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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by getupkid55 View Post
    I raided as warlock in Vanilla, and can safely say SM/Ruin was basically the top DPS spec in the game for the better part of vanilla. No clue what you're on about.
    It's weird to me as well, because when I played on US servers in Vanilla, SM/Ruin was indeed well-regarded, but on EU? Everyone seemed to think 'locks were trash. Same content, same gear, same specs but...

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    To be fair, regarding aggro he does have a point. On Horde side you often had to wand or you'd pull aggro, this was especially a problem in BWL for me. However, it doesn't need fixing. Warlocks were fine in vanilla. We sometimes had BWL raids with 6-7 Warlocks.
    Horde warlocks managed just fine. Also he was Alliance. He was in the best guild in the game and everybody else was complete garbage though so our tiny brains can't comprehend what he's talking about.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    It's weird to me as well, because when I played on US servers in Vanilla, SM/Ruin was indeed well-regarded, but on EU? Everyone seemed to think 'locks were trash. Same content, same gear, same specs but...
    I suspect that was due to the BIG CRITS BIG CRITS MUST HAVE BIG CRITS and then pull agro and die mentality a lot of warlocks had. biggest trick to warlock management was knowing when to stop casting for a few seconds after a series of Big Crits. which was fairly common with us when geared right

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    None of them need to disappear, though, do they?

    As for "ruins the tailoring market", ROFL jesus wept. You are joking/trolling right? Surely? A niche item for one of the least-popular classes in the game, and you believe the entire tailoring market revolves around it?
    yes, soulstones, healtstones need to dissapear THEY STILL DO TODAY as have they allways done so. Conjured items dissapear 15 minutes after logging out.
    even mage food has allways and still does dissapear.

    also yes, it makes a bunch of recipes useless, a bunch of quests for warlocks usless, and then if you change that hunters will suddenly ask for larger stacks of food and ammo.
    then all classes will ask for larger stacks of reagents. then every class will start asking for bigger bags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by getupkid55 View Post
    I raided as warlock in Vanilla, and can safely say SM/Ruin was basically the top DPS spec in the game for the better part of vanilla. No clue what you're on about.
    Sm ruin, you mean DS ruin?
    sm ruin was best till 1.6 but 1.6 till BC was much longer, and for all that time DS ruin was king
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    yes, soulstones, healtstones need to dissapear THEY STILL DO TODAY as have they allways done so. Conjured items dissapear 15 minutes after logging out.
    even mage food has allways and still does dissapear.

    also yes, it makes a bunch of recipes useless, a bunch of quests for warlocks usless, and then if you change that hunters will suddenly ask for larger stacks of food and ammo.
    then all classes will ask for larger stacks of reagents. then every class will start asking for bigger bags.

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    Sm ruin, you mean DS ruin?
    sm ruin was best till 1.6 but 1.6 till BC was much longer, and for all that time DS ruin was king
    not if you were the blood pact warlock :P

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadofall View Post
    not if you were the blood pact warlock :P
    then you ran MD ruin
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadofall View Post
    I suspect that was due to the BIG CRITS BIG CRITS MUST HAVE BIG CRITS and then pull agro and die mentality a lot of warlocks had. biggest trick to warlock management was knowing when to stop casting for a few seconds after a series of Big Crits. which was fairly common with us when geared right
    Yeah, that probably explains it. We certainly had one very good Warlock in the raid who rarely, if ever, died, but the others tended to die horribly. I dunno I was just healing people and looking horrified.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    also yes, it makes a bunch of recipes useless, a bunch of quests for warlocks usless, and then if you change that hunters will suddenly ask for larger stacks of food and ammo.
    then all classes will ask for larger stacks of reagents. then every class will start asking for bigger bags.
    You just can't stop the hyperbole/shit-talking, can you, Fel?

    "a bunch".

    FelPlague's definition of "a bunch" is:

    A side-reward from two quests you had to do anyway (Succubus and Felhunter) - to FelPlague, this is a "bunch of quests" which are now "useless", because I guess FelPlague doesn't think you should have Succubus or Felhunter pets?

    3 recipes. 3 is "a bunch" now, guys!

    And those 3 recipes being under-used will "ruin tailoring", according to FelPlague!

    Maybe turn in down like, not just a notch, but several notches, FelPlague?

  8. #68
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    Whenever I tested SM/Ruin in raids I would have such huge aggro issues, instead of master demonologist/Ruin, I would have to hold back shadow bolts extremely often and the DPS ended up being no big difference.

    It was a fucking amazing spec and PVP and for smaller groups, of this I am aware, but we're talking raids here only, at least I am.

    Our class leader forced all the warlocks to go MD/ruin and if we didn't spec that we'd be left out.

    Here's a clip of our guild killing Huhuran in AQ40: (dmg meters at 2:55 until end).


    As you can see, our warlocks are very low with me being the top lock at the 13th place. This is where our warlocks were all through BWL, AQ40 and Naxx40. I looked on a bunch of our guilds other videos from EU firsts etc but couldn't see any other videos with the damage meters visible.

    Now I was very well geared, and knew how to play (basically how to shadow bolt spam without over aggroing) and how to not die to mechanics. And still the DPS was so low. So what could I do different? Go SM/Ruin and over aggro? Learn to play better and spam shadow bolt better, really?

    I'm just speaking from my own experience, I haven't mained warlock since vanilla and switched to shaman from BC on onwards.

    Maybe me and the other warlocks in my guild were all braindead and couldn't cast shadow bolt correctly despite being in a top 3 EU guild at the time. Or maybe the class was gimped. I read the warlock class forums daily during those days and can say it was a very unanimous feeling among us back then that the class was gimped as far as raid DPS went. Again I repeat the class was amazing for soloing, PvP and smaller grp content. Also the class complaining on the forums doesn't prove anything but I'm just saying.

    Maybe we had some of the best rogues and mages in the world too, yet again there's a lot of factors to be taken into account. I remember all our warlocks being competent and trying everything to boost our DPS but nothing prevailed. By Naxx time it was just depressing for us.

    However I'll roll lock again in classic and hope to be proven wrong. I do love the class despite all it's shortcomings.

    I think I don't really have anything more to add to the discussion so I'll bow out. Have a good one.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Yeah, that probably explains it. We certainly had one very good Warlock in the raid who rarely, if ever, died, but the others tended to die horribly. I dunno I was just healing people and looking horrified.



    You just can't stop the hyperbole/shit-talking, can you, Fel?

    "a bunch".

    FelPlague's definition of "a bunch" is:

    A side-reward from two quests you had to do anyway (Succubus and Felhunter) - to FelPlague, this is a "bunch of quests" which are now "useless", because I guess FelPlague doesn't think you should have Succubus or Felhunter pets?

    3 recipes. 3 is "a bunch" now, guys!

    And those 3 recipes being under-used will "ruin tailoring", according to FelPlague!

    Maybe turn in down like, not just a notch, but several notches, FelPlague?
    Can you just admit your wrong and not be a dick?
    you legit made a complaint that soulshards vanished from your inventory on logging out?
    also
    quest
    quest
    tailoring
    tailoring
    tailoring


    and yes. removing rather popular recipes from a profession and making bag space much more common can ruin a profession.

    look nice attempt.
    but a bunch is not a real number. so yes 2 or 3 can be a bunch
    look i see you wanna try to be the bigger person here.
    but atleast i never claimed soulshards vanished from your inventory 30 minutes after logging out... Oh yeah new signature idea...
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    then you ran MD ruin


    MD/ruin needed the Succubus to compete with SM/ruin DPS, running with an imp did make the warlock more tank friendly tho as the imp would reduce your agro, with some DPS sacrifice

    MD/Ruin with IMp tho did require the imp to do DPS to stay competitive. this however meant phase shift was not in play. and since a low health imp and AOE did not get along well. any warlock running Blood Pact for the tank would not be using MD/Ruin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Yeah, that probably explains it. We certainly had one very good Warlock in the raid who rarely, if ever, died, but the others tended to die horribly. I dunno I was just healing people and looking horrified.
    also as mentioned most warlocks like to just life tap and expect a healer to heal them up. every warlock in our guild called out when when life taping. and was pretty good about self healing/bandaging which was a really great thing to do after a series of crits for agro management :P

  11. #71
    People like you turned WoW Casual over time with your QQ make WoW easier posts. Let us have our shred of WoW back without you casuals putting your crying sticky fingers on making the game easier for you.

  12. #72
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    Curse was another famous vanilla guild, look at the DPS in this kill. Fucking top warlock on 23rd spot. I found quite a few videos with 1 warlock in top 10 damage (but never above 5th). I don't know what they were doing. But there TONS of videos with no warlocks in top 10 also. I don't buy the argument that locks did good DPS. Most locks being 15th or so at best with a few in the world cracking top 10? Doesn't sound so good to me.


  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Whenever I tested SM/Ruin in raids I would have such huge aggro issues, instead of master demonologist/Ruin, I would have to hold back shadow bolts extremely often and the DPS ended up being no big difference.

    It was a fucking amazing spec and PVP and for smaller groups, of this I am aware, but we're talking raids here only, at least I am.

    Our class leader forced all the warlocks to go MD/ruin and if we didn't spec that we'd be left out.

    Here's a clip of our guild killing Huhuran in AQ40: (dmg meters at 2:55 until end).


    As you can see, our warlocks are very low with me being the top lock at the 13th place. This is where our warlocks were all through BWL, AQ40 and Naxx40. I looked on a bunch of our guilds other videos from EU firsts etc but couldn't see any other videos with the damage meters visible.

    Now I was very well geared, and knew how to play (basically how to shadow bolt spam without over aggroing) and how to not die to mechanics. And still the DPS was so low. So what could I do different? Go SM/Ruin and over aggro? Learn to play better and spam shadow bolt better, really?

    I'm just speaking from my own experience, I haven't mained warlock since vanilla and switched to shaman from BC on onwards.

    Maybe me and the other warlocks in my guild were all braindead and couldn't cast shadow bolt correctly despite being in a top 3 EU guild at the time. Or maybe the class was gimped. I read the warlock class forums daily during those days and can say it was a very unanimous feeling among us back then that the class was gimped as far as raid DPS went. Again I repeat the class was amazing for soloing, PvP and smaller grp content. Also the class complaining on the forums doesn't prove anything but I'm just saying.

    Maybe we had some of the best rogues and mages in the world too, yet again there's a lot of factors to be taken into account. I remember all our warlocks being competent and trying everything to boost our DPS but nothing prevailed. By Naxx time it was just depressing for us.

    However I'll roll lock again in classic and hope to be proven wrong. I do love the class despite all it's shortcomings.

    I think I don't really have anything more to add to the discussion so I'll bow out. Have a good one.
    i love how when i show multiple evidance of warlocks being very high in the charts you claim that "we cant tell if they are dead, and charts didnt work well back then, simply it may be wrong" and you link one video of two what could be undergeared, shit warlocks, at the bottom of the list and think you have now made all those other warlocks who did more then good dps dissapear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Curse was another famous vanilla guild, look at the DPS in this kill. Fucking top warlock on 23rd spot. I found quite a few videos with 1 warlock in top 10 damage (but never above 5th). I don't know what they were doing. But there TONS of videos with no warlocks in top 10 also. I don't buy the argument that locks did good DPS. Most locks being 15th or so at best with a few in the world cracking top 10? Doesn't sound so good to me.

    LOL i love how you link loatheb as example...
    Allmost like charts from loatheb are not totally super skewed...
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  14. #74
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    World first Raggy, no lock in top 10.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nefarian EU first. No lock in top 10.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post


    World first Raggy, no lock in top 10.
    because warlocks required some gear on them and the healers before they could start to dps.
    again you seem to have alot of videos of groups who have bad/undergeared warlocks trying to prove they didnt work
    you cant just show bad warlocks and use that to try and prove the good ones dont exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  16. #76
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    Well it's either valid "evidence" or it isn't yeah? If you want to post links of kills as evidence then there's a metric fuckton of counter evidence.

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    Ok so only the warlocks were undergeared in those raids but all the other DPS were pro geared? And you know that from shaking your magic 8 ball or what? Fuck out of here with your weaksauce arguments.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post



    Nefarian EU first. No lock in top 10.
    btw whats funny there is that is the guild that then had 2 warlocks in its top 10 dps on their kelthuzad kill. allmost like they needed gear on them and their healers to stand a chance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  18. #78
    Deleted
    Even if that's true, which it isn't, should warlocks then spend the whole classic until getting geared from Naxx 40 to be able to crack top 10 in damage?

    AGAIN bro you're against the ropes now, you don't have a single argument going for you.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    To be fair, regarding aggro he does have a point. On Horde side you often had to wand or you'd pull aggro, this was especially a problem in BWL for me. However, it doesn't need fixing. Warlocks were fine in vanilla. We sometimes had BWL raids with 6-7 Warlocks.
    Just get your maintank a thunderfury and it'll be all dandy.

  20. #80
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Well it's either valid "evidence" or it isn't yeah? If you want to post links of kills as evidence then there's a metric fuckton of counter evidence.

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    Ok so only the warlocks were undergeared in those raids but all the other DPS were pro geared? And you know that from shaking your magic 8 ball or what? Fuck out of here with your weaksauce arguments.
    did you not say earlier that warlocks were geared last because of the simple idea that they were worse? im simply using the "fact" you stated to come to the conclusion that they are most likely less geared then the rest of their raid.

    You cant have your shitty geared warlock, well also having your super well geared warlock.

    Warlocks when they were proppperly geared did fine on dps, as i showed.
    but warlocks with a lack of gear did bad, as you showed.



    you cant show me 10,000 lottery tickets that won nothing and say its impossible, when i can show you three that did win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domoda View Post
    Even if that's true, which it isn't, should warlocks then spend the whole classic until getting geared from Naxx 40 to be able to crack top 10 in damage?

    AGAIN bro you're against the ropes now, you don't have a single argument going for you.
    btw oh yeah
    if warlocks were made to EASILY ALLWAYS COMPLETLY NEVER FAIL out dps mages.
    there would NEVER be a reason to bring a mage for anything but food/water and detect magic, cause warlocks last far longer then mages, and are far more tanky.
    they can keep up there, but its hard to keep up with mages and rogues as they were kings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadofall View Post
    MD/ruin needed the Succubus to compete with SM/ruin DPS, running with an imp did make the warlock more tank friendly tho as the imp would reduce your agro, with some DPS sacrifice

    MD/Ruin with IMp tho did require the imp to do DPS to stay competitive. this however meant phase shift was not in play. and since a low health imp and AOE did not get along well. any warlock running Blood Pact for the tank would not be using MD/Ruin

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    also as mentioned most warlocks like to just life tap and expect a healer to heal them up. every warlock in our guild called out when when life taping. and was pretty good about self healing/bandaging which was a really great thing to do after a series of crits for agro management :P
    yeah we were required to life tap then bandage, or lifetap and healing pot during times when healers needed to focus on healing others, but most of the time i had a button that would yell "life tapping" when i was about to life tap spam, so healers could heal me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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