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  1. #1
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    Why so many sexual harassment cases in US, not UK?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42070575

    There are huge differences between UK and US media law - does this explain why more Americans are being accused of sexual harassment?

    On 5 October, Harvey Weinstein was accused of sexual abuse and the dam broke.

    Since then, dozens of well-known Americans have been accused of sexual misconduct of some kind. This isn't drip-drip. It's a flood.

    The list includes film stars such as Kevin Spacey, politicians such as Roy Moore, and journalists such as Mark Halperin.

    The deluge of allegations swelled this week, engulfing big media names.

    While people in other countries have also been accused, the majority of cases are American.

    One reason could be US media law and how it differs from other countries.

    In the UK, there is a key point in libel law that explains a lot.

    When someone sues, they don't have to prove the story is wrong.

    The publisher - for example, the newspaper or website - has to prove their story is right.

    This means, before publishing, the media needs a water-tight case. To accuse someone of sexual misconduct, they would normally need proof (such as a recording) or a witness prepared to testify in court.

    In cases of sexual misconduct, both things are hard to find.

    There were, for example, rumours of Jimmy Savile's sexual abuse for years. Louis Theroux even asked Savile about them in 2000.

    But the British media - worried about being sued - didn't publish. It wasn't until Savile died that ITV broke the story (in UK law, a dead person cannot be defamed).

    You don't even need to name someone to be sued in the UK.

    In 2012, BBC Newsnight wrongly linked Lord McAlpine to child sex abuse, without naming him.

    He sued and within 13 days won £185,000 in damages.

    In the US, it's far harder to sue for libel. The reason is 226 years old, but as relevant as ever.

    The first amendment to the US constitution - adopted in 1791 - protects freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

    It means American media law is "radically different" to the UK, says Stuart Karle, a professor at Columbia Journalism School in New York and former general counsel for the Wall Street Journal.

    "In the US, the burden is on the plaintiff - the person alleging that he or she has been defamed - to prove the statement is false," he says.

    So - compared to the UK - the burden of proof is flipped. Americans are less likely to sue, so US media are more likely to break the story.

    Indeed, a New York Times editorial in May said "hardly anyone jousts with the (New York) Times when it comes to formally asserting libel".

    And - for celebrities - there's another hurdle to clear when suing in the US.

    When a public official (such as a government employee) or public figure (such as a celebrity) sues for libel, they must prove "actual malice".

    "Actual malice basically means the journalist lied," says Professor Karle.

    "Either the journalist published a story they knew was false - or they acted with reckless disregard over whether it was true or false.

    "That basically means - you lied."

    But - despite the bar being higher - it doesn't mean American media has carte blanche. And, when they do get it wrong, it can cost millions of dollars.

    In 2014, Rolling Stone magazine covered an alleged gang rape at the University of Virginia in 2012.

    The story was retracted in 2015 and a university official - who handled sexual assault cases - sued for defamation. She was awarded $3m in damages.

    Further back, a prosecutor sued the Philadelphia Inquirer over articles published in 1973. He won $34m.

    "Sometimes you hear 'in the United States, reputation isn't valued'," says Professor Karle.

    "But the US laws are highly protective of reputation. The damages can be massive - far, far greater than one could get in the UK.

    "So you have more (defamation) cases in the UK and more stories that aren't published or broadcast.

    "But in the US, if a plaintiff wins, the potential damages are in the millions - or tens of millions."

    For this reason - and for reasons of good journalism - American media often goes to great lengths to verify accusations.

    In their recent story about television presenter Charlie Rose, the Washington Post spoke to eight women - three of them on the record.

    In breaking the story about comedian Louis CK, the New York Times reported accusations from five women - four of them named.

    And - in an article about New York Times reporter Glenn Thrush - Vox writer Laura McGann recounted her own experience, interviewed three other women, and spoke to 40 people in the wider media.

    Which system is better - the UK or the US - depends on your point of view.

    If you've been wrongly accused, you may yearn for the British system - where publishing is riskier.

    If you're a victim, you may prefer the US system - where the constitution protects freedom of speech.

    Either way, the effect is clear.

    The US has a flood of cases. In the UK, it remains drip-drip.
    So what's your opinion on this

  2. #2
    people in the UK Are still to afraid come forward? who knows. Personally I'm tired of people not waiting for proof / legal system before crucifying the person being accused. By all means if found guilty do whatever idc.. but innocent till proven guilty is a thing
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  3. #3
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    Frankly, living in a bit more remote place, i have to say - USA looks like rapist country, based on the media.

    So many students get raped there. Like what, 1 out of 3?
    Most of the world is fine, but damn, the States... Terror is for real... I am not willing to visit the States as of late.

    It feels like there's a sexual "marauder" behind every bush, just waiting to penetrate you.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SadWarrior View Post
    Frankly, living in a bit more remote place, i have to say - USA looks like rapist country, based on the media.

    So many students get raped there. Like what, 1 out of 3?
    Most of the world is fine, but damn, the States... Terror is for real... I am not willing to visit the States as of late.

    It feels like there's a sexual "marauder" behind every bush, just waiting to penetrate you.
    They really believe that is the case as well. At work, at schools, they always ask women if they feel safe walking alone, as if there is some evil rapist behind every corner looking to get them. It's much easier to just lie to women and get them out of their pants. However, in a year or so, that will be sexual abuse.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SadWarrior View Post

    So many students get raped there. Like what, 1 out of 3?
    Not even remotely close. People need to stop repeating horrible bullshit like that.

  6. #6
    Sex isn't as taboo as it is in the United States, so we're very confused about it all. What we are considering victimizing in the United States right now is the first 10-15 seconds of a Benny Hill episode.

  7. #7
    Oh so we're just going to pretend shit like Rotherham didn't happen?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-s...shire-28939089


    It def happens in the UK. It's just that people are still afraid to come forward, and when they do nothing happens since the police are afraid to intervene because they fear being labeled "racist"

    The report found: "Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so."

    Failures by those charged with protecting children happened despite three reports between 2002 and 2006 which both the council and police were aware of, and "which could not have been clearer in the description of the situation in Rotherham".

    Prof Jay said the first of these reports was "effectively suppressed" because senior officers did not believe the data. The other two were ignored, she said.

    The inquiry team found that in the early-2000s when a group of professionals attempted to monitor a number of children believed to be at risk, "managers gave little help or support to their efforts".

    The report revealed some people at a senior level in the police and children's social care thought the extent of the problem was being "exaggerated".

  8. #8
    Jimmy Savile exploited the slibel laws in Britain. When an outraged parent would come forward, Jimmy would threaten to sue. The victims were usually poor and Jimmy was rich so Jimmy was left free to molest for ages, people only came forward after he died.

    In the US, slibel laws are weak so we don't have that.
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  9. #9
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    A lot of these claims of sexual abuse are from abuse of power in the entertainment industry, the US entertainment industry dwarfs ours, far more than just the difference in population sizes would account for.

    There was a story some years back by Myleene Klass, who said a senior Hollywood figure had propositioned her and offered her what amounted to a non-disclosure sex contract to be his mistress, it was dismissed at the time by the Guardian as her being an attention seeker, that person turned out to be Harvey Weinstein. These people are in a whole different league of sexual predator to people that have porn on their work computer or grab a knee, Hollywood seems to have industrialised sexual abuse.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    A lot of these claims of sexual abuse are from abuse of power in the entertainment industry, the US entertainment industry dwarfs ours, far more than just the difference in population sizes would account for.

    There was a story some years back by Myleene Klass, who said a senior Hollywood figure had propositioned her and offered her what amounted to a non-disclosure sex contract to be his mistress, it was dismissed at the time by the Guardian as her being an attention seeker, that person turned out to be Harvey Weinstein. These people are in a whole different league of sexual predator to people that have porn on their work computer or grab a knee, Hollywood seems to have industrialised sexual abuse.
    I would say that it has a lot to do with what is the norm. America doesn't have legal prostitution or sex dungeons so the "industrialization" point I think is invalid. The United States is considering even looking at a woman as sexual assault right now. The Weinstein case is valid, as well as a few others, but say for instance a case like Al Franken wouldn't even make it on the airwaves I imagine. Trust me it happens everywhere, but you're hearing more about it from the United States because our definition of it is broadening at an absurd rate. Given our high emphasis on faux morality in the United States it is a much louder, bigger issue than what it would be elsewhere.
    Last edited by Hellrime; 2017-11-22 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Clarifying a sentence

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    people in the UK Are still to afraid come forward? who knows. Personally I'm tired of people not waiting for proof / legal system before crucifying the person being accused. By all means if found guilty do whatever idc.. but innocent till proven guilty is a thing
    I agree. I mean it's like we're suppose to right away take the accuser's side and trust everything he/she says without question and if you don't then you're wrong and a bad person.

    OT: There's probably not as many cases in the UK because no one is saying anything. Maybe they're too scared too like all these people here coming out with these claims. You can't tell me that UK is perfectly clean from sexual assault crimes.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    People in the US love being offended. People in the US love litigation. Add the two together and you have this mess.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Triforcewolf View Post
    I agree. I mean it's like we're suppose to right away take the accuser's side and trust everything he/she says without question and if you don't then you're wrong and a bad person.

    OT: There's probably not as many cases in the UK because no one is saying anything. Maybe they're too scared too like all these people here coming out with these claims. You can't tell me that UK is perfectly clean from sexual assault crimes.
    The article isn't saying that

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SadWarrior View Post
    Frankly, living in a bit more remote place, i have to say - USA looks like rapist country, based on the media.

    So many students get raped there. Like what, 1 out of 3?
    Most of the world is fine, but damn, the States... Terror is for real... I am not willing to visit the States as of late.

    It feels like there's a sexual "marauder" behind every bush, just waiting to penetrate you.
    its in your media's best interest to make USA look bad. hell even our own media gets higher rating when doing so.

    also UK doesnt have a hold on any industry that i can think of. only thing we might hear about is if a SOCCER player did something wrong, after that you pretty much have nobody of importance.

  15. #15
    Because in our hyper pc culture, people are conflating minor things (and yeah, someone touching your ass at a photo op is a small thing not worth losing your shit about-if you hang onto it for 10 years it's a sign that you have all kinds of other problems) with actual sexual assault. Once it was decided that any petty complaint could get someone in the news and score potential 7 figure compensation, well, you'd be a fool not to cash in if you had a complaint (or make one up if you don't).

    Don't get me wrong, ACTUAL sexual assault is horrible and those who do it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. What we have today, tho, is just a useless witch hunt. Sexual harassment: 2017s version of Mcarthyism.

  16. #16
    Most of the people who are doing it are powerful. Power corrupts people. People in Hollywood are among the most powerful people on the planet.

    It's pretty obvious if you know anything about power and the cultures surrounding it.

    Can't wait for it to trickle down to the rap scene. That's a shitstorm waiting to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  17. #17
    SJW's and other Liberal extremists are now turning on each other and eating Thier own......it glorious
    Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SadWarrior View Post
    Frankly, living in a bit more remote place, i have to say - USA looks like rapist country, based on the media.

    So many students get raped there. Like what, 1 out of 3?
    Most of the world is fine, but damn, the States... Terror is for real... I am not willing to visit the States as of late.

    It feels like there's a sexual "marauder" behind every bush, just waiting to penetrate you.
    1/3 students don't get raped here. Our definitions are so loose that someone checking out someone's ass would almost be included as sexual assault in those kinds of surveys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    People in the US love being offended. People in the US love litigation. Add the two together and you have this mess.
    This fucking comment is so incredibly perfect and correct. +1 internets for you.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoronic View Post
    its in your media's best interest to make USA look bad. hell even our own media gets higher rating when doing so.

    also UK doesnt have a hold on any industry that i can think of. only thing we might hear about is if a SOCCER player did something wrong, after that you pretty much have nobody of importance.
    They did have the pedophile ring in parliament. Their politicians also tried to cover up the pedophile rape gangs in Rotherham recently. I guess they just can't get enough of them children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  20. #20
    Idk, I see benefits and drawbacks of both sets of libel laws. The article spells it out pretty clearly at the end there.

    Personally I like that it's easier for victims to call people out in America as it can prevent a predator from preying on more people. That said, while false accusations are statistically rare, the thought of imprisoning an innocent person is horrible to me. So I guess I'm kind of split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coombs View Post
    It's much easier to just lie to women and get them out of their pants.
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but you should probably stop it.

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