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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    No its not. It only shows that you have been raiding often enough and have been lucky to seen the thing drop and to win the roll.
    I had no idea you had to raid and be lucky to get the ivory raptor...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  2. #202
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Because the big fuss over why we should have a vanilla server, was about the experience of it as it was.
    It should have players who are actually invested in it for the right reasons.
    It will absolutely have a negative impact on people's motivations, and their participation.
    Look how easily before the upgrade forging that content could be dismissed as useless if there was nothing on the loot table that was an upgrade for you.
    Those are the people that classic does not need.
    Classic Servers are not being built on the needs of one type of player.

    You don't have the rights over someone elses fun and play style.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    That said... I hate the idea of the mounts I earned will once again be given out to players on LIVE servers. Keep that shit on classic servers. It's a badge of honor on live.
    With all due respect, that's snowflake thinking. There's no "badge of honor" about any of those mounts, nothing intrinsically special that warranted their removal, like Challenge Modes, Elite Gladiator sets, etc. When compared to other things in the game, they are completely ordinary.

    - There is no reason for Tier 3 to be super exclusive when Tiers 1-2.5 and Tiers 4-20 are easily farmable. Naxxramas was not removed with the intent of making that set exclusive, it was removed because Blizzard did not want (at that time) to have two Naxxramases in game.

    Furthermore, Naxxramas 40 was removed at a time when transmog didn't exist. Many people who could have farmed the gear simply didn't do it, and people who had it vendored it, because they didn't know they could use it for anything.

    - There is no reason for the Razzashi Raptor and Zulian Tiger to be special. Farming them in Wrath was similar to farming Horridon and Ji'kun today. They were old instance mounts just like dozens of others. The raids were removed because Blizzard didn't want to have two instances sharing the same entrance, and possibly didn't want to have two versions of the same instance taking up resources (meaning the instances were overwritten to create the dungeons).

    In time, Blizzard changed its approach to such things: it added NPCs you can use to queue for old LFR instances, and it opted for a separate entrance to the Karazhan dungeon instead of replacing the raid. Throughout MoP, they also added back most of the troll transmogs that were lost with the ZA removal, which again shows an inclination to bring back cool things that were removed randomly.

    - Last but not least, the pre-1.4 epic mounts were NOT removed to reward players who owned them in some way. Quite the contrary, they were removed because at that time people thought they weren't epic enough - because at that time epic mounts were insanely expensive and there was no refund system, and people would have complained that they paid 1.000 gold for a recolor of a 60% speed mount, when the armored ones were advertised nearby.

    At that time, Blizzard strongly encouraged people to replace them with the new, "cooler" models, which made a lot of sense in 1.4, except maybe for 3 or 4 distinct mounts (the cats and the raptors). You had one of the nicer looking mounts so you didn't replace it, but many other players who didn't play Night Elves or Trolls and bought epic mounts in the first 6 months of the game probably didn't keep them, because there was no way for them to know how valuable they would become.

    Since then, the nature and value of epic racial mounts has changed multiple times. It changed once with Burning Crusade, when it became quite affordable to buy a second epic ground mount, if you had room for it (so the "deal" they were offered in 1.4 was drastically devalued). It changed again when a mount tab was introduced and mounts became collectibles. And it is changing again now when at least some of these mounts are getting entirely new models (kodos got them already, horses will 100% get them in BFA, I suspect more will come). Are you telling me people who exchanged these mounts in 1.4 should just gnaw at their regrets while you enjoy your (artificially rare but otherwise completely trivial) "badge of honor"?

    By the way, Blizzard already introduced mounts that are very similar to the Ivory Raptor and the Ancient Nightsaber, arguably the coolest two of the original set. Personally I wouldn't be against something like that being done for the other ones, I only want the diversity of the other colors, it doesn't necessarily have to come from the same item; but since they are making Classic servers and the question of merged collections will always remain open, like a wound, unless every single Classic item is available in Standard anyway, they might as well add them as they are.
    Last edited by Coconut; 2017-11-21 at 08:48 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    It will be much easier to just farm the appropriate level area to get your greens than it would saving up 100k.

    Also, I think the cap was 65k during vanilla.

    These items will not be that much anyways. Maybe 100g, but that would jsut create a farming area for people if they actually did sell for as much as people fear.

    Finally, get off the AH, you shouldn't be buying greens on their while leveling.
    Its even easier to pay hundreds of gold at max level to buy them out on the ah.

    You are not really making a counter point just trying to obfuscate my own.

  5. #205
    Not a single fucking thing from Classic over to live. Thats exactly how they should do it

  6. #206
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Its even easier to pay hundreds of gold at max level to buy them out on the ah.

    You are not really making a counter point just trying to obfuscate my own.
    Not sure what your point really is in the first place. You are worried about BoE greens being overpriced ... most of which can be farmed solo and/or replaced in BRD.

    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    Not a single fucking thing from Classic over to live. Thats exactly how they should do it
    Better yet, how about you don't play or use the items on live? That is exactly how they should do it.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    With all due respect, that's snowflake thinking.
    Snowflake means "someone who takes offense easily and is very emotional". The term was created to be derogatory. It's funny to say "all due respect" and then basically call someone a whiny little bitch. LOL

    There's no "badge of honor"
    I think you don't know what badge of honor means.

    badge
    noun
    1.a special or distinctive mark, token, or device worn as a sign of allegiance, membership, authority, achievement, etc.:

    hon·or
    noun
    1.high respect; esteem.
    "his portrait hangs in the place of honor"
    2.a privilege.

    Tell me again how an impossible to obtain item is not a badge of honor for the person who obtained it.

    I don't care about sets from Naxx. You can still get them in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Not sure what your point really is in the first place. You are worried about BoE greens being overpriced ... most of which can be farmed solo and/or replaced in BRD.



    Better yet, how about you don't play or use the items on live? That is exactly how they should do it.
    Im not going to play classic. I did it when it was current. Im done with it. I have classic items on live currently. Why should others get a second chance of getting shit over to live when they missed the first chance ?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    5 players? Still a hell of a lot easier than MC/BWL/AQ40 which was never removed. So prestige is still not there
    You needed at least 10-15 raid geared people who knew what they were doing in BC to kill any bosses in Naxx 40. You needed more people, and more who really knew what they were doing to kill all bosses in Naxx 40 in BC.

    I have no idea what you mean with "Still a hell of a lot easier than MC/BWL/AQ40 which was never removed. So prestige is still not there"

    Getting access to Classic items on a regular server via Collections and vice versa is anathema to having Classic around at all.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Not sure what your point really is in the first place. You are worried about BoE greens being overpriced ... most of which can be farmed solo and/or replaced in BRD.
    To be fair, the impact collectors might have on Classic realms is a valid concern. From potential interface changes to accommodate tracking item and mount ownership that never existed in Classic, to some amount of ninja looting, an impact on the economy, complaints coming from "tourists" about the lack of QoL features - all these are valid points to raise, and it's ok that people raise them.

    Getting the same items for the same work is a fair counterpoint, but ultimately we don't need to invade Classic to regain access to those items. We can find a solution to please everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    Tell me again how an impossible to obtain item is not a badge of honor for the person who obtained it.
    Because its rarity is entirely artificial. It's not like a real life thing that is actually rare. With very little effort, Blizzard can add it to a vendor tomorrow for 1 gold, and then it will be obtainable again. Just like they did with the 5.3 Darkspear toys.

    And other than that you didn't do anything all that special to get it. It was never an overt challenge. Ask yourself the following questions:

    1. What separates you from someone who bought an epic mount prior to 1.4 and exchanged it (or threw it away when they bought a flying mount because they needed bag space). You chose to play a Troll, and therefore were more likely to keep your epic mount because it looked decent. Is that really a mark of distinction over an Orc or Tauren who replaced it? Or an Undead who never had a mount swap?

    2. What makes you so special over someone who leveled or earned 1.000 gold a little bit after 1.4? It was just as hard, and Blizzard never made it a competition. The old mounts never became "rewards" until much later, people didn't exactly race for them at that time.

    An Undead player levels to 60, earns 1.000 gold and buys an epic mount within the first 6 months of the game. Today, that mount can be bought for 10 gold from a vendor by a lvl 40 alt. What exactly makes you deserve a mark of distinction and "badge of honor" over that player?

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    I don't care about sets from Naxx. You can still get them in the game.
    Many items were temporarily unavailable. I mentioned them before throughout this thread, and I gave the 5.3 toys as an example in this very post. In fact, the 5.3 toys are very similar, because they were removed before the Toy Box was a thing and many people didn't get them because of severe bag space issues. The Naxx items were temporarily unavailable too, for two whole expansions. I take it if they add the old epic mounts back, you'll get over it.
    Last edited by Coconut; 2017-11-21 at 10:46 PM.

  11. #211
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    I want to keep this thread open- please be respectful in your replies everyone!
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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Getting the same items for the same work is a fair counterpoint, but ultimately we don't need to invade Classic to regain access to those items. We can find a solution to please everyone.
    You can't please everyone and Blizzard doesn't want that anyway. How do I know that? Because they keep taking items out of the game. Leaving people who got them to have a badge of honor.

    And other than that you didn't do anything all that special to get it. It was never an overt challenge.
    Then you didn't play back then to know what it was like. It took months.

    1. What separates you from someone who bought an epic mount prior to 1.4 and exchanged it (or threw it away when they bought a flying mount because they needed bag space). You chose to play a Troll, and therefore were more likely to keep your epic mount because it looked decent. Is that really a mark of distinction over an Orc or Tauren who replaced it? Or an Undead who never had a mount swap?
    What separates them is the fact that someone bought the mount before 1.4. You know how much work goes into that?

    Also, everyone could see the writing on the wall. You could no longer buy the old epic mounts. You were STUPID to trade them in for the armored ones(Especially since the mounts were less than 100g and were boe). This goes for a lot of the things in the game that they later removed. Blizzard TOLD us what they were doing and gave warnings all over the place.

    2. What makes you so special over someone who leveled or earned 1.000 gold a little bit after 1.4? It was just as hard, and Blizzard never made it a competition. The old mounts never became "rewards" until much later, people didn't exactly race for them at that time.
    Being 1 in several million makes me special, obviously. Do you need help with the definition of special as well? How many old school mounts do you think are left and still playing?

    Are you really telling me that there wasn't a race to get the epic mount? Are you joking right now? Clearly you never played back then.

    An Undead player levels to 60, earns 1.000 gold and buys an epic mount within the first 6 months of the game. Today, that mount can be bought for 10 gold from a vendor by a lvl 40 alt. What exactly makes you deserve a mark of distinction and "badge of honor" over that player?
    This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Something that did the hard work and took ages to get a mount is somehow equal to someone who just leveled to 40 in about a day or two from creating the character and buys a cheap mount that didn't take effort to get. You're insane if you think they're in anyway remotely the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  13. #213
    @urasim There's no need to be angry. Perhaps my snowflake argument was a bit too callous, I apologize for that.

    I did play Vanilla when it was current, but to be fair it was on a private server from back then, so my experience wasn't the same as yours (I did have one of those mounts though, as well as Tier 3; they're part of my old WoW memories, which is why I'd like them to be obtainable again). Now on to the discussion at hand.

    Here's what the 1.4 patch notes had to say about the epic mounts:

    Level 60 mounts purchased at vendors now have a whole new look. Faster undead mounts already have a different look and so have not changed. The new mounts can be seen standing near the mount vendors. If you have one of the old fast mounts, you can exchange it for one with a new look at the mount vendor.
    It doesn't even say anywhere that the old mounts were being removed. Paladin and Warlock epic mount quests were added in the same patch. Clearly, this was viewed as a feature, not a deadline for an exclusive reward. Nowadays they probably would have replaced them altogether, like they did with the updated models, but back then mounts were one of your most valuable possession and they didn't want to overwrite players' choices, so they added those clumsy quests to leave it up to them.

    It was players who recognized the prestige in them later on, once mount collecting became more of a thing, and if anything Blizzard just rolled with it.

  14. #214
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    Blizzard happens to do these kinda things between their games, unlock that? Take this in another game as reward, you did our promotion thing? Get this reward in another game.

    And this happens with games that you can play freely (take wow starter as free), so if they let us play in classic free or with our subscription fee this is a plausible option, but from my point of view, I would not do that until classic servers ages more than 2-3 years, and by the nature of classic it should not be temporary if It's a high-max level thing.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    @urasim There's no need to be angry. Perhaps my snowflake argument was a bit too callous, I apologize for that.
    I don't care what you call me. Just found it funny how wrong you were and corrected you. I'm not angry in the slightest.

    I did play Vanilla when it was current, but to be fair it was on a private server from back then, so my experience wasn't the same as yours (I did have one of those mounts though, as well as Tier 3; they're part of my old WoW memories, which is why I'd like them to be obtainable again). Now on to the discussion at hand.
    Then you didn't play classic. Thanks for the clarification on something I already knew I guess...

    It doesn't even say anywhere that the old mounts were being removed. Paladin and Warlock epic mount quests were added in the same patch. Clearly, this was viewed as a feature, not a deadline for an exclusive reward. Nowadays they probably would have replaced them altogether, like they did with the updated models, but back then mounts were one of your most valuable possession and they didn't want to overwrite players' choices, so they added those clumsy quests to leave it up to them.

    It was players who recognized the prestige in them later on, once mount collecting became more of a thing, and if anything Blizzard just rolled with it.
    Common sense, dude. All you had to do was actually look at the vendor. Do you see the old mounts anywhere? No? Hmm, maybe they removed them? Also, I'm talking about actual blue posts on the forums. The patch notes never give a clear picture of anything. You have to have previous knowledge of things if you want to read them. It's a shame Blizzard nuked their forums a few years back...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    This would be extremely cool :3

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well if I would need to acquire the ZG tiger legitemately, then this would already need me to get a character to 60, and get some gear before I can find a group. Then, I would need to keep farming over and over - and with my luck, this thing will either never drop, or I will never will the rolls if no one will pass for me out of pity. So... this would be a pretty heavy investment just for one mount. Even if I find a group of like-minded individuals who would all go in for the tiger, and stay playing so everybody gets the mount eventually. Though I don't know if I could commit to this - depends on how often this raid would happen. I even would not mind to level a healer for that, though I would prefer to level with a DPS wingman.
    We will disagree on that.
    What people asked for was the classic experience, because amongst other reasons we were told the game was simply better.
    People doing it to supplement the current game are there for the wrong reasons, it should be its own experience.
    And it will be be that if people are there for that only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    With all due respect, that's snowflake thinking. There's no "badge of honor" about any of those mounts, nothing intrinsically special that warranted their removal, like Challenge Modes, Elite Gladiator sets, etc. When compared to other things in the game, they are completely ordinary.
    If they aren't so intrinsically special, then leave them where they are.
    The more people ask, the more it just proves that wrong.
    I don't have many special mounts, maybe not even a single one of those.
    But I would still rather they remain what they are.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2017-11-22 at 02:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    We will disagree on that.
    What people asked for was the classic experience, because amongst other reasons we were told the game was simply better.
    People doing it to supplement the current game are there for the wrong reasons, it should be its own experience.
    And it will be be that if people are there for that only.
    Who cares what the reasons are if they get people to play with who actually remember how gameplay was in Classic at least a bit?

    You know, you need a critical mass for an MMO to work with, not only overall, but also at a given time of the day. It's not much fun if you look for a group but cannot find anyone because... you know.

    But these things are quite hypothetical because I don't expect them to allow farming mounts and transmog for your retail collection in Classic. They could probably make some promo thing for a special title or whatever, but this is a totally different thing. Like, adding removed mounts back into classic and let people unlock these on their retail account if they acquire such mounts with a regular Classic character. But I would not even count on that.

    At the moment, I expect them to re-create Classic in the state of the last patch before TBC regarding game mechanics, but probably not every dungeon unlocked yet. This way, they could save themselves the hassle of maintaining gameplay patches, but could create some progression in content over about 1-2 years. I don't expect QoL features being added at all, except B-net interface which would have the potential for grouping up with friends more easily. And I don't expect that a collection mode would be added.

    Thus, Classic would be for me some kind of memory recreation, and even for this it would not work out at all. I know too much about this game, I still remember some quests / questlines from this time. I did Onyxia attunement on some alliance characters. I raided MC, ZG and AQ20 and dimly remember the strategies for all bosses. I know where to find guides for classes and such. Classic is not much of use for me. I can have guild events in retail just as well. The only thing which would motivate me to play this version again with some dedication is this one mount. I have everything else I wanted.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Who cares what the reasons are if they get people to play with who actually remember how gameplay was in Classic at least a bit?

    You know, you need a critical mass for an MMO to work with, not only overall, but also at a given time of the day. It's not much fun if you look for a group but cannot find anyone because... you know.

    But these things are quite hypothetical because I don't expect them to allow farming mounts and transmog for your retail collection in Classic. They could probably make some promo thing for a special title or whatever, but this is a totally different thing. Like, adding removed mounts back into classic and let people unlock these on their retail account if they acquire such mounts with a regular Classic character. But I would not even count on that.

    At the moment, I expect them to re-create Classic in the state of the last patch before TBC regarding game mechanics, but probably not every dungeon unlocked yet. This way, they could save themselves the hassle of maintaining gameplay patches, but could create some progression in content over about 1-2 years. I don't expect QoL features being added at all, except B-net interface which would have the potential for grouping up with friends more easily. And I don't expect that a collection mode would be added.

    Thus, Classic would be for me some kind of memory recreation, and even for this it would not work out at all. I know too much about this game, I still remember some quests / questlines from this time. I did Onyxia attunement on some alliance characters. I raided MC, ZG and AQ20 and dimly remember the strategies for all bosses. I know where to find guides for classes and such. Classic is not much of use for me. I can have guild events in retail just as well. The only thing which would motivate me to play this version again with some dedication is this one mount. I have everything else I wanted.
    You argue that the reasons don't matter, and then state yourself that your motivation is purely the one mount.
    Proving my point, that you aren't there for the original experience or some attempt to have that experience again.
    But for the mount.

    You just contradicted yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    I don't care what you call me. I'm not angry in the slightest.
    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    It's a shame Blizzard nuked their forums a few years back...
    There are at least two things we can agree on. Maybe we're not so different after all?

    However, you did nothing to counter any of my arguments. The new epic mounts were intended as a feature, not a penalty. Yes, it was smart of you to hang on to your mount, for all that is worth, but that doesn't mean at that time Blizzard was trying to trick players out of an exclusive reward. In many cases, the retired mount was very similar to either a 60% mount or the armored version, so it seemed like a good deal. Look here:

    Retired epic Mechanostrider vs 60% speed Mechanostrider:



    Second retired Mechanostrider vs the new epic Mechanostrider model:



    Retired Red Wolf vs 60% speed Timber Wolf:



    Humans basically got the same mount but armored, Palomino vs Swift Palomino:



    In most cases, with the 2005 graphics, it felt like "Woah, I'm upgrading my mount! Cool!".

    And Undead literally didn't get anything. I ask you again: how are you better than an Undead player who bought his Green or Purple Skeletal Warhorse prior to May 2005? Their mounts devalued with time, why shouldn't yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    If they aren't so intrinsically special, then leave them where they are.
    The more people ask, the more it just proves that wrong.
    I don't have many special mounts, maybe not even a single one of those.
    But I would still rather they remain what they are.
    People don't ask for those mounts to feel special. People ask for them because mounts are a part of character customization, and those are extra colors that would be nice to use. The requests dipped after Cata and MoP because those models showed their age and people didn't want to use them anymore. Also, the best looking ones, the ones that were really worth getting, did get lookalikes:

    Ancient Nightsaber (the one I had) got the Zulian Panther (basically identical minus the harness):



    Ivory Raptor got the Bone-White Primal Raptor (slightly different, but better texture quality):



    This used to be a fine compromise. But now it looks like the old models are going to be updated... Racial mounts will once again be cool to use, so it would be nice to have more color options, whether or not they come from the exact same item as the Old School Rides.

    Here's a comparison between how the retired Green and Teal Kodos looked and what they look like in Live right now:




    Like I said before, I wouldn't mind if the original models remained unobtainable, but the updated ones look like something people could use on a regular or Highmountain Tauren. There are no other green tinted kodos in game, so this would be a valuable customization option to have (green even goes well with the red tribal tattoos of the Highmountain). And it was pretty clear from the BFA videos that horses are getting updated next.

    Updated models are made with today's resources, with the subscriptions we are paying right now. They shouldn't stay exclusive the very few people who, a very long time ago, bought and somehow chose to keep some very different mounts.


    And now is a perfect moment to bring up the issue. Classic Servers are going to bring a renewed interest in everything Vanilla. Maybe some of us aren't that keen on the gameplay, but we are keen on the collectibles. I say share the love!

    P.S. Sorry for the wall of images, but I feel it's easier to understand the points I'm trying to make with a little visual help.
    Last edited by Coconut; 2017-11-22 at 04:37 PM.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    There are at least two things we can agree on. Maybe we're not so different after all?

    -snip-

    P.S. Sorry for the wall of images, but I feel it's easier to understand the points I'm trying to make with a little visual help.
    Don't think you understand that TRADING in the old mount was very dumb. People knew the old ones weren't going to be in the game anymore. The new mounts didn't cost much gold. I bought a new mount as well as kept my old mount.

    You're not going to get old mounts on live for playing the new classic server. It's just not going to happen. Why? Because Blizzard KNOWS they're a badge of honor. That's why they added the achievement for it. That's why they keep removing mounts that are harder to get. It's their design philosophy that you have to fight against. Even if you can convince them, you and them have to fight hundreds of thousands of people who got the mounts. Just not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

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