Vanilla wasn't hard, it was annoying

[MoanaLisa]

Leveling in vanilla was both a bit more difficult and annoying. I don't know why these arguments are always framed as mutually exclusive.

It was true that you could die more easily if you messed up or pulled things in the wrong order or generally weren't paying attention. I don't know if having to pay attention makes the game "harder" as such but fine. It's not worth arguing about. You did have to pay more attention then and do more personal resource management when leveling. You don't now.

It was also true that the game was much more fiddly, OCD friendly, and prone to make you do pointless things all in the name of "realism". I'm of two minds about that. Some of it wasn't really necessary to have a proper RPG experience and some of it was. Doesn't matter either really because most of it was eliminated in favor of 1) moving the story along and 2) moving you along so you could raid. I don't know that the first was necessary but I do believe that the second thing pretty much gutted the world game for years.

Legion had Suramar which was a decent attempt to get at least a bit back to that but I think the game could use a lot more.

[Akka]

Leveling in vanilla was both a bit more difficult and annoying. I don't know why these arguments are always framed as mutually exclusive.

Because those who says it's annoying tend to say so to bash Vanilla, so they wish to claim that Legion leveling is not worse, and as Legion leveling being facerolling is one of the main criticism made toward it, they try to pretend that Vanilla is not "better" in this aspect. Simple as that.

It was also true that the game was much more fiddly, OCD friendly, and prone to make you do pointless things all in the name of "realism". I'm of two minds about that. Some of it wasn't really necessary to have a proper RPG experience and some of it was. Doesn't matter either really because most of it was eliminated in favor of 1) moving the story along and 2) moving you along so you could raid. I don't know that the first was necessary but I do believe that the second thing pretty much gutted the world game for years.

Mostly agree here.

Legion had Suramar which was a decent attempt to get at least a bit back to that but I think the game could use a lot more.

The problem is that the whole gameplay doesn't work like that now. It's about maximum output in raid and mass AoE, so the "duel" aspect of Vanilla can't really work again.
Also, the power inflation reached such ridiculous level that Suramar can go from "challenging" to "facerolling" very quickly if you get some gear, making the whole attempt pointless.

[asil]

Yeah keep telling yourself that, my guess is that you weren't even there and just claim it like everyone else or your "experiences" with vanilla were on private servers.

No, I played vanilla, I played from the very first fucking day. PVE was a complete joke, it was never challenging for me, the only challenging aspect was dealing with the fact 20-25 people in your raid literally had a learning disability.

I never clicked/keyboard turned and was never bad at the game though, given the fact I went on to get multiple gladiator/r1 titles. But that doesn't change the fact, on a personal level, vanilla pve was never hard, anyone telling you that it is was just bad at the game in vanilla and that's why it felt hard.

You're just wrong, and you'll quickly realize why you're wrong when classic servers are up.

[pateuvasiliu]

WoW is a far better "game" now. However, as it gradually became a better designed game mechanically speaking, it became less and less of a "fantasy world simulation". I think that's what people are really missing when they think back on the olden days.

No it's not. The gameplay might be more flashy and mechanically rich but it lost its soul.

[Bainnor]

It pretty much came down to "spam these two buttons, sometimes hit a third button, dont stand in bad shit."

And "Run to the tank". I eagerly await the return of the melee-range, on the GCD, resource-costing, requires spell-hit cap taunt ability that is merely a fixate, not an actual change in threat. Oh, and it's 10s cooldown (talented down to 7)!

[Emerald Archer]

5-mans generally took a lot more thought and mistakes were more punishing.

Currently 5 mans are more difficult because of mythic+, because they are as hard as you can handle. In expansions prior, sure 100% agree, it became mass pull and aoe, but how they currently are, is definitely more difficult than any other time, because there's no limit to the difficulty.

[Akka]

Currently 5 mans are more difficult because of mythic+, because they are as hard as you can handle. In expansions prior, sure 100% agree, it became mass pull and aoe, but how they currently are, is definitely more difficult than any other time, because there's no limit to the difficulty.

It's also a very different kind of difficulty.
M+ are all about speed, while Vanilla dungeons were all about completion and exploration. M+ gameplay is much more spammy and flashy (lots and lots of AoE) while Vanilla dungeons were more deliberate, cautious, and managing to rush was actually a feat, not something considered baseline.
I found M+ extremely boring on the whole.

[Emerald Archer]

It's also a very different kind of difficulty.
M+ are all about speed, while Vanilla dungeons were all about completion and exploration. M+ gameplay is much more spammy and flashy (lots and lots of AoE) while Vanilla dungeons were more deliberate, cautious, and managing to rush was actually a feat, not something considered baseline.
I found M+ extremely boring on the whole.

You clearly haven't done very high m+ then, it's about completion with 0 mistakes at a fast pace, which involves having to use CC, think about your pulls, design perfect (or copy) routes.

It's literally the difficulty (and harder) of vanilla stuff PLUS having to do it fast (but in very high m+ that isn't nearly as important as completing it with 0 deaths 0 wipes) steady pace is what you want in high keys.

[Lashab]

Depends on what you guys call "hard". In the past quest mobs killed you. Just traveling on the road was dangerous. Pulling 2 mobs at a time was dangerous. Today you can kill mobs "just by looking at them".

Sure, mythic raids are hard in modern wow. And hardcore pvp. Both of which require sleepless nights and etc. But apart from that, the game is extremely boring... Killing 100 wolves are grinding and doing 100 quests that require just pushing 3 buttons and moving is not?

[Felpleb]

It was hard because ppl were bad as fook. Nowdays it wont be hard at all since ppl are better than in 2004-2006. That's it.

[Akka]

You clearly haven't done very high m+ then, it's about completion with 0 mistakes at a fast pace, which involves having to use CC, think about your pulls, design perfect (or copy) routes.

I went up to M+14, which isn't that high but is high enough to know I found this playstyle flashy, spammy and boring. It's better than regular normal/heroic/mythic dungeons because at least sometimes you have to use situational spells and you actually have a risk of dieing, but it's still very much the same action game design which I find much less interesting than the Vanilla one.

[RapBreon]

I went up to M+14, which isn't that high but is high enough to know I found this playstyle flashy, spammy and boring. It's better than regular normal/heroic/mythic dungeons because at least sometimes you have to use situational spells and you actually have a risk of dieing, but it's still very much the same action game design which I find much less interesting than the Vanilla one.

The scaling is exponential. You're entitled to not like the style, but it definitely requires tighter execution in the 20+ range than a Vanilla dungeon ever did. Time is on your side in a Vanilla dungeon so to speak, patience and tenacity are your weapons. M+ strips the most powerful tool a player has, attrition, or rather unlimited attempts ('immortality'). You can CC a pack and single pull because you have the time to afford, high M+ doesn't grant that luxury.

[Akka]

The scaling is exponential. You're entitled to not like the style, but it definitely requires tighter execution in the 20+ range than a Vanilla dungeon ever did. Time is on your side in a Vanilla dungeon so to speak, patience and tenacity are your weapons. M+ strips the most powerful tool a player has, attrition, or rather unlimited attempts ('immortality'). You can CC a pack and single pull because you have the time to afford, high M+ doesn't grant that luxury.

I certainly don't disagree. Vanilla dungeons could be challenging, but they weren't really "hard" (save maybe for the Baron 45). M+ can be downright hairy. But it's still very, very boring.

[RapBreon]

I certainly don't disagree. Vanilla dungeons could be challenging, but they weren't really "hard" (save maybe for the Baron 45). M+ can be downright hairy. But it's still very, very boring.

Entirely fair enough. Not everyone wants to go fast, shit not everyone wants to go fast all the time!

[Mosotti]

I think wildstar showed us that being hard isn't what gamers want. It's about fun.

Stop comparing Wildstar with WoW. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING, IT NEVER WAS. I bought that game full price and played for 2 days, not because it was hard, but because it was boring...

Also, "gamers" is not something universal, when you say "gamers" you just refer to you and the ones alike. There are "gamers" that prefer something totally different.

[kamuimac]

I certainly don't disagree. Vanilla dungeons could be challenging, but they weren't really "hard" (save maybe for the Baron 45). M+ can be downright hairy. But it's still very, very boring.

do them in intended itlv aka mythic + 10 with 900-905 itlv team intead 945+ one and come tell how boring they are to 3 chest it.

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Stop comparing Wildstar with WoW. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING, IT NEVER WAS. I bought that game full price and played for 2 days, not because it was hard, but because it was boring...

Also, "gamers" is not something universal, when you say "gamers" you just refer to you and the ones alike. There are "gamers" that prefer something totally different.

the comparison is more then valid since one of main selling points of wildstar was "current wow is shit we are making game for people who loved vanilla wow"

and now if it wasnt for steam and 800-1000 people playing it in prime time there, servers would be long closed,

[Hottage]

do them in intended itlv aka mythic + 10 with 900-905 itlv team intead 945+ one and come tell how boring they are to 3 chest it.

Indeed.

The current dungeon content is dull because we as players collectively decided we prefer to vastly outgear the instances and crush them as efficiently as possible, instead of challenging ourselves with gear-appropriate content.

I did a Lower Karazhan +10 yesterday with a group which still slightly outgeared it (~915 average all PUGs).
Even though we barely completed it in time (2 minutes left or so), it was a lot of fun because it was an actual challenge.
There was tension and excitement as the timer approached, we rushed and flapped and it was the most fun I've had in dungeons in a while. I might start finding "undergeared" groups for dungeons more often.

[Nitros14]

do them in intended itlv aka mythic + 10 with 900-905 itlv team intead 945+ one and come tell how boring they are to 3 chest it.

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the comparison is more then valid since one of main selling points of wildstar was "current wow is shit we are making game for people who loved vanilla wow"

and now if it wasnt for steam and 800-1000 people playing it in prime time there, servers would be long closed,

To be fair, they didn't do a very good job of it.

[Mosotti]

the comparison is more then valid since one of main selling points of wildstar was "current wow is shit we are making game for people who loved vanilla wow"

So if I make a shitty car, like a horrible piece of shit and declare "Current BMW is shit, we are making this car for those who loved vanilla BMW" the comparison is valid? Dat logique...

[Akka]

do them in intended itlv aka mythic + 10 with 900-905 itlv team intead 945+ one and come tell how boring they are to 3 chest it.

Akka : "they are hard, but the gameplay is boring"
Kamuimac : "make them hard, they won't be boring"
I know you're a lost cause, but even then I can't help but wonder. Do you even understand the meaning of what you read ? (rhetoric question, the answer is obviously "no")

Oh, BTW, I stopped playing Legion after finishing the Nightholde, and I stopped doing M+ well before that. When I did my +14, I was about ilvl 880 to 890, so it's pretty humorous to see you say "try a +10 at 905". So, well, lol. Like, LOL.
Edit : scratch that, it was actually a +15. I didn't even remember I had the achievement. Shows just how much I found M+ fun.