Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Pantalaimon]

"we want vanilla"

but we want class balance , transmog , account mounts , looking for group , name change , server change , dual spec , raid buffs , no buff mats , wow tokens , and new raids


oh wait you got all that.. play the lattest version of the game.. poeple wanted classic for a reason just stop wanting stuff now why not enjoy the old feeling , if you dont like it dont play it?

Except the point of this thread is only changing class balance (yes I know that is still a comparatively big undertaking). You do have a good point that if you don't like it then just don't play it, but what if players wanted to experience the entirety of vanilla (i.e. doing everything as far as content goes) in the spec they enjoy? Sure, you can attempt to do all of the content (including raiding, and 'competitive' bgs) as any spec, but do you think it is going to be pleasant, especially when vanilla purists know that many specs fail at their original intended job in those types of content (e.g. A prot paladin main tanking for most raid encounters or a shadow priest dpsing)?

Some people want to replay vanilla, or just experience most of it the way that it played out, without being compelled to heal when you don't roll healer in retail, or support without actual tanking when you were main or off-tanking in retail.

Despite all of the arguments for/against vanilla/retail purism aside it really should not be surprising why so many players want this one change to happen. You can love vanilla, while also not loving class pigeon-holing.

[Deleted]

Still waiting for how that will be used differently than before.



All they do is do the theorycrafting that people were already doing previously FOR us. If the theorycrafters were good back then (which most were) the sims will just tell us what we already knew.

Not to mention they'll have to be reprogrammed for Vanilla.



Which will have to be re-built for Vanilla, since it's a different client - You wanna pay people to do that?



Won't have much of an effect if any.

Good try though.

You really think people managed to theorycraft the best possible gear, rotation and talents compared to the standard of our simcraft is doing today? Holy moly.
You really don't think people will be rebuilding addons for Vanilla? Are you insane? There will be a huge demand.
You don't think running around with 60 FPS and playing the game smooth as silk will be different than stuttering around with 1-5 FPS in critical situations? Good lord.

I'm sorry but at this point you're just clowning around and it's hard not to brand you a bad troll.

[Manaia]

No, you will not play ret or arcane or disc or many other spec, you will play was we were forced to play, you will find it stupid, and you will, like many other people, stop saying that vanilla was the best.

Wrong. Every raiding guild had at LEAST one disc priest for Divine Spirit. Ironically, it was a "forced to play" spec too only for that utility spell.
Blessing of Kings was also a powerful buff giving 5% more primary stats (Agi, Str, Int, Stam) - when Greater Blessings came out it became significantly easier to manage/maintain too!

With 40 people in the raid, a good amount of slots were utility slots. So while there were useless specs for raiding, Ret and Disc were not two of them.

[Ielenia]

Which will have to be re-built for Vanilla, since it's a different client - You wanna pay people to do that?

I'm pretty sure it won't be a different client. The old, original client is not as optimized to run on today's hardware as the current one is. My bet is that they'll use the same client, only making the necessary changes for vanilla. I could be wrong, but I image, addon-wise, little, if anything, will change, functionality-wise.

[Deleted]

If you start balancing the classes so that all specs are raid viable you'll essentially break the game as it was in vanilla. I could understand perhaps introducing dual-spec for TBC (if Blizzard ever do TBC servers) or reducing the respec fee for vanilla since 50g was quite a lot of gold back then. But if you set a precedent like that, you'll change so many other things along with it that it's not going to resemble vanilla WoW anymore.

To make specs like Feral, Disc, Elemental and Ret viable, Blizzard would need to introduce different tier sets for these classes. I remember the Shaman tier set being all +healing this and +healing that, which was Blizzard's way of saying "you must be Resto to raid or else you won't raid." In TBC this changed since Blizzard acknowledged that forcing hybrids to tank and heal was a flawed system, and they brought out tier sets for each spec. You could DPS as a hybrid, or use more than one of your specs as a pure. Introducing dual spec in TBC wouldn't be nearly as detrimental, since classes had a lot more freedom in how they raided.

If players want to tank or heal in vanilla now, they'll know which classes to roll. If they want to DPS they'll know which classes not to roll. Not everyone is gonna run around with a cookie cutter spec either. Not everyone is going to raid. It wasn't all about raiding back in vanilla. It was a huge part of endgame of course, but you could choose to PvP instead, or just stick to 5 man dungeons or play the AH or whatnot.

Just keep vanilla as it was back then and let the community handle things organically. There will be plenty of people who want to tank or heal, because even though life was much harder as a tank/healer in vanilla (you couldn't solo for shit), you were highly desireable as a player and it was easier for you to do group content. If you want to play a Shadow Priest or an Enhance Shaman or a Boomkin you can, you might just not get as far.

[Kaver]

opening vanilla up again is like taking the harry potter novels and extending the first book in a different direction than the 2nd

vanilla will not change

I get your point, but I don't necessarily agree with this. You're entitled to your opinion.

PS. Many people who want no changes to vanilla still want some of the planned raids (which were never added) to be added in the future. Book no. 2 will still be TBC :P

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

On the surface I agree balancing the specs some would be good, but the issue is you can't do that in a vacuum. You'll need to give specs abilities they don't have in vanilla, like a taunt for prot paladins. Itemization and set bonuses are a mess for many classes. Buffing certain specs to compete could easily cause ripples throughout the meta. The issue becomes how to do you make say prot paladins viable as main raid tanks without overhauling too much?

All you need is proper scaling and small buffs. Paladins are already very strong. They just need more health and some extra passive defense like the talent tree provides in the. Honestly all they need to do to balance this game is use the talent tree from tbc instead of classic. Solves 90 percent of the problems and changes nothing gameplay wise.

[Kaver]

To make specs like Feral, Disc, Elemental and Ret viable, Blizzard would need to introduce different tier sets for these classes.

Fury/Arms warriors did not have a tier set. They were viable.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Wrong. Every raiding guild had at LEAST one disc priest for Divine Spirit. Ironically, it was a "forced to play" spec too only for that utility spell.
Blessing of Kings was also a powerful buff giving 5% more primary stats (Agi, Str, Int, Stam) - when Greater Blessings came out it became significantly easier to manage/maintain too!

With 40 people in the raid, a good amount of slots were utility slots. So while there were useless specs for raiding, Ret and Disc were not two of them.

But you weren't actually disc. You just got the buff from the talent tree. You lose very little to get it. That is a terrible example honestly.

[Accendor]

stop moaning as if this is a major issue.

you can't have classes being useless and not being selected for vanilla content. that is just silly argument to want that the same.

keep all the content the same and just introduce balance to the classes which given the years of exp at attempting this, Blizzard should be able to achieve to some extent.

at least enough of a balance that everything can be cleared assuming you know how to play your class/spec and are geared.


very simple solution and not a reason to be screaming the sky is falling.

no /tenchar

[Thimagryn]

On the surface I agree balancing the specs some would be good, but the issue is you can't do that in a vacuum. You'll need to give specs abilities they don't have in vanilla, like a taunt for prot paladins. Itemization and set bonuses are a mess for many classes. Buffing certain specs to compete could easily cause ripples throughout the meta. The issue becomes how to do you make say prot paladins viable as main raid tanks without overhauling too much?

Overhauls are going to be necessary or else there's no way an intended spec would be viable. That's the inevitability of change.

Just give a Classic+ option and this entire discussion can end. Then we can see how badly the 'ripple effect' of bad balance actually affects Vanilla, and the purists will have to deal with filling spots that are utterly broken and boring.

- - - Updated - - -

Fury/Arms warriors did not have a tier set. They were viable.

Then retune the abilities to scale higher with stats, or use Spirit as an offense modifier of some sort. At some point, Spirit was converted to Hit for casters. Add in +Def through talents or stat conversion for Feral and give taunts out as abilities.

[Manaia]

But you weren't actually disc. You just got the buff from the talent tree. You lose very little to get it. That is a terrible example honestly.

Wait wait wait...so having the 31 point talent isn't disc? What is it? Baby holy? What is "disc" in Vanilla to you? It's not a terrible example just because you think disc is something it's not.

[Ielenia]

One way or another - addons are going to need to be reprogrammed at least a little, and won't be available at launch. At best, they'll be available within days, at worst they'll have to rebuild addons from the ground up and we might be waiting a few weeks.

I doubt it. I'm 100% convinced Blizzard will do a beta-test of the game, and so add-on developers will use the beta client to develop the new addons, just like they do with retail's PTR and beta clients for upcoming expansions.

- - - Updated - - -

Or the intended design will be that they are not viable for the situation you're describing. Which was the intended design in Vanilla, and should be the intended design in Classic.

Was it "intended design"? Or was it unintentional? I don't recall WoW developers ever claiming that, during vanilla, they intentionally designed certain classes and specs to be nonviable like that.

[Kaver]

Or the intended design will be that they are not viable for the situation you're describing. Which was the intended design in Vanilla, and should be the intended design in Classic.

I don't think it was the intended design in 2004 to make Ret, Feral and Shadow bad for raiding.

[Thimagryn]

Or the intended design will be that they are not viable for the situation you're describing. Which was the intended design in Vanilla, and should be the intended design in Classic.

Except we know that wasn't the intended design in vanilla. Classes weren't balanced against each other or within their own intended roles, and everyone simply had to deal with what they had and figure out what works and what doesn't. The lack of balance became the meta. A class dedicated to a role doling out buffs was not intended by design. The developers admitted it as a mistake, but one that is a part of the game.

Similarly, Muta stacking was also an unintended design in original Starcraft, but it was kept and designed around because of the meta. It was not intended design even though it is considered a core part of pro Zerg gameplay.

You aren't wrong in saying this was the way Classic gameplay should stay, but it is not because this is 'intended design'. It's something Blizzard devs have talked about considering changed, but they also recognize that the (purists of the) community has been vocal in not wanting any change.

I'd be fine with separating Classic and Classic+ options for whoever wants it. But start with Classic. If and when the demand for Classic+ has continued after Classic is existing and functional, Classic+ can be made, but we should NOT start with Classic+.

What's the point of staggering? You'd only piss off anyone who invests time and effort in playing an underpowered class and having them reroll and start fresh on a new server. Vocal demand exists now, there's no point in gauging it after people are paying and investing time in their characters.

If we don't start with Classic+, then players will acknowledge Blizzard's decision as not happening. Adding Classic+ later on causes major problems with the community without addressing them at the start, like adding PVP server options AFTER getting everyone to commit to PVE servers only. This is literally forcing people to reroll characters and gameplay experiences they're already investing time into. This would have devastating effects mid-way into Classic too since a large portion of Hybrid Support players are incentivized to leave (for the sake of better class balance), which will heavily impact the Classic guilds that are already starting or in the middle of raiding. Classic Support players who stay with their guilds would also feel stuck if there was no option to move the entire guild over to Classic+, and will question Blizzard's decisions to implement them so late after everyone's committed to playing.

Nobody likes a bait and switch. If there are 'hopes of adding it in the future', then Hybrid players will hesitate knowing Classic+ is looming over the horizon, which impacts the data for 'successful Vanilla'. Either you do Classic+ or you don't at all.

[Swalload]

Wrong. Every raiding guild had at LEAST one disc priest for Divine Spirit. Ironically, it was a "forced to play" spec too only for that utility spell.
Blessing of Kings was also a powerful buff giving 5% more primary stats (Agi, Str, Int, Stam) - when Greater Blessings came out it became significantly easier to manage/maintain too!

With 40 people in the raid, a good amount of slots were utility slots. So while there were useless specs for raiding, Ret and Disc were not two of them.

It was just a holy priest with points up to spirit buff, it didn't play any differently than holy priest, so it was a holy priest. Stop being wrong and calling people who are right wrong, it's pointless.

Dunno what you're on about with kings, of course there was always at least one pally who spec'ed into it, he was still holy tho, never ret. Never. Ret. Unless we're talking about clown guilds who don't give a shit and are basically pugs with a bonus green chat? Then maybe, yeah, I don't know why we should care about what is meaningless.

[Youn]

But, they did in patch 2.0.... So, yeah, there is hindsight is 20/20. The game wasn't perfect back then, and the devs understood it. There wasn't major changes every expansion because the game was perfect and they needed to add flaws.

[Heladys]

you are an example of the problem. the discussion for what is and what is not wanted can not even be had.

you have a either with me or against me attitude. ashame because in the end vanilla servers will suffer. well done.

You wanted vanilla. Play vanilla.

[Manaia]

It was just a holy priest with points up to spirit buff, it didn't play any differently than holy priest, so it was a holy priest. Stop being wrong and calling people who are right wrong, it's pointless.

Dunno what you're on about with kings, of course there was always at least one pally who spec'ed into it, he was still holy tho, never ret. Never. Ret. Unless we're talking about clown guilds who don't give a shit and are basically pugs with a bonus green chat? Then maybe, yeah, I don't know why we should care about what is meaningless.

I'll ask you what I asked the other guy - what was a "disc" priest then? A disc priest was a second healing spec, so yeah, shocker...they healed.

Edit: The spirit buff, at the time of the patch(es) I'm referring to, was the bottom of the talent tree.

[Mindark]

It was just a holy priest with points up to spirit buff, it didn't play any differently than holy priest, so it was a holy priest. Stop being wrong and calling people who are right wrong, it's pointless.

By that reasoning, holy priest is just disc priest up to their 31 point talent, it didn't play any differently than disc priest, so it was a disc priest. Stop being wrong and calling people who are right wrong, it's pointless.

They were just called "priest." What, in your opinion, was a disc priest in vanilla? Someone who just played priest wrong?

We should balance the classes

I don't think classes should be rebalanced because it will break the game. What would we balance the classes against? Solo? 5 man? Raid groups? Which debuffs the target has? Fully geared? Fully enchanted? There would be no such thing as "balance" because of all the utility and buffs that are in the game. Too many things are looked at from an individual meter perspective.