.

The last line is a bit daft though.

[Deleted]

If you want exactly what a private server provides already, why not just stay on a private server? I know there is many reasons to that question...but why wouldn't you want something better if it's now a possibility to have? If I can't get any better than a emulation of an emulation (Blizzard emulation private servers) so be it, but to put that forward as your argument for settling out of the gate is ???? You're essentially asking for an expac but with 2/3rds of the endgame content trivialized, I don't understand.

The last line is a bit daft though.

The entire and only point of classic servers is to reexperience Vanilla WoW. This only makes sense if Vanilla WoW is still Vanilla WoW. If you change any of it then why even do classic servers? Just stay on live servers.

[Zoldor]

The problem with balance is the entire class deign was different in Vanilla, more so than anywhere. Buff classes existed, who sole purpose was that. Mana batteries. and they were designed that way, it is kind of the problem with 40 man raiding is some specs had a purpose it just wasn't the best or most sexy purpose and gimped them in content outside of raids.

Vanilla is a wild beast and I sort of don't mind the imbalance. Adding paladin taunt and making them a viable tank gimps horde, as there is no true shaman tank. That means warrior and bear only horde side, and bear being very niche.

It is going to be interesting and I think the best decision for blizz is impliment a single patch (1.12 or something, not the person to ask which is best) and ride it out from there. Changing the game too much is basically a redesign. Some of the things added to the game wouldn't be super easy to just add now. It isn't as simple as flip a switch, entire systems would have to be added.

I don't mind a totally pure experience based on patch, but I'll probably at best be a tourist for classic.

[Deleted]

If you want exactly what a private server provides already, why not just stay on a private server? I know there is many reasons to that question...but why wouldn't you want something better if it's now a possibility to have? If I can't get any better than a emulation of an emulation (Blizzard emulating private servers) so be it, but to put settling as your opening argument is ???? You're essentially asking for an expac but with 2/3rds of the endgame content trivialized, I don't understand.

The last line is a bit daft though.

Because private servers are illegal ?

I don't want something that wasn't in vanilla at some point because there is a 99 % chance blizzard will mess up if it start changing things balance wise. Plus if something wasn't in vanilla at some point it has no place in classic servers.

[Revamp Man]

I get your point. It seems like we have different views on the "vanilla experience".

I played in vanilla, but I haven't played on private servers and I haven't been pushing for the Classic server.

That said, I would still like to see the game as I remember it. Maybe that's selfish of me. But I remember a fluid vanilla where you didn't knew what was going to happen the next day. Maybe some of the raids which were planned but never added, could now be added.

But I understand this is not what you and many others want.

Blizzard is probably going to deliver the product which is best for business...

ok you just said you didnt push for vanilla

not the people who have worked for it and made themselves heard dont want any changes but there are people such as yourself who try and suggest changes and that is ok its not like you are being malicious or anything but you should realize something....you shouldnt really expect to be able to say "hey i want the changes because i see the game as this way and want to see it continue like that." because you didnt try. You are basically making the argument they have made but years too late. Let the classic guys have what they want and dont moan about it. They put in the effort and we all have access to it. If you go to a birthday party and they serve chocolate cake then you dont get to complain about wanting vanilla cake you just eat the cake or dont and in this case play classic or dont.

Classic should be 1.12 at the latest and shouldnt have any changes other than bug fixes and if you think class balancing is simple i would like to see an example of what you want and what the effects of the change would be because i can guarantee theres more to it.

[RapBreon]

The entire and only point of classic servers is to reexperience Vanilla WoW. This only makes sense if Vanilla WoW is still Vanilla WoW. If you change any of it then why even do classic servers? Just stay on live servers.

Correct. Private servers are a close approximation, but not a proper recreation of actual official Vanilla. That is my entire point.

- - - Updated - - -

Because private servers are illegal ?

I don't want something that wasn't in vanilla at some point because there is a 99 % chance blizzard will mess up if it start changing things balance wise. Plus if something wasn't in vanilla at some point it has no place in classic servers.

But at no point did I advocate for anything to be added to Vanilla that did not exist in Vanilla, in the posts quoted. I advocated for them not emulating private servers. As in recreating the life-span of Vanilla back as it was on official, not as they are on private servers.

[tikcol]

If you want exactly what a private server provides already, why not just stay on a private server? I know there is many reasons to that question...but why wouldn't you want something better if it's now a possibility to have? If I can't get any better than a emulation of an emulation (Blizzard emulation private servers) so be it, but to put that forward as your argument for settling out of the gate is ???? You're essentially asking for an expac but with 2/3rds of the endgame content trivialized, I don't understand.

The last line is a bit daft though.

There's tons of things even the best private server doesn't get right.

- Tiny little bugs that disrupt classes to an unfair degree.
- Hunter pets not attacking while chasing targets correctly.
- Little pathing problems that disrupt casting.
- Power scaling formulas which are erratic at best
- A lot of corruption going on.
- Rampant gold selling and spamming
- Lag and downtime
- Hacks which go unpunished for a long time or even forever.
- Considering it's a single server, it's easy to create monopolies on goods which are always on heavy demand. (I love my monopolies, other don't and I understand)


The "better" people want is just Blizzard doing it. It's also blatantly obvious to anyone that plays on a private server that you never know when it will just vanish.

You're right, you don't understand.

[RapBreon]

There's tons of things even the best private server doesn't get right.

- Tiny little bugs that disrupt classes to an unfair degree.
- Hunter pets not attacking while chasing targets correctly.
- Little pathing problems that disrupt casting.
- Power scaling formulas which are erratic at best
- A lot of corruption going on.
- Rampant gold selling and spamming
- Lag and downtime
- Considering it's a single server, it's easy to create monopolies on goods which are always on heavy demand. (I love my monopolies, other don't and I understand)


The "better" people want is just Blizzard doing it. It's also blatantly obvious to anyone that plays on a private server that you never know when it will just vanish.

You're right, you don't understand.

I mean, I even said there is many reasons, I proposed the question knowing full-well of that. People are really extrapolating a lot from the word better without understanding the context.

Everything you said above the bolded line is exactly what I am saying. So uh, thanks I suppose? Tone's odd for someone who agrees with me though.

[Flarelaine]

Then you also have to redo all raids and dungeons in terms of balancing. It will also fuck up PvP no matter what you do.

You cannot have vanilla content with rebalanced classes. Its impossible.

"Impossible" does not mean "it will not be the same".

- - - Updated - - -

If you increase the dot cap (one of the few changes I'd kinda like to see, but would be challenging) then suddenly affliction becomes a sustain/dps monster in raids.

And that would hurt you because?

[Resentless]

stop moaning as if this is a major issue.

you can't have classes being useless and not being selected for vanilla content. that is just silly argument to want that the same.

keep all the content the same and just introduce balance to the classes which given the years of exp at attempting this, Blizzard should be able to achieve to some extent.

at least enough of a balance that everything can be cleared assuming you know how to play your class/spec and are geared.


very simple solution and not a reason to be screaming the sky is falling.

Lmao, you say this as if blizzard can even balance classes nowadays.