Classic servers and access to retired mounts (and mogs)

[mhdoe]

In my opinion I fell their should be Current retail and classic retail and neither should have any communication (except battle.net which can not be helped), achievement, Item, mount, etc. crossover they should both be treated 100% different from each other.

[Maggibesti]

If Blizzard is going to open official Vanilla servers, I expect they will feature a lot of vanity items that are currently exceedingly rare. I'm thinking primarily of the original epic class mounts that were retired in 1.4, but a lot of other things fall into this category, from the Zul'Gurub mounts to T3 and Naxx crafted gear, and perhaps even the Amani Battle Bear if legacy servers continue on to Burning Crusade.

Since I primarily play the game to collect stuff, I can't help but wonder... what sort of effect should we see from this on the Standard servers?

I'm sure many people will want to use the Classic servers to add legacy items to their Standard collections. It makes sense in a way. Since these items will be at least temporarily, if not permanently available on Vanilla servers, their value as keepsakes for people who used to play back in the day will be greatly diminished. Right now, your only chance of seeing a Green Kodo or an Ancient Frostsaber is to encounter a veteran player lucky enough to have kept one. With Classic servers, all you need to do is log there and you will potentially see them everywhere.

That being said, I don't think the people who lobbied for Classic would like their game to be modernized with mount and transmog tabs just for the sake of collectors, and many collectors might not enjoy feeling like they "have to" play Classic intensively to get something they want to use in Standard.

So I propose two potential solutions that would make everyone happy:

1. Simply reintroduce these mounts and transmogs to the Standard game, or change the means of acquisition from BMAH to actual gameplay. They can come from current content rather the old vendor or instance. They can even have new names, in order to preserve the integrity of the originals, simply add new mounts using those models. Since horses are receiving a graphic update in BFA, kodos already received one, and other mounts may get one too in time, the extra colors are particularly desirable.

2. Add hidden achievements on Classic servers that translate into rewards on Standard. For example, leveling a char to 60 will grant you a token in Standard WoW that you can exchange for one of the original epic mounts, killing KT on a Classic realms grants you a token you can exchange for a full T3 set in Standard, etc. This is more of a middle ground solution. There is no visible intrusion on Classic realms in the form of a Collector tab, and players still need to invest somewhat in their Classic characters to get the rewards, but a bit less than it would take to actually buy the mount or collect individual items.

What do you guys think? How would you like this handled?


P.S. To edgy Vanilla lovers who think Vanilla mounts and mogs should remain exclusive to Vanilla servers, don't be hypocrites. You wanted access to retired content in a way you could enjoy, and Blizzard listened to you. There is no reason why collectors shouldn't have the same expectations - only we don't want the gameplay, just the vanity items.

First off, it will allow everyone to get this stuff, so it will no longer be rare or special, everyone will have a zulian tiger/raptor, everyone will have t3 transmogs etc. I don't play retail anymore, but I respect those that gained this during this time and want it to remain special, and not something everyone will have access to. Also second it will bring WAY too many people who will be playing just for these no longer obtainable items etc, and as soon as they get them they'll disappear, taking potential mounts items from other players. Like if someone from a guild I would be in gets zulian tiger and than leaves cause he just got what he wanted it would be rather lame, and that is what you would see a lot, people playing there with the only purpose to get what they want, taking it from someone else who really wants it and wants to play on there.

[Coconut]

Don't think you understand that TRADING in the old mount was very dumb. People knew the old ones weren't going to be in the game anymore. The new mounts didn't cost much gold. I bought a new mount as well as kept my old mount.

Careful, your private server experience is showing. Mount price wasn't changed until 1.12.1., a year and a half after the original mounts were replaced. That's a long time to keep your mount before buying a second one cheap. Maybe you're thinking about Nostalrius?

You're not going to get old mounts on live for playing the new classic server. It's just not going to happen. Why? Because Blizzard KNOWS they're a badge of honor. That's why they added the achievement for it. That's why they keep removing mounts that are harder to get. It's their design philosophy that you have to fight against. Even if you can convince them, you and them have to fight hundreds of thousands of people who got the mounts. Just not going to happen.

Nice posturing. A while ago it would have been justified. But now? Not so much.

You see, you're not the only one who's smart. I know, Blizzard knows, and many other people know that accurate Classic servers should have these mounts for at least 6 months if they are to be accurate (maybe even forever).

And yeah, sure, Classic didn't have a mount tab, so they can't carry over without changing the game. But late TBC did have one. What's going to happen once Legacy servers progress that far? Oh yeah! All those smart people who thought to pick up exclusive mounts will ask for the collections to be merged. Because they earned them. And people know how to pursue their best interest. This is 100% inescapable now.

So what would a smart person do? Look ahead, and try to resolve the issue from the start. Otherwise you know Classic servers would be invaded by smart people like you who will collect stuff, bide their time... and start crying for a collection merge once they hit critical mass.

[urasim]

Careful, your private server experience is showing. Mount price wasn't changed until 1.12.1., a year and a half after the original mounts were replaced. That's a long time to keep your mount before buying a second one cheap. Maybe you're thinking about Nostalrius?

What? It was the riding skill that was expensive. You don't know what you're talking about. I've never played on a private server. If you didn't openly tell me you never played classic before, it's now insanely obvious that you never played classic.

Oh yeah! All those smart people who thought to pick up exclusive mounts will ask for the collections to be merged.

-snip-

Bla bla bla.

That's not going to happen. Why? Because Blizzard hasn't done that with any Alpha build. People earned shit on there and they aren't on live! Same goes for Beta and PTR. Nothing is brought to live servers.

No, what you want will NEVER HAPPEN.

[Coconut]

What? It was the riding skill that was expensive. You don't know what you're talking about. I've never played on a private server. If you didn't openly tell me you never played classic before, it's now insanely obvious that you never played classic.

Umm.... here you go:

Patch 1.12.1 notes:

The riding skill has been changed. A riding skill of 75 is now needed to ride level 40 mounts and a skill of 150 for level 60 mounts. Those that already have mounts will automatically be granted the appropriate level skill.

FAQ Blue post by Hortus:

There will be effectively two riding skill levels, Apprentice and Journeyman. The cost for the riding skill will be significantly higher than it previously was, however this is offset by a drastically lower cost for the actual mount.

For current players with mounts there will be a seamless transition to the new system. You will continue to have your mount; you will continue to be able to use it, etc. What this change does for players who don't yet have a mount or an epic mount is take the emphasis off of the mount itself, and put it on the riding skill. This helps give players access to more variety without requiring a large monetary investment if they, for instance, just want to pick a different colored horse.

Player-written FAQ:

'What are the changes to the mounts and riding system?'

In a nutshell, the cost of learning to ride a mount and the cost of purchasing a mount have been swapped. Instead of paying 80g for a regular mount (undiscounted) and 20g (undiscounted) to learn riding for that mount, you will pay 20g for a regular mount and 80g to learn the riding skill. Instead of paying 1000g for an epic mount (undiscounted), you will pay 100g (undiscounted) for the epic mount and 1000g (undiscounted) for the riding skill.

Source.

At least now we know your Ivory Raptor story was fabricated, so you don't really speak for any Old School Ride owners.

[Vorecien]

I agree with @Rorcanna. There may be some connection between the two servers, but definitely not for mounts and pets.

Mounts had very few ties in the game systems back then. We didn't see the mount tab until Wrath of the Lich King. How could they allow a player to use a retired mount that exists in a bag on one character on one of their Classic realms? Back then you didn't even "learn" mounts, you bought it and right-clicked the item to cast a spell.

[urasim]

Umm.... here you go:

-snip-

No, you're right. I didn't remember the change because it didn't effect me. It doesn't change the argument. You're not getting that shit on live servers.

I'm sure others can verify the mounts were BoE and people could trade/sell the raptor. But my argument doesn't depend on if it can or can't be verified.

[Hellrime]

Nope
/10char

[urasim]

I bought my Gnome a Human rep horse for 1000 gold before they changed things. Before 1.12.

Rep discount didn't exist till 2.3 so it was indeed the full 1000.

PvP discount existed. Not when I bought my mount though.

Rank 3, Sergeant / Sergeant - Superior-quality cloak, 10% discount on all goods and repairs from your faction's NPCs

[Teri]

PvP discount existed. Not when I bought my mount though.

Could have been 800 then , 12+ years ago , still 1000 base price for a single mount pre-1.12.

10% honored+ rep / 10% pvp rank discount might have applied.

Nevertheless, we had a few people with the old school mounts in guild/pvp team.

[urasim]

Could have been 800 then , 12+ years ago , still 1000 base price for a single mount pre-1.12.

10% honored+ rep / 10% pvp rank discount might have applied.

I know. I have one of the old school mounts. I just swapped the price for the skill and mount in my head. Honest mistake since it was 12 years ago.

[Coconut]

I know. I have one of the old school mounts. I just swapped the price for the skill and mount in my head. Honest mistake since it was 12 years ago.

Friendly advice: honest mistakes won't look as bad if you don't start the discussion acting like you know everything. I think if you actually pay attention to my previous arguments instead judging them rashly, you may find that they also have more weight than you give them credit for.

[urasim]

Friendly advice: honest mistakes won't look as bad if you don't start the discussion acting like you know everything. I think if you actually pay attention to my previous arguments instead judging them rashly, you may find that they also have more weight than you give them credit for.

Sure thing buddy. Your "arguments" were lacking and they go directly against Blizzard's philosophy(not to mentions hundreds of thousands of people that will be pissed if this was changed). Go on and tell me the weight of the argument that I'm somehow missing... And by weight I'm assuming you mean credibility.

[Coconut]

Sure thing buddy. Your "arguments" were lacking and they go directly against Blizzard's philosophy(not to mentions hundreds of thousands of people that will be pissed if this was changed). Go on and tell me the weight of the argument that I'm somehow missing... And by weight I'm assuming you mean credibility.

When it's making you special it's only 1 in several million who owns these mounts, when they are supposed to be pissed at Blizzard, they're in the hundreds of thousads. I bet Blizzard wishes they had a few hundred billion accounts.

Where were these people when the Zulian Panther was introduced? Or the Bone-White Primal Raptor? Out of your hundreds of thousands of people, many stopped playing, others don't care, and others would gladly trade their "badge of honor" for the ability to get a few more of these mounts, especially if the models are updated. And then there are the even more numerous people who did have those mounts and traded or destroyed them. I bet they would be happy to get them back.

As for my arguments, no need to reiterate, you can go back and read them.

[urasim]

When it's making you special it's only 1 in several million who owns these mounts

THAT SPECIFIC MOUNT. I'm one in millions that has that mount.

when they are supposed to be pissed at Blizzard, they're in the hundreds of thousads. I bet Blizzard wishes they had a few hundred billion accounts.

A low estimate of everyone that has mounts that are unobtainable. There might be more there might be less.

These stupid FAILED "gotcha" remarks from you are pathetic.

Where were these people when the Zulian Panther was introduced? Or the Bone-White Primal Raptor?

Those aren't the same mounts. They don't care. Next worthless statement, please.

Out of your hundreds of thousands of people, many stopped playing, others don't care, and others would gladly trade their "badge of honor" for the ability to get a few more of these mounts, especially if the models are updated. And then there are the even more numerous people who did have those mounts and traded or destroyed them. I bet they would be happy to get them back.

They can get them back. I petitioned and got back several items that weren't on the item retrieval page. Like the luffa that I destroyed after Kara became obsolete. I got that back recently for nostalgia.

[Master Guns]

I truly hope that adding classic servers does NOT let us gain access to things on live that we didn't have before. If you didn't play in classic, you have no right to those items. Period.

[Coconut]

THAT SPECIFIC MOUNT. I'm one in millions that has that mount.

There were 14 mounts total, and yours was one of the most likely to be kept. That means what? About one hundred of you who has either one? So basically in a sea of millions of players nobody will hear you complain?

A low estimate of everyone that has mounts that are unobtainable. There might be more there might be less.

If you mean anyone with any rare mount from whenever, not everyone agrees with you, you know? I have a lot of retired mounts and mogs, and I am firmly against removing content. The whole point of it is basically to blackmail you to do X or Y during a content lull anyway. Basically all the collectors I know would let other people get access to all the exclusive stuff they own if that meant they could get the one thing that they don't have. They're single-minded completionists. Don't count on their support.

And I'm talking about mounts that were an actual challenge to get, not only "I played at the right time and did what everyone else was doing" (I have plenty of those too). Can't you just be happy with your statue, by the way?

Those aren't the same mounts. They don't care. Next worthless statement, please.

As far as I'm concerned, fine. Remove a spot from its back and call it something else, I don't mind. Glad we can find a compromise!

Still, that's not just about customization and collecting. It's not what started the argument. It's a question of how Classic servers will impact such mounts and vice-versa. It's easy to tell me now that I shouldn't get this mount because I didn't play Vanilla (on retail). It will be a lot harder to tell Classic players that they can't transfer their mounts over 3 or 4 years from now. And you can't stop tourists messing with the servers trying to get them anyway unless they know with 100% certitude they're not going transfer, or if they won't need to look there - because they'll add them in Live as well.

[ComputerNerd]

There are at least two things we can agree on. Maybe we're not so different after all?

People don't ask for those mounts to feel special. People ask for them because mounts are a part of character customization, and those are extra colors that would be nice to use. The requests dipped after Cata and MoP because those models showed their age and people didn't want to use them anymore. Also, the best looking ones, the ones that were really worth getting, did get lookalikes:

If they don't matter, there would not be the fuss.
Plain and simple.
Leave them alone, and leave them in vanilla if they do.
You can't say they aren't special if you wont leave them where they are.

You say that I am wrong, but here is a post stating exactly what I described.
The only thing that encourages this one person to play it with dedication is a mount.

Who cares what the reasons are if they get people to play with who actually remember how gameplay was in Classic at least a bit?

You know, you need a critical mass for an MMO to work with, not only overall, but also at a given time of the day. It's not much fun if you look for a group but cannot find anyone because... you know.

But these things are quite hypothetical because I don't expect them to allow farming mounts and transmog for your retail collection in Classic. They could probably make some promo thing for a special title or whatever, but this is a totally different thing. Like, adding removed mounts back into classic and let people unlock these on their retail account if they acquire such mounts with a regular Classic character. But I would not even count on that.

At the moment, I expect them to re-create Classic in the state of the last patch before TBC regarding game mechanics, but probably not every dungeon unlocked yet. This way, they could save themselves the hassle of maintaining gameplay patches, but could create some progression in content over about 1-2 years. I don't expect QoL features being added at all, except B-net interface which would have the potential for grouping up with friends more easily. And I don't expect that a collection mode would be added.

Thus, Classic would be for me some kind of memory recreation, and even for this it would not work out at all. I know too much about this game, I still remember some quests / questlines from this time. I did Onyxia attunement on some alliance characters. I raided MC, ZG and AQ20 and dimly remember the strategies for all bosses. I know where to find guides for classes and such. Classic is not much of use for me. I can have guild events in retail just as well. The only thing which would motivate me to play this version again with some dedication is this one mount. I have everything else I wanted.

If that is their sole incentive, what happens when they get it, and how do they treat content not progressing that aim.

People should be there for the right reasons, simple as that.
If you want the good experience, that is why someone needs to be there.

[Coconut]

If they don't matter, there would not be the fuss.

Yes, they "matter". They offer more customization to your characters through the mounts they use. Also, reintroducing them in Standard doesn't mean they would be 10 gold off the vendor, like the other epic mounts. They can cost 100k each, to reflect the steep price in Vanilla, or 5k Timeless Coins, or they can require you to level a character to 60 on Classic realms if they choose to go down that path. Reintroducing them doesn't necessarily mean complete trivialization.

People should be there for the right reasons, simple as that.
If you want the good experience, that is why someone needs to be there.

Why is it a bad thing that people have goals in WoW? Should they play out of religious conviction? Social gameplay is still about goals: the goals of your friends. I often farm transmog and mounts with my friends and I have made friends farming transmog and mounts (the key here though is not to be TOO exclusive, so people can actually stomach doing it twice and to dissuade ninjas).

[ComputerNerd]

Yes, they "matter". They offer more customization to your characters through the mounts they use. Also, reintroducing them in Standard doesn't mean they would be 10 gold off the vendor, like the other epic mounts. They can cost 100k each, to reflect the steep price in Vanilla, or 5k Timeless Coins, or they can require you to level a character to 60 on Classic realms if they choose to go down that path. Reintroducing them doesn't necessarily mean complete trivialization.



Why is it a bad thing that people have goals in WoW? Should they play out of religious conviction? Social gameplay is still about goals: the goals of your friends. I often farm transmog and mounts with my friends and I have made friends farming transmog and mounts (the key here though is not to be TOO exclusive, so people can actually stomach doing it twice and to dissuade ninjas).

You contradicted yourself, simple as that.
You can't actually decide whether those mounts matter or not.

With all due respect, that's snowflake thinking. There's no "badge of honor" about any of those mounts, nothing intrinsically special that warranted their removal, like Challenge Modes, Elite Gladiator sets, etc. When compared to other things in the game, they are completely ordinary.

You said they matter, and that they don't matter.
If you can't even decide to be consistent on that, then you can't tell me I am wrong.

There is a huge difference between a goal in vanilla, and playing it only to improve your live account.
I even provided that quote showing exactly what I said, that the mount could be the sole motivation for a player, and you can't tell me what happens when that motivation is no longer present.
Something you denied could possibly happen was openly admitted by another player.

There are absolutely the wrong reasons to be playing classic.
And it being purely a means to a reward, that is one.