Making room for the Necromancer class

[Deleted]

So since Death Knights are based on the Lich King, what Shaman, Paladin, and Warlock abilities do they possess? They certainly have his Necromantic abilities, but where are these other abilities that you speak of?

Maybe you should read up on the lore?

[Rhamses]

Maybe you should read up on the lore?

I'm well aware of the lore. I'm talking about the class, because you know the topic of this discussion is making room for a Necromancer class.

The original point of our little argument here is that the Lich King is a more powerful Necro than KT, so why would we want a class based on the weaker necro when we have a class based on a more powerful necromancer?

YOU'RE the one who said that the LK isn't a necromancer, but is some sort of weird hybrid of multiple existing classes. I'm simply asking you to describe what shaman, paladin, and warlock abilities have found their way from the LK to the DK class. After all, DKs have received several necromancer abilities from the LK.

[Deleted]

I'm well aware of the lore. I'm talking about the class, because you know the topic of this discussion is making room for a Necromancer class.

Oh is it? Then why are you so surprised that a necro class would be based on KT?

The original point of our little argument here is that the Lich King is a more powerful Necro than KT, so why would we want a class based on the weaker necro when we have a class based on a more powerful necromancer?

Because he's not the quintessential Necro. KT is. Cult of the Damned leader KT. Arthas is the quintessential DK.

YOU'RE the one who said that the LK isn't a necromancer, but is some sort of weird hybrid of multiple existing classes. I'm simply asking you to describe what shaman, paladin, and warlock abilities have found their way from the LK to the DK class. After all, DKs have received several necromancer abilities from the LK.

You do know that lore != gameplay, right?

[Kiradyn]

FFS this conversation is beyond assinine. The Lich King and Death Knights are clearly necromancers. You'd have to be purposely obtuse or outright trolling to believe otherwise.

I've never seen a group of people try so hard to deny reality in a very long time.

[Deleted]

FFS this conversation is beyond assinine. The Lich King and Death Knights are clearly necromancers. You'd have to be purposely obtuse or outright trolling to believe otherwise.

I've never seen a group of people try so hard to deny reality in a very long time.

And Sarg is a warrior. Should we create the warrior class based on him?

[Ghazan Julio]

Nobody likes demonology nowadays

This. asdasdasdasd

[Rhamses]

Oh is it? Then why are you so surprised that a necro class would be based on KT?

Because we already have a class that incorporates the Lich (KT) and is based on KT's master.

Because he's not the quintessential Necro. KT is. Cult of the Damned leader KT. Arthas is the quintessential DK.

Didn't the cult of the damned worship the Lich King?

You do know that lore != gameplay, right?

So in other words there are no Shaman, Paladin, or Warlock abilities you can point to.

Thanks!

[Deleted]

I wouldn't be surprised if we already didn't have a class that incorporates the Lich (KT) and is based on KT's master.

And do you know who the Lich King's master is? KJ. A warlock/warrior. So why aren't Necromancers warlock warriors? And KJ's master is Sarg. A warrior. So why don't necromancers have a Fury and Arms spec?

What even is this argument?

Didn't the cult of the damned worship the Lich King?

Yeah, so?

So in other words there are no Shaman, Paladin, or Warlock abilities you can point to.

Thanks!

Of course not. But that's his class. He's muddied. Why would a necromancer class be based on him when there's a perfectly perfect necromancer already?

[Kiradyn]

And Sarg is a warrior. Should we create the warrior class based on him?

Yep... trolling.

Infracted.

[Rhamses]

And do you know who the Lich King's master is? KJ. A warlock/warrior. So why aren't Necromancers warlock warriors? And KJ's master is Sarg. A warrior. So why don't necromancers have a Fury and Arms spec?

What even is this argument?

You tell me. You're the one going off the deep end for some reason.

Yeah, so?

So if KT is the "quintessential necromancer" because he's the master of the cult of the damned, what does that make the LK who is the god of the cult of the damned?

Of course not. But that's his class. He's muddied. Why would a necromancer class be based on him when there's a perfectly perfect necromancer already?

Uh, for two reasons:

1. They didn't want to make Warlocks irrelevant.
2. Blizzard (rightly) figured that players would rather play as the Lich King instead of his weaker subordinates (like KT).

The DK class itself isn't muddled. It's simply a "super Necromancer" instead of a basic necromancer. Advocates for a necromancer class want a basic necromancer instead of the Arch Necromancer that we received.

[Deleted]

Yep... trolling.

His reasoning is that since Arthas is the stronger necromancer he should be the base of a necro class

You tell me. You're the one going off the deep end for some reason.

Well this argument is based on your argument that since Arthas is KT's master the necro class should be based on him. But Arthas isn't the top of the pyramid.

So if KT is the "quintessential necromancer" because he's the master of the cult of the damned, what does that make the LK who is the god of the cult of the damned?

It makes him the god of the cult. You just said so. Why are you asking me?

Uh, for two reasons:

1. They didn't want to make Warlocks irrelevant.
2. Blizzard (rightly) figured that players would rather play as the Lich King instead of his weaker subordinates (like KT).

The DK class itself isn't muddled. It's simply a "super Necromancer" instead of a basic necromancer. Advocates for a necromancer class want a basic necromancer instead of the Arch Necromancer that we received.

Reason 1 is okay. That's my reason as well.

2 makes no sense. You are talking about 2 different classes. Because Arthas and WC3 DKs are not soupep up necromancers. They are Death Knights. That's like saying why do we have priests when paladins are just better versions of them.

[Cracked]

No please, let's not dilute classes more just to accommodate another one like we did with meta for DH from warlock. I'd be much happier if Blizzard actually came up with an original idea. Tinket is a community favorite because it doesn't have to borrow from any class that currently exists. Something like that.

Besides, Death Knight is literally a necromancer that is also a knight.

[Kiradyn]

His reasoning is that since Arthas is the stronger necromancer he should be the base of a necro class

What's wrong with that argument? Wouldn't Shaman prefer to be based on Thrall than an Oomlot Shaman?

2 makes no sense. You are talking about 2 different classes. Because Arthas and WC3 DKs are not soupep up necromancers.

Actually they were. They had life-controlling abilities and could raise the dead.

[Darktbs]

Frost magic was pushed on the DK because of the Lich concept. You know, because the DK was designed to be a armored Necromancer.
Then why do they have the ultimate Lich ability, and incorporate a combination of Frost and Necromancer ability (just like Lichs)?

THEY DON'T, THEY FUCKING DON'T
YOU ACKOWLEDGE THAT POSTS AGO!!

FROST DKS DON'T HAVE DEATH AND DECAY.

You do understand that their creator is the Lich King right?

And how is this relevant?

Shadowlands is based on the concept of the spirit world. Shamans, Priests, DKs, Warlocks, and other classes pull plenty of concepts from there.

Except Warlocks pull jack shit from the shadowlands and the other examples are Movement speed buffs.

Priests is the only one that backs up your point and IS ONE SPELL.

Yeah, except all of those classes you mentioned are extremely different from each other. Necromancers are pretty much synonymous with DKs thematically, and are functionally similar to Warlocks.

Idk, i heard a different argumment BEFORE Dh were introduced.You are just basing the Necromancer for what it is instead of what it could be.

Uh, the Lich's design is already within the DK class. Which is why DKs have a Frost spec in the first place.

You are just playing dumb at this point.

You do know that the Frost spec still utilizes ranged Frost spells and spreads diseases and shadow magic right? That's not even to mention the fact that they can summon an undead dragon to fight for them.

1 Disease, 1 Ranged Frost spell, 1 spells that uses Shadow magic and good that you brought Summon sindragosa, because it backs my point they are based around the Frost Wyrm.
Slow, hit hard, freeze and dragons.

Last I checked, Warriors can't do that.

Oblitarate, Frost Strike, Frostscythe, Obliteration, Shattering Strikes,Ineroxable assault, Hungering Rune weapon,Frozen pulse.

Where does a Lich used any of this or similar?

Shadow magic is broad. Holy magic is broad. Necromancy is not.

"I don't know how to answer your question so im gonna say its invalid"

[Deleted]

never going to happen

[Darktbs]

No please, let's not dilute classes more just to accommodate another one like we did with meta for DH from warlock. I'd be much happier if Blizzard actually came up with an original idea. Tinket is a community favorite because it doesn't have to borrow from any class that currently exists. Something like that.

Besides, Death Knight is literally a necromancer that is also a knight.

But Tinkers will steal my Hunter's Missiles, Mines and Bombs!!

/Sarcasm

[Rhamses]

THEY DON'T, THEY FUCKING DON'T
YOU ACKOWLEDGE THAT POSTS AGO!!

FROST DKS DON'T HAVE DEATH AND DECAY.

They had it for the majority of the DK's lifespan, and D&D is still present within the class itself. Further nothing stops Blizzard from simply putting it back into the Frost spec. FYI: Balance changes from expansion to expansion doesn't negate the origins of the spec itself.

And how is this relevant?

Kind of hard to argue that a class based on a character called the Lich King has nothing to do with Lichs.

Except Warlocks pull jack shit from the shadowlands and the other examples are Movement speed buffs.

Priests is the only one that backs up your point and IS ONE SPELL.

And what specific spells would a potential Necro class pull from the "Shadowlands" to make them viable?

Idk, i heard a different argumment BEFORE Dh were introduced.You are just basing the Necromancer for what it is instead of what it could be.

Warlocks were never DHs though. DKs are pretty clearly a type of Necromancer. The WC3 hero itself was a type of Necromancer.

You are just playing dumb at this point.

1 Disease, 1 Ranged Frost spell, 1 spells that uses Shadow magic...

You're forgetting the PvP talents, and the artifact talents.

and good that you brought Summon sindragosa, because it backs my point they are based around the Frost Wyrm.
Slow, hit hard, freeze and dragons.

Commanding a dragon doesn't make you a dragon.

Oblitarate, Frost Strike, Frostscythe, Obliteration, Shattering Strikes,Ineroxable assault, Hungering Rune weapon,Frozen pulse.

Where does a Lich used any of this or similar?

I'm pretty sure that I've stated multiple times that a DK is far more than a mere Lich.

They're based on the king of Lichs after all.

[Deleted]

What's wrong with that argument? Wouldn't Shaman prefer to be based on Thrall than an Oomlot Shaman?

And they are. What he's saying would be basing shamans on Ragnaros instead of Thrall

[zhero]

- The Unholy Death Knight will also go to its roots in WCIII and consist of a DoT melee spec that spreads illnesses. No more raising the dead, that will be left to the Necromancer as it has always been.

did you even play warcraft 3? raising a bunch of dead was their ultimate ability.

[Darktbs]

They had it for the majority of the DK's lifespan, and D&D is still present within the class itself. Further nothing stops Blizzard from simply putting it back into the Frost spec. FYI: Balance changes from expansion to expansion doesn't negate the origins of the spec itself.

Yes it does, because it changes the class fantasy as well.

Shadow Priests now being in touch with the Void, Demo warlocks no longer transform into demons but rather Summon then and Survival beign based around Rexxar, A mellee hunter.

Kind of hard to argue that a class based on a character called the Lich King has nothing to do with Lichs.

The class is based around Arthas the Death knight that became the Lich King, despite said king being classified with more classes then anyone else.

Just Like Dh are based off Illidan but he is a Dh and a Mage.

Blizzard makes characters that are multiple classes at once but base the classes after them anyway.

Thrall is a Shaman and a Warrior

Tyrande is a Priest and a Hunter.

Why you are making this a big deal?

And what specific spells would a potential Necro class pull from the "Shadowlands" to make them viable?

Remember the Shade Unit from Wc3?They are confirmed in the Dk starting area to appear in the Shadowlands.
"Shade spaw"
Spaw a Dark shade to attack the enemy.

"Shadow's Graps"
Dark claws from the Shadowlands try to graps the enemy, slowing then for 70% for 5 secs, if 2 or more shades are attacking, the enemy is stunned.

"Haunting Nightmares"
A dot that has a change of spawning a Shade.

I could go on, but i believe this is enough to prove my point.

Warlocks were never DHs though. DKs are pretty clearly a type of Necromancer. The WC3 hero itself was a type of Necromancer.

Depends on the definition.

You're forgetting the PvP talents, and the artifact talents.

You mean cystralized Swords, Summon Sindragosa or Frozen Soul.

One is related to the Frost Wyrm and the other two to the Frost Warrior aspect of the Dk?

Or the Pvp that has, 1 Disease, 3 that support the Frost Warrior aspect and 1 that supports the Lich one.
Wonder who is strongest aspect?

Commanding a dragon doesn't make you a dragon.

But somehow, Lichborne transforms you into a Lich.

And when i said it was the Frost Wyrm?I said that inspired him.

I'm pretty sure that I've stated multiple times that a DK is far more than a mere Lich.

You also said they were based off the Lich besides me giving clear evidences that this is not the case and if it was, its no longer present on the spec.

They're based on the king of Lichs after all.

Based off Arthas the Death Knight that became the Lich King.So wouldn't Lich be superior to a Dk since the strongest Dk ascended to a Lich?