Are Horde players satisfied with their racial leaders and their (lack) of evolution?

[Domcho]

Cairne's death was stupid. He received no development since the beginning of Classic WoW. At least Baine should now be given story time. Vol'jin died to make room for Sylvanas... incredibly stupid story writing. Could've had story time for both. Rokhan is nowhere to be seen except some occasional appearances. Same with Rexxar. Gallywix should be replaced with Gazlowe and Ji Firepaw should be replaced with Chen. And Thrall must finally come back, as the Thrall from WC3.

2 very important characters were killed without much development - Cairne and Vol'jin.
4 very important characters have been in the shadows - Rexxar, Rokhan, Gazlowe, Nazgrel.
1 very important character is in the wrong place - Chen.

As a Horde fan, this is my problem. Killing characters is a one way ticket. Since you can't bring Cairne and Vol'jin back, give them some story time as spirits (Vol'jin, at least, is getting some in BFA). Develop their replacements - Baine and Rokhan.

[cparle87]

I think no one can deny there has been next to no character development for the 'side' characters. Seeing Baine, Saurfang and Gallywix doing nothing is suffering, but having Vol'jin do absolutely nothing while being a Warchief is just nuts.

It's been like that from day one. The only quests Thrall did were 10ish quests involving Ragefire Chasm, then some max level ones about Moira Thaurissan.

[Maljinwo]

Since you can't bring Cairne and Vol'jin back, give them some story time as spirits (Vol'jin, at least, is getting some in BFA). Develop their replacements - Baine and Rokhan.

Vol'jin Kenobi would just be insulting.

I do not think the power of humans extends everywhere, the dwarves needed the help of varyan to defeat the ice troll in MoP

They didn't "need" Varian. They just thought poorly of the other clans and refused to send troops.
That and because Varian was such a great tactician that he could teach a 10k year old night elf sentinel commander how to battle

[Jastall]

I cannot get over the fact that this boy king is the new leader of the Alliance, which already consist of legendary ancient beings such as Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion, and to a minor extent the dwarven council. It just feels so weird and forced.

A perfect example, yeah. Varian being Blue Warchi- High King was already a stretch but at least he had proven himself somewhat at this point. Anduin is literally a teenager being put in charge of beings that are 10 000 or even 25 000+ years old. Like, I know Humans are Special but this is pushing the boundaries of what is believable. Anduin's inexperience was an opportunity to have someone else be High King (maybe someone whose character isn't butchered by going to war) and relegate the human leader to a more supporting role for a while.

[Deleted]

I think it sucks that we now only have one option for Warchief, even though she doesnt really want to do it, because no other leader has had any significant development,well, ever.

[Concequence]

Well BfA ... Zul'Jin will be back... possibly as a Loa, he will evolve, Death was his most important character development moment.

Sylvannas is clearly going to go absolutely batshit war mode insane. Baine is going to at some point lose it. With Azeroth getting corrupt slowly, I would not put it past Blizzard to corrupt him. Nature is going to get weird soon. We're burning down a freeking world tree. things are going to get crazy. Gallywix... or other Goblins will play a part, we are going back into the oceans. Pirates. What happened to the Goblin home island, its out there, things will happen. Thrall... needs to do some shit, ever since he struck down Garrosh, he sort of has not been a character in the story. I really would like to see development on the Lich King side of things. I feel like slowly he is losing control... that's going to come back into play soon, we may need to "stop" him... That could be fun. There is a lot of story to be had in BfA

[Al Gorefiend]

Well BfA ... Zul'Jin will be back... possibly as a Loa, he will evolve, Death was his most important character development moment.

Sylvannas is clearly going to go absolutely batshit war mode insane. Baine is going to at some point lose it. With Azeroth getting corrupt slowly, I would not put it past Blizzard to corrupt him. Nature is going to get weird soon. We're burning down a freeking world tree. things are going to get crazy. Gallywix... or other Goblins will play a part, we are going back into the oceans. Pirates. What happened to the Goblin home island, its out there, things will happen. Thrall... needs to do some shit, ever since he struck down Garrosh, he sort of has not been a character in the story. I really would like to see development on the Lich King side of things. I feel like slowly he is losing control... that's going to come back into play soon, we may need to "stop" him... That could be fun. There is a lot of story to be had in BfA

Zul'jin has been dead since burning crusade.

[Koryn123]

Would actually prefer Zul'jin come back to lead the trolls to glory, instead of Vol'jin.

[Arrashi]

Zul'jin has been dead since burning crusade.

Its whatever'jin, they are all the same for people who aren't troll fans.

[Maljinwo]

Its whatever'jin, they are all the same for people who aren't troll fans.

They are going to be confused when they realize Rastakhan doesn't have a 'jin at the end

[Arrashi]

They are going to be confused when they realize Rastakhan doesn't have a 'jin at the end

He will probably die, and be replaced by ultimate troll - jin'jin.

[Maljinwo]

He will probably die, and be replaced by ultimate troll - jin'jin.

His daugther will take the mantle of jin'jin after the expansion ends

[Arrashi]

His daugther will take the mantle of jin'jin after the expansion ends

And then give birth to jin'jin'jin.

[Deleted]

Reading through this thread makes me realize just how bad the lore is suffering from being told in an MMO.

If Warcraft would have been continued as a singleplayer franchise, I'm sure modern Alliance and Horde would look completely different.

There are so many characters that don't get nearly as much screen time as they deserve. Every race is boiling down to one representative, with the rest of the people being nameless figures.

It has nothing to do with it being an MMO, Blizzard is just shit at writing. They can do tons of character development by allowing the player to talk to NPC's and ask them questions, which isn't optimal, but it requires no work besides them writing some actual lore. For example being able to ask Eitrigg about Tirion and his death and so forth would go a long way.

Then there are tons of ways to have characters interact with eachother more, like all the Major Npc's that were on the broken shore in 7.2 could be less static and talk to eachother, this doesn't even have to be voice acted. There literally are 100s of situations where they could have added character development, but they just don't.


We shouldn't blame the MMORPG genre when they aren't even trying. IF they actually try and it's shit, then we can see if the genre has anything to do with it, until then, Blizzard does not have an excuse for their mediocrity.

[Phunkle]

It has nothing to do with it being an MMO, Blizzard is just shit at writing. They can do tons of character development by allowing the player to talk to NPC's and ask them questions, which isn't optimal, but it requires no work besides them writing some actual lore. For example being able to ask Eitrigg about Tirion and his death and so forth would go a long way.

Then there are tons of ways to have characters interact with eachother more, like all the Major Npc's that were on the broken shore in 7.2 could be less static and talk to eachother, this doesn't even have to be voice acted. There literally are 100s of situations where they could have added character development, but they just don't.


We shouldn't blame the MMORPG genre when they aren't even trying. IF they actually try and it's shit, then we can see if the genre has anything to do with it, until then, Blizzard does not have an excuse for their mediocrity.

You did not get the point. At all.

Whether or not the writing is good was not what I was getting at.
Simply saying "It has nothing to do with being an MMO" also just won't do, because clearly it does.

Adding a few lines to some characters won't help the fact that there are things that simply cannot happen in this game - for example a clear victory of one faction over the other - or even dissolving the factions all together. Or adding a third one - This goes on and on.

[Deleted]

You did not get the point. At all.

Whether or not the writing is good was not what I was getting at.
Simply saying "It has nothing to do with being an MMO" also just won't do, because clearly it does.

Adding a few lines to some characters won't help the fact that there are things that simply cannot happen in this game - for example a clear victory of one faction over the other - or even dissolving the factions all together. Or adding a third one - This goes on and on.

But you can still write a coherent story without dissolving any of the main factions or having major victories. And even if we look at real life history, it's very common for there being no clear victor between equally strong factions, let stand one being dissolved. So it certainly is possible to write good stories with the restrictions an MMO brings.

[Mehrunes]

And I don't agree with people hating on character development we've gotten. Blizzard isn't that bad of a storyteller at all. People just cope with it poorly when characters don't act the same way that they would, or that they would like them to. And I think some folks don't enjoy that the world and characters they know they know keep advancing and changing. Me, I love that.

Literally wat. Aside from Sylvanas and Thrall, which Horde leaders changed or advanced? Because even for those two, those changes weren't that big. For Thrall it was getting depowered both as a Shaman and in political sense and for Sylvanas it was the change in what drives her. Neither changed how they actually behave because of that. And the rest? Baine is still the shitty shadow of his father that lacks anything resembling a spine, Lor'themar is still defined by "Blood Elves above all else" and "I hate the leadership role even though I'm good at it". Vol'jin was all about "da Horde be a family of bruddamons" mixed with stark incompetence till his dying breath. Gallywix likes money. Ji maybe exists. That's about it.

And secondary characters? Saurfang is all about the Horde and honor. Nathanos is loyal to Sylvanas. All secondary Blood Elf leaders other than Aethas share Lor'themar's "Blood Elf above all" mentality, with Rommath hating the Kirin'Tor, Halduron not having anything else. Aethas on the other likes to suck Kirin'Tor cock. The only case of a secondary leader with some character change is Liadrin, who came from having a crisis of faith to "human Paladin cardboard cutout #1548" which is regression.

At best Blizzard manages to give some (but only a handful) characters some spotlight, but exposure is not character development. Nor a sign of not that bad of a storyteller.

[Ramz]

Well ofc no, since WoD something wend down the pipeline and then all the development with Horde got so ridiculous for Legion that made me rage quit.

One of the primary reasons was death of Vol'Jin and ascension of Sylvanas to Warchief. How they cut off Baine from Highmountain experience. How Horde story was almost completely irrelevant for entire expansion.

Vol'Jin is specially criminal case as it's not like he didn't have plot armor, He had ANTI-plot armor. He HAD to die no matter the reason or if that is contradicting his recent lore and story progression, or even troll burial ceremony. Hell, even his dying scene was less about him and more about Sylvanas. It was completely revolting experience. There was zero symetry in Varian treatment and the Darkspear Chieftain, they completely ignored his traits for a troll, his battle prowess his ties to Loa, both Samedi and Shadra the Venom Queen the one that has control over poisons and infections. Then we learn that Loas pointed undead elf for next successor of faction, so not only Loas care for politics but also apparently revers undeads AND elves. He better be back in physical form, his story is not over, especially now where both Zandalar and Kul'Tiras for which he still holds grudge against is coming back.

Also her ascension was super random and forced as fuck. There was no previous record for her working for that. It just feels like one big disgusting fanservice that doesn't even care for common reason.

Orc are running short for relevant characters, they need new blood, and while I'm happy that Saurfang returns, he needs assistance with new nice characters akin to Nazgrim. I'd like to see return of Gorgonna from Grizzly Hills, she was cool reasonable and proud orc.

Tauren needs some good storyline, last time they had it in MoP with Dawnchasers, but it was just a splinter faction of Tauren.

With Trolls they really need more characters than Vol'Jin it was an horrendly irresponsible thing to kill him off without having any prominent successor to take over the tribe. This is why I thought devs wouldn't do such a thing. Last time they actually tried to develop someone else was in Cataclysm with Earthcaller Torunscar. And in WoD Kajassa seemed to be a promising character, but she only had 4 quests for her.
Vanira as vice-leader needs a presence. Rokhan who could be as much random NPC as he has zero story going for him. Some degree of personality and aims to go for.

Same for Tauren orc, goblins, and undeads. I'd like to see return of Belmont, and possible successor for Sylvanas, someone less edgy but cool and levelheaded to guide forsaken reasonably.

The funniest thing is that it's not that difficult to push at least 4 quests to show racial involvement.

in Highmountain you could've had few quests about Bloodhoof and Highmountain interaction. Darkspears could appear in Azsuna killing nagas, goblins could appear on Argus trying to find some new technology, heck... even gob squad return would be good to see.

It's also a huge waste that when main enemy is Legion there was no orcish initiative to fight the demons that corrupted them and made slaves out of them. But nah, apparently Legion invasion doesn't bother them. But here, enjoy that heap in memory of Broxigar, take this as orcish content.

But truth to be told Alliance is also in so much better position. Gelbin and council of threee hammer are still irrevelant. Night Elves need some new characters so they're not just stuck with Tyri and Malfy. And let's hope new goats and worgen will step up.

[Swalload]

Pandaren

We don't even want those at all.

[Mehrunes]

I am trying to be optimistic about it considering what we've seen so far. I mean Sarufang and Baine getting new models could be taken as a sign they'll at least see some action.

Or it'll be Nathanos 2.0 where they get 5 quests each in the starting patch and then are forgotten. Or hell, even Athissa situation. Anyone remembers she had a character bio for Legion? Some major player right there.