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  1. #101
    You don't understand. Classic servers have to be as inconvenient and shitty as possible or it will ruin their hipster street cred

    Lawl at the purists in these threads admitting that add-ons were part of the experience but then trying to say they detract from the game

    Have your cake and eat it too I guess

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Youn View Post
    The thing is with Vanilla Lua you are allowed to do far too much. A modern coder could recreate/make some of the more powerful items that just are too restricted in the Modern Lua. Do, you really want an addon to tell you where things are going to hit on the floor be shading those area pink? Do you want it to also move you out of the fire? If your not fast enough, it could instantly target the guy that needs healing the most. It could probably even choose the correct level of spell based of your mana and what needs to be done out there.
    It could not only choose the right spell and its rank for you to cast, but also actually cast it for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saucerian View Post
    FFXIV does not support UI mods and I'm sure they learned from WoW's example -- when modders break intended gameplay, the only choices are disallow the mods, or redesign the game around their existence.
    Yeah, that's why overlays are must have in hardcore raiding there. Wanna do savage/ults, eh? Gotta install ACT, it also has DMB/BW functionality baked in

    It's not 2004 anymore, it's 2017, if game doesn't have support for addons, community will create tools that are needed/necessary for overlays, combat log parsing, ability tracking and so on.
    Last edited by ls-; 2017-11-21 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #103
    ehh I wouldn't say ACT is required for extreme/savage content.
    Make it easier and lets you know who's a shitter on the team, but not required.

    For ultimate, of course, but the people that designed ultimate bahamut know they're using it anyway, the flavor text mechanics in that fight are practically designed to fuck people that aren't paying attention to anything but obvious mechanic markers, and it did.
    But that's ultimate.
    Almost no one does ultimate.

  4. #104
    Just an FYI, Vanilla had all the add-ons you use today to help with gameplay. Vanilla also had an extensive macro system for if/when, cast sequence, mouse over, etc.

  5. #105
    People grouped in Vanilla by spamming lfg until they had a core group of good players on their friends list they would hit up regularly ie mainly a reliable tank/healer, a lfg tool i dont think would detract from that initial build up because not on a x realm which was one of the community killers because people diddnt have a reputation to uphold where good players ended up getting whispered all the time and bad players added to ignore lists (ah the old Iron Forge claim "my brother was on my computer and ninja'd")

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    At end of the day the community that wants classic servers are for the most part already playing on private servers in there 10's of thousands (true Story) and since its those players Blizzard are trying to bring back to the fold do'sent it make sense that those players current experience and input from their GM's would be most relevant ?
    Last edited by trodelphin; 2017-11-21 at 05:03 AM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Just an FYI, Vanilla had all the add-ons you use today to help with gameplay. Vanilla also had an extensive macro system for if/when, cast sequence, mouse over, etc.
    True, people were just too stupid to realize how to do it. Same with the private server community too really living in their bubble ignorant of the possibilities, not clever enough to learn. Just look at the addon scene for private servers, it had barely evolved at all in the last 10 years, they've done the bare minimum and called it a day. I for one can't wait for proper brilliant developers to get their hands on Classic and make it better than ever.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Yeah, that's why overlays are must have in hardcore raiding there. Wanna do savage/ults, eh? Gotta install ACT, it also has DMB/BW functionality baked in

    It's not 2004 anymore, it's 2017, if game doesn't have support for addons, community will create tools that are needed/necessary for overlays, combat log parsing, ability tracking and so on.
    I wasn't suggesting an unmoddable Classic UI, but rather an unmoddable one that included all the tools such as you mentioned.

    This thread is making me lose faith; I'm not concerned so much with raiding tools as things like quest helper or dungeon finder - if people are able to make such mods, they will, and when their use proliferates (with something like a dungeon finder especially) it'll become hard to find groups / play the game without them.

    Ergo, I don't want Classic able to be turned into mostly-retail via mods.
    F2P: If you don't think it's worth my money, I don't think it's worth my time.

  8. #108
    So QoL changes like stacking Soul Shards or Class balances are heresy but the Add on infrastructure needs to be over hauled to prevent Vanilla addons

    Nope. No hypocrisy there.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by bryroo View Post
    So QoL changes like stacking Soul Shards or Class balances are heresy but the Add on infrastructure needs to be over hauled to prevent Vanilla addons

    Nope. No hypocrisy there.
    I know you are talking about a Vanilla vs Non-vanilla opposition, but I'm sure you can see how some people can view some old addons as too convenient even if they were obtainable back then. It's the same idea of not making the game too easy.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Koward View Post
    I know you are talking about a Vanilla vs Non-vanilla opposition, but I'm sure you can see how some people can view some old addons as too convenient even if they were obtainable back then. It's the same idea of not making the game too easy.
    I agree. I think the old Addons were too powerful. I'm upset at the posters trying to discourage any kind of discourse over improving the experience as though Classic Servers can be made as though it's still 2004 when the community has accrued so much knowledge since then.

    I think it's possible to have a dialogue about what is and isn't healthy for the game without everything being a knee jerk reaction especially when you acknowledge that it ultimately CAN'T be exactly like it was so many years ago

    If the old Addons system were put in people would abuse it but if you change it you have to concede that you've already moved away from the authentic experience
    Last edited by bryroo; 2017-11-21 at 02:31 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delana View Post
    Good luck with your randomly matched group in actually hard instances.
    I played Vanilla. I wouldn't anticipate any particular problems unless they've made the content harder.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I played Vanilla. I wouldn't anticipate any particular problems unless they've made the content harder.
    I was there too bro. Wailing Caverns took far more patience and coordination than modern max level heroics. If you want to take the risk to random queue with an addon, that's fine. At least when it's an addon the risk is on you. When Blizzard added LFD to the game, they felt compelled to nerf the dungeons down to where success was assured.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Saucerian View Post
    Ergo, I don't want Classic able to be turned into mostly-retail via mods.
    Well, LFG (not LFD w/ queue system) will be inevitably implemented, LFG addons rely on fairly basic functionality to work, simply being able to post in/read chat and being able to send/request group invites is enough to create simple LFG addon.

    It's pretty much glorified chat filter w/ user-friendly UI. So instead of spamming LFG/LFM and trying to find relevant messages from other people in chat, the addon does it for you. I said trying because there's hundreds of people spamming there, so simply being able to read chat was a level of difficulty in Vanilla.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Well, LFG (not LFD w/ queue system) will be inevitably implemented, LFG addons rely on fairly basic functionality to work, simply being able to post in/read chat and being able to send/request group invites is enough to create simple LFG addon.

    It's pretty much glorified chat filter w/ user-friendly UI. So instead of spamming LFG/LFM and trying to find relevant messages from other people in chat, the addon does it for you. I said trying because there's hundreds of people spamming there, so simply being able to read chat was a level of difficulty in Vanilla.
    Right, and I'd be fine with a feature like Legion's LFG (IIRC there was a crude group finder in Classic at some point that kind of worked like the one today), as long as it wasn't possible to make the matchmaking automated as in LFD.

    I'd say if a mod like that ever arose it should probably be disallowed to keep the game more true to Classic.
    F2P: If you don't think it's worth my money, I don't think it's worth my time.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Saucerian View Post
    Right, and I'd be fine with a feature like Legion's LFG (IIRC there was a crude group finder in Classic at some point that kind of worked like the one today), as long as it wasn't possible to make the matchmaking automated as in LFD.

    I'd say if a mod like that ever arose it should probably be disallowed to keep the game more true to Classic.
    Original LFG from Blizzard was added in TBC.

    Technically, such addon can group up first seen tank, healer and 3 random DDs that are spamming LFG/LFM in chat. For example, if you're a healer and you're looking for members to run BRD it can send invites to 1 tank and 3 DDs that are looking for group to do BRD, if, let's say, a tank declines, it'll send invite to another tank who's looking for group and so forth.

    It's not a proper fair queue system that's implemented by Blizz, there's no teleportation to dung or anything like that, but it's good enough for people who don't want to bother w/ cherry-picking members.

    But I can also see stuff like M+ karma we have in Legion being implemented for Classic realms, it's a simple site w/ database of chars, just like wowprogress, but its addon will show "dungeon karma" for known characters. It's a tool for people who are into picking groups and/or members thoroughly.

    If you want, you can even mix all these things together

    Lastly, you can't disallow an addon. You have to break API it relies on, in this case it's interaction w/ chat which will break all chat addons, and group/raid invites which will hurt group/raid management related addons.
    Last edited by ls-; 2017-11-21 at 09:08 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by clinophobia View Post
    There are Vanilla Add-On Bundles, some private Servers got them for download but we will have to check out which client version we will get.
    if you think we will get the original client, you are gravely mistaken.

  17. #117
    I don't remember healbot in classic but I did use it in tbc and still do, the pace wasn't as fast as it was in tbc where your chaining flash heals together constantly classic healing didn't have that same pace in the 40s you'd have a healer per group and for the most part you'd just have to focus on healing your group unless you were dedicated tank healing. so 40 man healing was kinda like 5 man healing, where you really only need to pay attention to the health bars of the 4 other ppl in your group.

    personally i'd like to see a simplistic group finder, no match making or teleports just the ability to find groups without needing to watch chat spam for what could end up being hours, that was the most mundane part of the whole experience, sure if you have a dedicated 4 friends who you constantly group with no problem, for everyone else the lfg chat was not very efficient at all, but then again i'm probably not going to spend much time on these realms so ppl can enjoy the time consumption in all its glory for all I care. I can put up with class imbalance but i doubt i'd be able to spend as much time as I used to, trying to find and form groups like in ye old days before good game design was a factor.

    there was no haste in the game so you don't gradually get faster and faster paced combat, and quicker cooldowns and faster GCD's, what you get is what you get, you get full 1.5 second cast flash heals all the way through the game. no making spells cast faster so you can cast more of them, your locked to one speed the whole way through. that speed is the speed of molasses. you don't need healbot because the combat is not like the combat as it was in tbc where cast speed did increase and aoe damage went off the scale so you needed healbot then, or a tool like it to keep up with the damage. during T5/6 i used healbot but kept CT_raid for targets, today I have healbot setup to autotarget so i don't really need a list of targets any more. back then you needed healbot to keep up with the pace of damage it was way more dynamic than anything i did in classic at least from a healing perspective, tbc opened new doors that were previously closed.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-11-22 at 12:09 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delana View Post
    I was there too bro. Wailing Caverns took far more patience and coordination than modern max level heroics. If you want to take the risk to random queue with an addon, that's fine. At least when it's an addon the risk is on you. When Blizzard added LFD to the game, they felt compelled to nerf the dungeons down to where success was assured.
    Considering modern max-level heroics are a total faceroll, that's not saying much.

    But I'm not talking about actual RDF - you couldn't mod that in. How do you find people for Mythic+? If my friends/guildies who do them aren't on, I use LFG, and it's pretty successful. And you could absolutely build LFG as a mod.

    When did Blizzard supposedly nerf all the leveling dungeons? You say "when they added LFD", so that'd be 3.2 and that's definitely not true. I remember doing leveling dungeons after RDF and they weren't magically easier. I'm pretty sure they've never actually nerfed the 1-60 dungeons, but rather, the abilities characters have, have become much more powerful, combined with the prevalence of hierlooms to the point where we do several times as much DPS as we did back then and in many cases have more HP. If you have evidence otherwise, please let me know. The stat squish had unpredictable effects on dungeons in the 70-90 range, but they were not universally nerfs, that's for sure.

    Also, I think if you go to a Vanilla server and do WC, you will find it is not anywhere near as hard as you remember, because people are much better at their characters and more aware of the mob abilities. It will be very slow, though, that's simply the nature of the game back then.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Whay? Decurse addon was part of the vanilla experience, its like complaining that peopel will use wowhead insted of trhottbott (spelling) to help them in questing.
    Technically WoWhead is Thottbot, all the information was imported and it's literally the exact same database down to the old comments on Thottbot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisso View Post
    if you think we will get the original client, you are gravely mistaken.
    For one...the addition of an ingame groupfinder will be there in some shape or form. They will never let us go back to spamming trade for 5 hours on end...that feature alone will lead the downfall of the playerbase even the hardcores if it isn't there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Considering modern max-level heroics are a total faceroll, that's not saying much.

    But I'm not talking about actual RDF - you couldn't mod that in. How do you find people for Mythic+? If my friends/guildies who do them aren't on, I use LFG, and it's pretty successful. And you could absolutely build LFG as a mod.

    When did Blizzard supposedly nerf all the leveling dungeons? You say "when they added LFD", so that'd be 3.2 and that's definitely not true. I remember doing leveling dungeons after RDF and they weren't magically easier. I'm pretty sure they've never actually nerfed the 1-60 dungeons, but rather, the abilities characters have, have become much more powerful, combined with the prevalence of hierlooms to the point where we do several times as much DPS as we did back then and in many cases have more HP. If you have evidence otherwise, please let me know. The stat squish had unpredictable effects on dungeons in the 70-90 range, but they were not universally nerfs, that's for sure.

    Also, I think if you go to a Vanilla server and do WC, you will find it is not anywhere near as hard as you remember, because people are much better at their characters and more aware of the mob abilities. It will be very slow, though, that's simply the nature of the game back then.
    This is well put. The biggest adjustment people will have to relearn is mob kill priority, CC marks, kiting and agro building...the AoE abilities won't be there and when they are stuff like a mages Blizzard will still not do much unless you have enough targets to out dps the single target spells. We will go back to single target and a cleave now and than.

  20. #120
    Another similar question would be how macros work in classic. The original macros used a very different syntax than the one we are used to today so I wonder if they'll bring that back or if they will just use the modern one that came in TBC or whenever it was.

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