Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Zulkhan]

''Citizens of Gilneas! I have given you ample opportunities to surrender, but you have stubbornly refused! Know that today, your entire kingdom and your ancient heritage will end! Death itself has come to claim the home of the Giln- wait what is that? A wall and a gate!? Belay that order my minions, there is nothing we can do here"

I can see a panicking Scourge army running around like chickens screaming "OMG IS THAT A WALL? LIKE, AN ACTUAL WALL? OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT"

[Arrashi]

I can see a panicking Scourge army running around like chickens screaming "OMG IS THAT A WALL? LIKE, AN ACTUAL WALL? OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT"

Now imagine same scourge but wearing sombreros, ponchos and having very stereotypical mustache.

[Fyersing]

It never was an awesome Alliance and never will be it was an alliance of convenience, nothing more and nothing less. With the price paid for the assistance of the humans, being incredibly steep, it was a smart move of the humans but it did not help to foster good relations, quite the opposite.

It was after 16.000 years the arcane knowledge they got from the elves, which allowed one of the oldest races on the planet to finally create a noteworthy civilization.

I've always found it interesting how people witness the relationship between Legolas and Aragorn and imagine that such comradery between humans and elves is common -- it's not. The relationship between humans and elves, in Middle Earth, could probably be described as a 'civilized rivalry'. They aren't friends -- they are competitors. That they attempt to out-maneuver one another without genocidal intent is only because of a shared respect for one another.

The relationship on Azeroth used to be the same, more-or-less, until the Scourge razed Quel'thalas. Those who survived eventually split into two camps, around a multitude of issues, with the predominating faction (Blood Elves) very specifically citing specific abuses and a lack of substance in their dealings with the humans (Alliance) as a central issue. It's likely that, like their relationship in Middle Earth, the humans and elves of Azeroth aren't friends -- they are competitors.

[Koryn123]

a lot of those forsaken wouldn't be forsaken??? this is pure speculation. because gilneas could stop arthas right? no way in hell. if gilneas had opened the gates to go to war against the scourge it would be a matter of days for arthas to transform gilneas into another scourge kingdom. gilneas was lucky that arthas had no interest in it otherwise it was doomed.
and second genn closed his kingdom in a time of peace and he had every right to since he is a king of his own kingdom.....and when the scourge came they were already in civil war and the worgen curse later

If Arthas had remained in Lordaeron as its king without the Lich King weakening so he needed Arthas to leave, and likely a third of the Scourge regained their senses and became the Forsaken, Arthas would no doubt have reached Gilneas eventually.

The epicenter of the Scourge was the Eastern Plaguelands, but Arthas had dispatched most of the Scourge there, it seemed. Though the Cult of the Damned continued to work while he was in Northrend hunting Mal'ganis. When he came back, the Eastern Plaguelands was plagued, and the Western Plaguelands were getting there too. Then he killed Terenas and plagued Capital City, and Tirisfal Glades began to be plagued, and got a substantial dose of it. He didn't get much of Silverpine by the time he was called to the Frozen Throne by Ner'zhul, but there are small pockets of Scourge. But most of Silverpine looks relatively nice still. It's definitely the least-plagued of the five Scourged areas (Tirisfal, Silverpine, EPL, WPL, and the Ghostlands).

And once Arthas left, Kel'thuzad took over management of the Scourge in Lordaeron, retreating to the EPL as the Scourge's main territory, while Tirisfal Glades and Silverpine were mostly taken by the Forsaken. And them focusing on fighting the Scourge for revenge, helping the Horde wherever they had to, and dealing with the Scarlet Crusade and any Alliance in the area, they had no time or desire to make a pass at Gilneas who were keeping to themselves. Why make another very powerful enemy that could make things very difficult for them in Hillsbrad, then taking Shadowfang Keep as a forward stronghold from which to both defend their border, and strike out at the Forsaken?

So yeah, Gilneas not getting Scourged is due to Illidan's ritual with the Eye of Sargeras making a crack in the Frozen Throne, causing Arthas to go to Northrend, the Scourge to be fragmented due to Ner'zhul's hold on some of them weakening, and the fragment of Scourge that became Forsaken held onto Tirisfal Glades and Silverpine in the southwest having no interest in fighting Gilneas, while the actual Scourge moved back to the east, so Gilneas was far from their radar at that moment.

There's also the matter of the dreadlords likely taking control of any other Scourge remaining in the area who didn't become Forsaken, and using any Legion demons or just their own powers to help take that area for the group that would become the Forsaken after the dreadlords were killed.

The Scourge was interrupted in their total infestation of the Lordaeron continent by Illidan's ritual, causing them to be ousted from any proximity where they'd have Gilneas as a priority.


But, there is also the matter of the Worgen curse that Genn caused by having Arugal summon Worgen from the Emerald Dream. It says that they made short work of the Scourge in the area, but then turned on the Gilneans, thus spreading the curse to the human population there. So that also helped with the relatively minor Scourge numbers there, but I doubt it would have kept Arthas from it had he marched on Silverpine and Gilneas himself with the full might of the Scourge at his back, like he did Quel'thalas and Dalaran.

[cmats4020]

I just don't understand how after all these years, the High elves were always unplayable because there were too few of them. But in order for the Void elves and High elves to break even population-wise, these Void elves would have to equal 13.3%-13.4% of the remaining Blood elven population. A) You'd have to be incredibly stupid to exile that many of your own people during a major war with a front right outside your kingdom, and B) that's not an "elite, crack-squad" of Blood elves; that's a city.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I just don't understand how after all these years, the High elves were always unplayable because there were too few of them. But in order for the Void elves and High elves to break even population-wise, these Void elves would have to equal 13.3%-13.4% of the remaining Blood elven population. A) You'd have to be incredibly stupid to exile that many of your own people during a major war with a front right outside your kingdom, and B) that's not an "elite, crack-squad" of Blood elves; that's a city.

One, the allied races apparently don't follow the same lore requirements or whatever a crack elite squad is obviously not 13% of your race, and two, blizzard made it painfully obvious they don't want to do playable high elves. From a gameplay standpoint they are the same race, and have been playable for ten years. from a lore standpoint they offer nothing other than the ruined, broken dream of what High elves once were, (because high elves now sure as hell aren't the proud/ nobel stock they used to be.) and what blood elves are rapidly if not already are returning to the old ways of Quel'thalas to further make their differences microscopic hell if anything the blood elves now are more aligned with the light/ what Quel'thalas used to be than the High elven exiles ever wer. The ones that still call themselves high elves are doomed to dilute their blood into humans or just go extinct quicker and not reproduce at all.


This is why Blizzard made Void elves, to give the dumb model to the Alliance, but making it different enough that they didn't get called lazy for switching an eye color around and shouting "behold, a new race." Especially when that "new" race was the most popular Horde side. They intentionally made void elves uglier than blood elves for that reason.

[Doffen]

I've always found it interesting how people witness the relationship between Legolas and Aragorn and imagine that such comradery between humans and elves is common -- it's not. The relationship between humans and elves, in Middle Earth, could probably be described as a 'civilized rivalry'. They aren't friends -- they are competitors. That they attempt to out-maneuver one another without genocidal intent is only because of a shared respect for one another.

The relationship on Azeroth used to be the same, more-or-less, until the Scourge razed Quel'thalas. Those who survived eventually split into two camps, around a multitude of issues, with the predominating faction (Blood Elves) very specifically citing specific abuses and a lack of substance in their dealings with the humans (Alliance) as a central issue. It's likely that, like their relationship in Middle Earth, the humans and elves of Azeroth aren't friends -- they are competitors.

Well I can't speak for others, but I don't take whatever happens in a totally different world to explain what happens in WoW.

Sure, I don't say you are wrong, in most Elven/Human worlds/stories the Elves are usually those who look down at lesser races.

While on this, I can't see spesifics that confirms what you and combat are writing about this matter. I am genuinly curious about this, because I can't find anything else than the High Elves and Humans were fighting together. Its more the Elves that "mistreat" the humans, not the other way around.

I like lore, and if you got some links on what actually happened in all those years they were allied I would like to read it

[Koryn123]

Well I can't speak for others, but I don't take whatever happens in a totally different world to explain what happens in WoW.

Sure, I don't say you are wrong, in most Elven/Human worlds/stories the Elves are usually those who look down at lesser races.

While on this, I can't see spesifics that confirms what you and combat are writing about this matter. I am genuinly curious about this, because I can't find anything else than the High Elves and Humans were fighting together. Its more the Elves that "mistreat" the humans, not the other way around.

I like lore, and if you got some links on what actually happened in all those years they were allied I would like to read it

It's likely construed from the elves' treatment of the humans in the Second War. Alleria looked down on Turalyon, pretty much hated him until she was sad that her brother died and had a one-night stand with him, then hated him until the end of Beyond the Dark Portal (so Arator is very hard to fit in, given his in-game history he tells, which conflicts with the events of the novelization of the Second War), and Anasterian didn't want to help them. He seemed big on the humans after the Troll Wars when he swore that debt to Arathor's bloodline or something, but later I guess he regretted it.

It's really only the high elves living in Dalaran who liked humans well enough to be best buddies.

Sylvanas, Alleria, and Vereesa are the oddballs who ended up liking humans enough to breed with them (Sylvanas did it with Nathanos, obviously, which I hate). Their parents would probably be ashamed of them. That is not standard among elves, as they do look down on humans. Kael'thas ordered Sylvanas to remove Nathanos from the Farstriders, but she didn't obey. So I guess Kael'thas was friendly enough with humans in Dalaran, but when it came to humans in his own country and its ranks, he didn't want that. Understandable. He probably didn't want elves in human territory outside Dalaran, or an elf in the Lordaeron military either.

But yeah, elves are generally mistrusted among humans (not Night Elves, THEY'RE the ones who are best buddies with humans), and humans are generally seen as animals by high/blood elves (non-Silver Covenant high elves, but that's likely changed since the Schism when any non-Silver Covenant high elves had no other option but to hang around humans and other Alliance races when they ignored Kael'thas' command for his people to return to Quel'thalas), hence the taboo on breeding and having half-breed ginger elf demonspawn who need to die before they become another Knaak nuisance.


But whoever writes the lore to do with elves seems to be an elf themselves, and has a cuckolding fetish, so they always write female elves falling for male humans, and refusing to show any elf-elf romance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It's likely construed from the elves' treatment of the humans in the Second War. Alleria looked down on Turalyon, pretty much hated him until she was sad that her brother died and had a one-night stand with him, then hated him until the end of Beyond the Dark Portal (so Arator is very hard to fit in, given his in-game history he tells, which conflicts with the events of the novelization of the Second War), and Anasterian didn't want to help them. He seemed big on the humans after the Troll Wars when he swore that debt to Arathor's bloodline or something, but later I guess he regretted it.

It's really only the high elves living in Dalaran who liked humans well enough to be best buddies.

Sylvanas, Alleria, and Vereesa are the oddballs who ended up liking humans enough to breed with them (Sylvanas did it with Nathanos, obviously, which I hate). Their parents would probably be ashamed of them. That is not standard among elves, as they do look down on humans. Kael'thas ordered Sylvanas to remove Nathanos from the Farstriders, but she didn't obey. So I guess Kael'thas was friendly enough with humans in Dalaran, but when it came to humans in his own country and its ranks, he didn't want that. Understandable. He probably didn't want elves in human territory outside Dalaran, or an elf in the Lordaeron military either.

But yeah, elves are generally mistrusted among humans (not Night Elves, THEY'RE the ones who are best buddies with humans), and humans are generally seen as animals by high/blood elves (non-Silver Covenant high elves, but that's likely changed since the Schism when any non-Silver Covenant high elves had no other option but to hang around humans and other Alliance races when they ignored Kael'thas' command for his people to return to Quel'thalas), hence the taboo on breeding and having half-breed ginger elf demonspawn who need to die before they become another Knaak nuisance.


But whoever writes the lore to do with elves seems to be an elf themselves, and has a cuckolding fetish, so they always write female elves falling for male humans, and refusing to show any elf-elf romance.

The elves also mistreated Kalec in the Sunwell Manga when they thought he was a half elf, and only apologized when they learned he was a dragon. There was one writer who wrote elf/elf romance, and he doesn't work for blizzard anymore. So you must enjoy your cliched paper deep female elf falling in love with cliched goody two shoes human.

Atleast Nathanos and Sylvanas are somewhat interesting, despite the sickening human x elf romance it is made ok through the tragedy of undeath + the fact that they never made any god damn half elves.

[Doffen]

It's likely construed from the elves' treatment of the humans in the Second War. Alleria looked down on Turalyon, pretty much hated him until she was sad that her brother died and had a one-night stand with him, then hated him until the end of Beyond the Dark Portal (so Arator is very hard to fit in, given his in-game history he tells, which conflicts with the events of the novelization of the Second War), and Anasterian didn't want to help them. He seemed big on the humans after the Troll Wars when he swore that debt to Arathor's bloodline or something, but later I guess he regretted it.

It's really only the high elves living in Dalaran who liked humans well enough to be best buddies.

Sylvanas, Alleria, and Vereesa are the oddballs who ended up liking humans enough to breed with them (Sylvanas did it with Nathanos, obviously, which I hate). Their parents would probably be ashamed of them. That is not standard among elves, as they do look down on humans. Kael'thas ordered Sylvanas to remove Nathanos from the Farstriders, but she didn't obey. So I guess Kael'thas was friendly enough with humans in Dalaran, but when it came to humans in his own country and its ranks, he didn't want that. Understandable. He probably didn't want elves in human territory outside Dalaran, or an elf in the Lordaeron military either.

But yeah, elves are generally mistrusted among humans (not Night Elves, THEY'RE the ones who are best buddies with humans), and humans are generally seen as animals by high/blood elves (non-Silver Covenant high elves, but that's likely changed since the Schism when any non-Silver Covenant high elves had no other option but to hang around humans and other Alliance races when they ignored Kael'thas' command for his people to return to Quel'thalas), hence the taboo on breeding and having half-breed ginger elf demonspawn who need to die before they become another Knaak nuisance.


But whoever writes the lore to do with elves seems to be an elf themselves, and has a cuckolding fetish, so they always write female elves falling for male humans, and refusing to show any elf-elf romance.

Thanks for good read

Curious thing about the Night Elf vs High Elf too, those doesn't really like each other, but in TFT Tyrande had no problem helping Kael'thas and the Blood Elves and Kael'thas looked at it as a great honor to get help from the Night Elves.

Very selective on who they like and don't like, for sure

[Friendlyimmolation]

Thanks for good read

Curious thing about the Night Elf vs High Elf too, those doesn't really like each other, but in TFT Tyrande had no problem helping Kael'thas and the Blood Elves and Kael'thas looked at it as a great honor to get help from the Night Elves.

Very selective on who they like and don't like, for sure

Night elves began to hate the blood elves/ high elves once they learned they were addicted to magic if I recall correctly, basically they saw it as a weakness, a fall back to when the Highborne of old refused to give up magic and were forced to leave the night elves because of it.

[Koryn123]

The elves also mistreated Kalec in the Sunwell Manga when they thought he was a half elf, and only apologized when they learned he was a dragon. There was one writer who wrote elf/elf romance, and he doesn't work for blizzard anymore. So you must enjoy your cliched paper deep female elf falling in love with cliched goody two shoes human.

Atleast Nathanos and Sylvanas are somewhat interesting, despite the sickening human x elf romance it is made ok through the tragedy of undeath + the fact that they never made any god damn half elves.

That's right, I loved that scene. I love the elves being all haughty, and Jae-Hwan Kim's art is awesome. Love his style in that, I've got the super duper trilogy in one big book. The less censored version

We need more xenophobia in WoW. People being dicks because of their race (not skin color, species-race).

[Friendlyimmolation]

That's right, I loved that scene. I love the elves being all haughty, and Jae-Hwan Kim's art is awesome. Love his style in that, I've got the super duper trilogy in one big book. The less censored version

Didn't even realize it came in one big book, perhaps I'll buy it some time.

[Koryn123]

Didn't even realize it came in one big book, perhaps I'll buy it some time.

Yup, it has a few-page prologue comic in it where Dath'remar creates the Sunwell and the elves become high elves immediately (which is apparently non-canon, so pretend they were all white high elves throughout the whole prequel comic).

And it has some concept art of character designs at the end.

https://www.amazon.com/WarCraft-Sunw.../dp/142780690X

[Techno-Druid]

The elves also mistreated Kalec in the Sunwell Manga when they thought he was a half elf, and only apologized when they learned he was a dragon. There was one writer who wrote elf/elf romance, and he doesn't work for blizzard anymore. So you must enjoy your cliched paper deep female elf falling in love with cliched goody two shoes human.

Atleast Nathanos and Sylvanas are somewhat interesting, despite the sickening human x elf romance it is made ok through the tragedy of undeath + the fact that they never made any god damn half elves.

As most of you guys know, I don't mind half-elves, but I'm dissapointed that aside from Alodi who was really only the protagonist in one manga, there haven't been any well thought out half-elf characters.

I know I mention one of my characters often when there's any discussion about half-elves, but I roleplayed a half-elf for sometime. Essentially he was born of...well... *cough* non-consensual union between a human and a pretty affluent blood elf. His mother, refusing to kill him was kicked out of her home and was pretty much excommunicated from her father and wider quel'dorei society. Then his mother died, the Scourge attacked, he fled and eventually ended up in Khaz Modan, then going to Stormwind where he basically lived in isolation.

Too bad most human and helf roleplayers were pretty cool with him being around...

[Doffen]

Night elves began to hate the blood elves/ high elves once they learned they were addicted to magic if I recall correctly, basically they saw it as a weakness, a fall back to when the Highborne of old refused to give up magic and were forced to leave the night elves because of it.

Yeah it is mostly from when Darth'remar didnt want to leave the Arcane magic after the sundering so the High Elves left Kalimdor. I guess in a situation of dire need, even Tyrande couldn't let it pass and decided to help them(Kael'thas).

Darth'remar did help her escape during the war of the ancient so helping his great great(?) grandson was maybe a way to honor him despite their differences from the old days.

[Koryn123]

As most of you guys know, I don't mind half-elves, but I'm dissapointed that aside from Alodi who was really only the protagonist in one manga, there haven't been any well thought out half-elf characters.

I know I mention one of my characters often when there's any discussion about half-elves, but I roleplayed a half-elf for sometime. Essentially he was born of...well... *cough* non-consensual union between a human and a pretty affluent blood elf. His mother, refusing to kill him was kicked out of her home and was pretty much excommunicated from her father and wider quel'dorei society. Then his mother died, the Scourge attacked, he fled and eventually ended up in Khaz Modan, then going to Stormwind where he basically lived in isolation.

Too bad most human and helf roleplayers were pretty cool with him being around...

And my Scarlet Crusade priestess doesn't mind Night Elves because all my friends RP night elves.

But I would expect someone who RPs as a high elf who's basically sworn off their kin and country to live off human charity to have their character not mind half-breeds. They kind of have to, if their character ever intends on having children, ever. Their prospects are rather limited.

[Friendlyimmolation]

As most of you guys know, I don't mind half-elves, but I'm dissapointed that aside from Alodi who was really only the protagonist in one manga, there haven't been any well thought out half-elf characters.

I know I mention one of my characters often when there's any discussion about half-elves, but I roleplayed a half-elf for sometime. Essentially he was born of...well... *cough* non-consensual union between a human and a pretty affluent blood elf. His mother, refusing to kill him was kicked out of her home and was pretty much excommunicated from her father and wider quel'dorei society. Then his mother died, the Scourge attacked, he fled and eventually ended up in Khaz Modan, then going to Stormwind where he basically lived in isolation.

Too bad most human and helf roleplayers were pretty cool with him being around...

I don't mind half elves written in the way you speak, because it's more realistic based on everything we know about how the majority of elves view humans. the golden special snowflake children of destiny that blizzard created are what truly brought my hatred of 99.5% of half elves into being.

[Koryn123]

Y'know, if it weren't always female elf with male human, I don't think I'd mind all this so much. Male elf with female human isn't something that's been done, to my knowledge, in any major fantasy franchise. And it would make much more sense in this case than in others for the female to tag along with the male to wherever he lives, since all the magical wonders and elegance and beauty and extravagance of Quel'thalas would be dazzling to the average human. In others' cases, the females basically gave up their families and homelands to go be arm candy in a significantly crappier society whose people live way shorter lives, like a blink of an eye to an elf, to have children that they will have to bury someday. And I highly doubt there's any poverty or starvation in Quel'thalas (excluding the aftermath of the Scourge attack).

I would hate to outlive my children, by like 6 times their lifespan, at the very least.

I dunno if it's canon or not, but I'm under the impression that high/blood elves can live beyond 3,000 years, and half-elves would likely only be around 500-ish. A significant factor of increase from the standard very healthy human lifespan of 80 to 100 years at the highest if they're lucky, but around the same factor of decrease from a standard very healthy elven lifespan. I consider it likely that most elves could live the same lifespan as Anasterian because there's really no environmental difference among the elves. All of Quel'thalas (until you get to Thalassian Pass, which is snowy like any mountain) is bathed in an eternal summer/autumn mix, that looks very warm. And most everyone seems to live in extreme comfort. At the very least, the Sunwell saves them all from disease and any elements (even though Quel'thalas is warm). You see some folks lower on the totem pole in Quel'thalas like laborers, and at least one guy passed out drunk outside a tavern in Murder Row in Silvermoon. But no disease due to the Sunwell (besides those based in magic like the undead plague).

Vereesa had better hope she dies in battle sometime soon, or she'll be in for a lot of heartbreak when her sons are dead. She could have some kind of bond with her grandkids (1/4 elves), but I bet their lifespans would be even shorter (assuming her descendants all marry humans), like 200 years. And her great-grandkids (1/8 elves) would live 120 years, and by her great-great-grandkids (1/16 elves), when she still has over a thousand years to live, they're probably back to their normal human lifespan, pretty much all signs of elven heritage gone. And you have a bond with your grandkids and great-grandkids, but by great-great-grandkids, I dunno.

[Obelisk Kai]

I just don't understand how after all these years, the High elves were always unplayable because there were too few of them. But in order for the Void elves and High elves to break even population-wise, these Void elves would have to equal 13.3%-13.4% of the remaining Blood elven population. A) You'd have to be incredibly stupid to exile that many of your own people during a major war with a front right outside your kingdom, and B) that's not an "elite, crack-squad" of Blood elves; that's a city.

Well we did tell you years ago that the only way the Alliance would get Thalassian Elves would be if Blizzard did something to differentiate the group from normal High/Blood Elves. To be honest I never thought they would actually go and do it but here we are.

As for the population issue, Blizzard said that and those opposed to playable High Elves ran with it. Caydiem said it in the blue post in 2004. Ion basically said the same thing regarding High Elves in his interview with Jessie Cox at Blizzcon. It appears that from Blizzard's perspective, population isn't really the issue. Instead, it is the consequences of that lack of population;assimilation into their host human cultures because they don't have the numbers to maintain a viable population of their own.

People mention the Silver Covenant, but the Silver Covenant is really a paramilitary force of the Kirin Tor, entirely resident in Dalaran and they simply lack the numbers to maintain a viable, distinctive civilization.

The Void Elves however are an allied race, free from the constraints of being a 'normal' race and their distinctiveness comes not from their 'civilization' but from what they did to themselves in imbuing themselves with void magic.

In terms of population, there is no way they constitute that many people. In fact, the hints we have suggest that the Void Elves are (and for people who demanded playable Silver Covenant High Elves, this is the height of irony) going to be the Sunreavers. Like the Silver Covenant, the Sunreavers are a small paramilitary force who in no way constitute that big a chunk of the population of Silvermoon. If they, as hinted, go too far with their experiments with void magic, I can easily see them being kicked out.

And IF it is the Sunreavers who leave the Horde to join the Alliance because of their corruption, the possibility exists that the Blood Elves will be compensated with a relatively small but welcome influx of their own...