Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Flarelaine]

They definitely didn't. Paladin is very strong in PvP.

Ele Shaman can 1v1 a lot of classes with some PvP gear.

Here's your problem, those specs aren't meant to do good in both PvE and PvP, they're meant to be good for one thing only. If Ele Shaman could PvP AND PvE it would be broken and there'd be no reason to go pure DPS class.

Blizzard has been balancing PvE and PvP separately for some time now, so I do not believe in this reasoning.

[Kaver]

it wasnt intended in 2004 to have the game run for over a decade...or for the raid bosses to drop loot since that was a hotfix

Lol, i didn't know that raid bosses didn't drop loot in the beginning :P

[Uselessrouge]

You're being so dramatic. I have seen so many people complaining about how people want a vanilla LFG/LFR but have never actually seen someone suggest or ask for it yet.

I want all the vanilla inconveniences but I don't want to play a game with bugs and only 4 viable specs. This slippery slope argument doesn't make much sense, there is a huge difference between making vanilla a bit more playable and making it more convenient to play and I trust the developers to see the distinction.

There is a difference between making classes OP and overtuned, and making it so every class' spec has the proper tools for it to do its job in a group (e.g. every tank spec SHOULD have a taunt, that really isn't a tool that is optional to do your job efficiently).

i am just scared that is they start to balance classes we end up with having the double or raid damage.. then what is next? scaling boss dmg , boss hp , boss abilitys ... evrything will change its the butterfly effect .

i would not care if they did that a bit later after release but at least keep the release the same old shitfest it was ^^


on the other side yeah i agree evry tank should have a taunt.. but it was kind of a vanilla think that evry class had something unique.. its hard to draw a line imo , thats why i would just keep it 100% vanilla for the start and maybe fix stuff with time it has been over 10 years i remember that it was a shitstorm back then and balance was totaly bad but hey we wanted vanilla or?

[Flarelaine]

Then you're just plain wrong, because this didn't even change into TBC.

Arms warriors were the PvP spec for Warriors. They were designed to be that way, with Fury being the PvE spec.

Again, I still do not equate "it turned out that way" with "it was meant to be".

[Kralljin]

These were literally exactly how they built the classes - So that some had a specific spec for PvP.

I really think it was more or less a coincidence.

It was more like the "theme" of a spec that dominated a lot of the design choices.

Frost was just given a lot of control / freeze talents because that kinda fits the Frost theme, Frost has some defensive (Slows, Freeze, Ice Blocks, etc.) aspect, whereas fire just goes full on burning things.

Altough to be fair, Mage was probably the best designed class in Vanilla, at least as far as talents were concerned, you can look at almost every mage talent and they have some sort of use.

Even Arcane, those utility talents in Arcane were amazing, despite the spec as a whole not really working, altough 3min Mage leaned heavy Arcane due Arcane power / PoM.

[Deleted]

"One class was better than all the others, but I also played that, so it's fine"

What kind of vormit did you just spew? I never said warriors were balanced lol

[Swalload]

What the fuck are you going on about, neutral magic? Show me where in Vanilla OR Chronicals where this nonsense is true.
The tooltip of it was, "Draws on the soul of the party member to shield them."

Bubble botting wasn't fun or a good fantasy. They didn't do a good job with the fantasy because it just required spamming one spell. Also, if you were locked out of your holy school you couldn't cast it. OH MY GOD BUBBLE BOTS WERE HOLY ALL ALONG!!!!

Current disc fantasy is MUCH better imo, and our opinions differ and that's fine. What isn't fine is you're wrong again! Current disc playstyle varies situationally - shadow mend is used a lot more in 5 mans than raids, and atonement healing is used more in raids than 5 mans (when 7.0 dropped, anyway.) ALL damage is converted to healing, not just holy damage. Having a higher skill-cap doesn't make it clunky, sorry it's not as mindless as your preferred one-button-win bubble bot.



Take your own advice about disc. Everything you've said since my initial reply has been bullshit and back pedaling.
Disc was a specialization, that's why it had its own tree.
Pre 1.12 lasted a lot longer than 1.12 did, Divine Spirit was the end of the disc tree in that one, not Power Infusion.
Just because disc didn't have a fantasy associated with it didn't mean it wasn't a spec.
Just because spells overlapped in the Spellbook tabs didn't mean it wasn't its own spec.
As I mentioned before, both holy priests and disc priests used six spells from BOTH sides.

Also, Light Well was the strongest heal per mana and the most mana efficient heal in the game, you played with bad people who didn't use it.



Take your own advise, nobody agreed with you and you've got at least three people calling you out on your shit.

Every single line that you wrote there is wrong.

You don't even know what a fantasy is, you talk about it by mentioning gameplay lol, the number of buttons to spam has nothing to do with the fantasy at all. Stop being wrong.
Neutral magic means it looks and comes from an element, nothing in disc look like an element, it's basically force of will. Stop being wrong.
It's not a specialization, it's a filler tree that helps the other 2 real specs. Stop being wrong.
No one gives a flying shit about an even more badly designed talent tree that had to be modified mid-game, the time it lasts has no correlation to it's integrity either that's all production pipeline and dev prioritizing stuff. Stop being wrong.
The problem is not using spells from all over the spellbook, as I said a million times, it's the fact that disc has only 1 core spell that was not used cuz it sucked ass, so it used what holy used (no, not holy using what disc used, other way around). Stop being wrong.
They used spells from both sides but we all know what the core was, it was overwhelmingly Holy, including the spec which was mostly points in holy. Stop being wrong.
Light Well sucked donkey ass, fuck off with your shit, no one bothered to run after that crap. Stop being wrong.

Facts don't care how many people agree with them, they are still there for the people who are worth it.

[Swalload]

Literally every sentence here is incorrect.

Stay stupid and useless. I'll stay superior and relevant.

[Thimagryn]

What is the point? You change one or two classes or other stuff and it will domino to every single aspect of a so-called 'Classic' 'Vanilla' 'Original' game.

At some point, you just have to simply sit back and accept things which you should not be tinkering with. Nobody's going to reclaim that Original WoW game feeling, be it frustrations or joy.

Changes can be added while maintaining a Vanilla experience, but it's important to nail down what a Vanilla experience is first. Is it the brutally imbalanced 1.0? A moderate 1.7? 1.12? If nobody is going to agree on what patch offers the original WoW feeling, then it doesn't really matter if changes are added to make a moderately balanced 1.13. No matter what we won't get the original Vanilla experience since we all have knowledge of the game where we didn't before. Class popularity will be influenced by what works and what doesn't and it's already a trickle down to every aspect of the game, especially for raid composition.

I think what is more important is retaining the challenge and sense of exploration that the original game captured. It's less about what balance has to be kept perfectly and more about retaining flavours and feelings of exploring a challenging new environment with our characters. Whether or not the balance tweaks affect our leveling or only apply to end-game doesn't really matter as much to the casual player anyways. It's only something that is really going to be looked upon by the top-end players, much like how balancing an RTS leans towards top-end play and has very minor effects on the casual player.

[Swalload]

The problem with your statement is that literally everything you say is incorrect, so no, you won't.

Go have fun with your shit build and call yourself disc when everyone says you're holy. Doesn't change my day, doesn't change the game, doesn't make disc anymore of a spec, doesn't make you any less of a moron.

[Kralljin]

But that said, the complete non-viability of Sub in PvE until (I think) Cataclysm really isn't explainable by anything else other than "Well, it's the PvP spec." The large difference in DPS between Fury and Arms (Until Cata, again) was only explainable by Arms' healing reduction - A skill which is, and always has been, ONLY good in PvP.

You have to keep in mind that even the Wotlk trees were still largely based off Vanilla trees, in Wotlk they attempted to break this, Arms was for a short time better than Fury (Fury simply took over once again solely because it scaled better with gear).

SV, a dead tree originally, became a viable Hunter spec in Wotlk, Deep Freeze (Frost Mage ultimate) was added a huge damage component against perma stun immune targets (a.k.a. Raid bosses) to make it a useful button in PvE.

I think the whole "PvP spec" thing was a bit exaggerated by the player base, while certain trees most certainly had it's prime use in PvP, this distinction has always been slightly half assed, Fury for example had two talents centered around being the victim of a critical strike (Enrage & Blood Craze), this was never really a thing in PvE.

The Vanilla trees were designed with mostly the "What fits the spec / class" idea in mind, in BC a similiar philosophy was applied but actually useful talents were (mostly) implemented.

A PvP spec was basically a spec that received useful talents but had a not solely Dps centered theme, others simply became a PvP Spec because they had a few talents that were extremely good in PvP.

[Manaia]

The problem with your statement is that literally everything you say is incorrect, so no, you won't.

Some people just won't listen or analyze what other people are saying. He's just butthurt over...who knows. But he's not listening and no amount of facts or reasoning is going to change that. My previous message was my last one to him, I'd recommend yours be the last too. It's just too frustrating to read.

For fucks sake, he thinks if he just spouts WRONG then it makes him correct. It doesn't work for Trump and it certainly doesn't work for this guy.

[Molis]

Nope you get patch 1.0 Vanilla and you like it

[Flarelaine]

Explain Sub Rouges.

Better stealth had other uses than PvP. I used Sub for leveling. Faster stealth meant less time between mobs and they never noticed me either.

Also, sapping in dungeons was never a problem.

[Swalload]

But I thought people just said "healer priest," you did say that after all

- - - Updated - - -



There is no such thing as a 'leveling spec.' Yes, there was a 'best spec for leveling,' but specs were not made to level.

Of course there was leveling specs. Even today there are leveling specs.

[Mindark]

Every single line that you wrote there is wrong.

Neutral magic means it looks and comes from an element, nothing in disc look like an element, it's basically force of will. Stop being wrong.

There is no such thing as neutral magic in WoW. You're making things up.

It's not a specialization, it's a filler tree that helps the other 2 real specs. Stop being wrong.

The other 2 real specs? The only real specs healing classes had were healing: holy and disc. Shadow wasn't a "real spec"

No one gives a flying shit about an even more badly designed talent tree that had to be modified mid-game, the time it lasts has no correlation to it's integrity either that's all production pipeline and dev prioritizing stuff. Stop being wrong.

Like holy was? And every other spec in the game?

The problem is not using spells from all over the spellbook, as I said a million times, it's the fact that disc has only 1 core spell that was not used cuz it sucked ass, so it used what holy used (no, not holy using what disc used, other way around). Stop being wrong.

So you're saying that, with the exception of one spell, Disc had a pretty complete toolkit?

They used spells from both sides but we all know what the core was, it was overwhelmingly Holy, including the spec which was mostly points in holy. Stop being wrong.

They used spells from both sides but we all know what the core was, it was overwhelmingly Disc, including the spec which was mostly points in holy.

Light Well sucked donkey ass, fuck off with your shit, no one bothered to run after that crap. Stop being wrong.

Lightwell was the best. If people had to "run after that crap," then that's a placement/git gud problem on the priest.

Facts don't care how many people agree with them, they are still there for the people who are worth it.

And opinions don't become facts by saying you're right. And facts are there for unworthy people, too. That's the thing with facts. Is they're absolute and for everyone.

To summarize your well thoughtout post:

Every single line that you wrote there is wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong. Stop being wrong.

[Swalload]

There is no such thing as neutral magic in WoW. You're making things up.


The other 2 real specs? The only real specs healing classes had were healing: holy and disc. Shadow wasn't a "real spec"


Like holy was? And every other spec in the game?


So you're saying that, with the exception of one spell, Disc had a pretty complete toolkit?


They used spells from both sides but we all know what the core was, it was overwhelmingly Disc, including the spec which was mostly points in holy.


Lightwell was the best. If people had to "run after that crap," then that's a placement/git gud problem on the priest.


And opinions don't become facts by saying you're right. And facts are there for unworthy people, too. That's the thing with facts. Is they're absolute and for everyone.

To summarize your well thoughtout post:

1. You're saying I'm making things up but then you say shadow is not a real spec and disc is, and holy is mostly using disc spells. What's next?

2. How is shadow not a real spec? I didn't say HEALING SPECS ONLY OR I CALL THE COPS.

3. Many specs were shit indeed, but as you know, holy changes less than disc and the changes were always smaller, it didn't go through a entire core rework twice. That means that even for the devs it was a terrible tree to start with the the spec itself had no identity so they gave it one later on.

4. Absolutely not what I'm saying, it's very clear what I'm saying. You are again trying to find shit where there is nothing. I'm not even gonna explain cuz I'm sure you got it you're just being cancerous.

5. Here's what you do as a priest with the most popular build: You do fort, then spirit buff. For the next 30 minutes until you do the buffs again all you cast are different ranks of heal, prayer of healing, renew and maybe a bubble here and there. at least 90% of your actions as a "disc priest" are a copy/paste of what a holy priest does. That means Disc has no identity it's just borrowing it from holy by default because it's lacking things of its own.

6. On paper lightwell is good. We don't play on paper, we play a game where top mythic raiders sometimes even miss something obvious in their screen. Lightwell didn't get changed and removed because it was good and efficient. It got fucked cuz it was garbage in the way people play the game.

7. That's the problem with people like you. You think that because someone types something in a forum it's automatically an opinion and you find it easy to discard it. Realizing that disc is not really a spec in vanilla is just as simple as figuring out why an apple is a fruit and not a vegetable.

[ddsad2212]

People do get that balancing isn't just the specs right? You need new items or heavily updated current items, you also need to vastly change how they play in other area's because a buff Ret pally becomes the best PvP spec in the game by a landslide and a buff shadow priest is just as problematic.

Also some classes were not good in raids but they weren't useless, they were very strong in PvP and other areas. One of the strong points of the game at the time is that there was more to it then just raiding and so playing a farming spec was completely legitimate.

[elaina]

A few relatively small changes can make all specs viable. They should ask if any critical rotational ability is missing from hybrid specs to make it fun and not a snoozefest (ret should have crusader strike imo), lock in the rotation at upwards of 80 to 90% the same as vanilla and then bring up numbers tuning to make it somewhat competitive.

[Gaidax]

A few relatively small changes can make all specs viable. They should ask if any critical rotational ability is missing from hybrid specs to make it fun and not a snoozefest (ret should have crusader strike imo), lock in the rotation at upwards of 80 to 90% the same as vanilla and then bring up numbers tuning to make it somewhat competitive.

Ret with Crusader Strike will reck PvP just like it did pre-BC with insane oneshots thanks to Seal of Command double procs and what not. So this means more balancing or shit being even more broken.