Sunreavers and Jaina

[Koryn123]

The difference is, Garros hwas on the horde at that time, the one who wanted it to conquer the world. The Alliance had no desire to use it, but only wanted to keep it out of Garrosh hands.
So Jaina (Kirin Tor) decided to assist that faction for the greater good. The whole "lesser of two evils" concept.

That's perfectly fine. The only mistake is that Jaina left out the step where she declares Dalaran for the Alliance before she devoted Dalaran resources to helping the Alliance in any kind of Horde/Alliance conflict. And leaving out that crucial step makes Jaina a complete hypocrite by violating her neutrality.

[Darktbs]

That's perfectly fine. The only mistake is that Jaina left out the step where she declares Dalaran for the Alliance before she devoted Dalaran resources to helping the Alliance in any kind of Horde/Alliance conflict. And leaving out that crucial step makes Jaina a complete hypocrite by violating her neutrality.

You mean helping protect the bell?Which is by no means a act of treason?

If it is then we must count Aethas helping with the study of the Sha in Silvermoon

[Combatbutler]

You mean helping protect the bell?Which is by no means a act of treason?

If it is then we must count Aethas helping with the study of the Sha in Silvermoon

Aethas helping Silvermoon with the Sha is breaking neutrality as well.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The difference is, Garros hwas on the horde at that time, the one who wanted it to conquer the world. The Alliance had no desire to use it, but only wanted to keep it out of Garrosh hands.
So Jaina (Kirin Tor) decided to assist that faction for the greater good. The whole "lesser of two evils" concept.

Then they should have locked it in Dal, or atleast told the Horde they didn't intend to use it, not that the Horde would have believed them

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You mean helping protect the bell?Which is by no means a act of treason?

If it is then we must count Aethas helping with the study of the Sha in Silvermoon

People are operating under the illusion that two treasons equal a right.

[Arrashi]

Aethas helping Silvermoon with the Sha is breaking neutrality as well.

Man, dalaran sure as hell is den of traitors and thieves.

[Koryn123]

Aethas helping Silvermoon with the Sha is breaking neutrality as well.

Is it? I don't recall if the box was of military advantage, was it? If so, that is iffy, but not nearly on the level of what Jaina did. All Aethas did was go there, and as he's the Horde representative in Dalaran, it's expected that he would have some Horde involvement, especially since he is also a citizen of Quel'thalas and thus is subject to Lor'themar's orders, at least if he wants Silvermoon's support. But Jaina is leader of the Council, so she should not. Let Karlain be the one who helps Varian out if he needs something magic done. Karlain is a citizen of Stormwind, after all.

Jaina actually devoted Kirin Tor resources to Darnassus. It certainly couldn't have been she alone who could lay down such powerful enchantments to keep out any Horde agents. Aethas just brought himself to Silvermoon to use his own magic. I doubt Jaina could do everything she did all on her own without any other Kirin Tor magi or resources.


Also, Darktbs confuses breaking neutrality with treason. Jaina who protected the Bell for the Alliance and the Sunreaver agents who helped steal the Bell for the Horde didn't commit treason against Dalaran. Their actions had no negative consequence for Dalaran. Their actions had negative consequences for the faction opposed to the one they were assisting. The only difference is that the latter was necessary only because of the prior. Both used Dalaran resources to help their preferred faction, but one was dishonest about it and still pretended that neutrality means taking a side and doing everything you can to indirectly help your preferred side kill the other side, sometimes by personally killing the other side as Jaina did with all previous attempts by the Horde to get into Darnassus before the player's attempt.

[Combatbutler]

Man, dalaran sure as hell is den of traitors and thieves.

Well it is Dalaran, I mean they might have become self aware about that fact and literally decided to house the real thieves in the sewers, to learn a few new tricks ;P

[Osiria]

It's just question.

Again and again someone trying to tell me that Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran for Horde and this is reason for what Jaina did in purge.

Ok ... So Sunreavers helped steal bell for horde. It's true.
But Jaina helped to Alliance get bell first only to stop horde get it. Jaina acting like Alliance is neutral but Aethas acting for horde is wrong?

She is bigger betrayer than Aethas. Why then Aethas does something wrong and why is it reason for purge of all belfs in city then?

Going real hard on that relativism, aren't we?

So, is the Alliance except to sit and die so the Horde can walk all over them with the Divine Bell? Jaina should just sit and let the Horde use the city resources to further their aggression against the Alliance or else she's being unfair to them? Right.

[Combatbutler]

Is it? I don't recall if the box was of military advantage, was it? If so, that is iffy, but not nearly on the level of what Jaina did. All Aethas did was go there, and as he's the Horde representative in Dalaran, it's expected that he would have some Horde involvement. But Jaina is leader of the Council, so she should not. Let Karlain be the one who helps Varian out if he needs something magic done. Karlain is a citizen of Stormwind, after all.

They were trying to figure out the sha and Garrosh intention was to weaponize it, so yeah this is a clear breach of neutrality.

[Koryn123]

They were trying to figure out the sha and Garrosh intention was to weaponize it, so yeah this is a clear breach of neutrality.

Very well, I will concede that. Though I still don't think it's as bad or took as much for him to help them. I see it as him doing something in his homeland on his own time, as opposed to being official Kirin Tor support for Quel'thalas and the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

Very well, I will concede that. Though I still don't think it's as bad or took as much for him to help them. I see it as him doing something in his homeland on his own time, as opposed to being official Kirin Tor support for Quel'thalas and the Horde.

It is basically the same, both are guilty I mean otherwise one could argue Jaina made a vacation in Darnassus visiting her good friend Tyrande and decided over some coffee to strengthen the wards.

[Koryn123]

Going real hard on that relativism, aren't we?

So, is the Alliance except to sit and die so the Horde can walk all over them with the Divine Bell? Jaina should just sit and let the Horde use the city resources to further their aggression against the Alliance or else she's being unfair to them? Right.

You're saying Jaina using the city's resources to help the Alliance agains the Horde is a reaction to the Sunreavers using the city's resources to help the Horde against the Alliance? You have it backwards.

And Thalen building Garrosh the mana bomb with the Focusing Iris was not official Kirin Tor support, that was a lone agent working secretly for Garrosh, with the express intention of betraying Dalaran, just in case you were gonna cite that as the Kirin Tor being used for official support of the Horde against the Alliance.

[Darktbs]

Aethas helping Silvermoon with the Sha is breaking neutrality as well.

Is not, both Jaina and Aethas acts are not wrong because they acted on their own.Meaning that if anything happened the Kirin Tor or Dalaran wouldn't be involved.

[Koryn123]

Is not, both Jaina and Aethas acts are not wrong because they acted on their own.Meaning that if anything happened the Kirin Tor or Dalaran wouldn't be involved.

Except Jaina thought the Horde doing what she did was wrong, and purged them from the city for it.

[Darktbs]

[QUOTE=TheLoadbearer;48125848]

Jaina actually devoted Kirin Tor resources to Darnassus. It certainly couldn't have been she alone who could lay down such powerful enchantments to keep out any Horde agents. Aethas just brought himself to Silvermoon to use his own magic. I doubt Jaina could do everything she did all on her own without any other Kirin Tor magi or resources.

I hope you realize other factions aren't lacking in resources.

Also, Darktbs confuses breaking neutrality with treason.

The Word i used was misplaced, i apologize for that.

Jaina who protected the Bell for the Alliance and the Sunreaver agents who helped steal the Bell for the Horde didn't commit treason against Dalaran. Their actions had no negative consequence for Dalaran. Their actions had negative consequences for the faction opposed to the one they were assisting. The only difference is that the latter was necessary only because of the prior.

Aethas action didn't affect the Alliance because they didn't get anything out of the Sha or had good common sense to not using.

If any of those two happened Aethas would have been directly guilty of helping the Horde on the War.

Both used Dalaran resources to help their preferred faction, but one was dishonest about it and still pretended that neutrality means taking a side and doing everything you can to indirectly help your preferred side kill the other side, sometimes by personally killing the other side as Jaina did with all previous attempts by the Horde to get into Darnassus before the player's attempt.

Im sorry what?Did you have any source to prove that Jaina killed those she caught in Darnassus, for all that we know she was just asked to protect the bell and for what she tells she just caugh everyone that tried.

You mean like both did?Look at both sides.

Aethas had a choice to tell Jaina everything and risk Garrosh attacking his people in return.Thats a huge fucking deal.

Jaina, not only still haunted by the events of tides of war, had to deal with this incident as the leader of the Kirin tor, otherwise they would be openly saying that they don't care either way, what would happen next is unpredictable, Civil war on Dalaran, Alliance suspicious on the Kirin tor, Silver Covenant Outcry.She has to make a decision to punish those that did the "backstabing" ,lets put this way, or let it slide and have dire consequences follow from that decision.

I don't agree with the purge, but both sides have good reasons to do what they did.

[Combatbutler]

Is not, both Jaina and Aethas acts are not wrong because they acted on their own.Meaning that if anything happened the Kirin Tor or Dalaran wouldn't be involved.

They were members of the kirin tor directly interfering in the war effort, they represent a neutral organization before anything else, that was the whole point of the Kirin tor at the time.

[Lupinemancer]

Instead of taking the most obvious route, taking the bell themselves and lock it up in Dalaran.

Well it wasn't Kirin Tor that found it, but the Night Elves, Kirin Tor simply helped them transport the bell to their city. Not really a matter of "picking sides" not that you can consider it that due to the whole "Garrosh being on the Horde" problem, it was more of providing a way to get home.
But honestly, I feel that this is all just a result of salty Horde kids who are upset the Alliance was the ones getting help. If it had been the other way around, they would have found the Kirin Tor's help perfectly normal.

When one faction is lead by a racist warmonger who wants to use a weapon of mass destruction to wipe out the other faction and take other the entire world, you aren't really gonna aid that faction. Even if you are neutral, sometimes, that means picking the side that benefits the greater good. In this case it was the Alliance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well It wasn't Kirin Tor that found it, but the Night Elves, Kirin Tor simply helped them transport hte bell to their city. Not really a matter of "picking sides" more of providing a way to get home.

that's still choosing a side..... they helped moved a powerful weapon into an Alliance city, and then warded it....

[Combatbutler]

Well It wasn't Kirin Tor that found it, but the Night Elves, Kirin Tor simply helped them transport hte bell to their city. Not really a matter of "picking sides" more of providing a way to get home.

Any kind of assistance to either faction at war from the kirin tor is breaking neutrality, otherwise they aren't neutral. Or they have to assist both sides. Jaina broke it and Aethas broke it, with the purge in mind, which made it clear interference was not allowed.

[Mehrunes]

Both the Alliance and Horde are complicit in what happened in Dalaran. The Sunreavers as a whole ultimately weren't even involved with the Divine Bell affair - only Thalen Songweaver was directly involved and wasn't acting as a Sunreaver or with Aethas' approval. Aethas knew what was going to happen by dint of his relative closeness to the Horde leadership but wasn't an active participant. Jaina immediately and automatically blamed Aethas and the Sunreavers without much in the way of an investigation or any kind of evidence - she saw only that Thalen had made use of the Dalaran portal network and that sealed the Sunreavers' guilt in her eyes.

Thalen wasn't seen within a hundred miles of the Divine Bell. The only named Blood Elf in the quest was Fanlyr Silverthorn and he's not a Sunreaver, period. He's from Reliquary. And not only did Jaina not suffer from PTSD flashbacks of the guy responsible for the mana bomb, she didn't even know the identity of anyone involved. Also, the only reason Aethas knew about it was because he walked in on the theft. Then was threatened.

The Alliance was also using Dalaran to move its own troops with the Kirin Tor's blessing, making their previous stance of neutrality ring hollow (and provoking perhaps the first instance of actual emotion Rommath has ever exhibited in-game) and hypocritical. Ultimately the Divine Bell theft and its fallout was a culmination of the hostile detente that had existed in Dalaran since WotLK and presumably Cata - the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and led to all-out conflict between the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers.

Technically the Alliance troops moved through Dalaran only after the Purge started. But Jaina personally aiding the Night Elves and killing/capturing Horde POWs already shat all over Dalaran's neutrality.

To add to that, a promotion to nominal head of the Kirin Tor and Council is probably *not* the best thing to give to a woman who has just lost her friends, loved ones, and her entire city and is obviously suffering from great mental trauma. Jaina was right on the edge of annihilating every innocent in Orgrimmar in revenge for what Garrosh had done to Theramore, putting her in charge of a nation-state sitting atop a political powder keg was a bad idea.

Gotta agree with that though.

The Kirin Tor mages can offer their services to anyone, as long as they don't involve Dalaran/Kirin tor resources.For example, a Mage can on his own, go to a capital city of either faction and apply a service, Enchant something(Jaina's case with the Divine bell protection) or help with Investigation (Aethas case with the Sha).

What happened is that a Sunreaver used Dalaran as a means to go to Darnassus.

Manpower is a resource. And there's a tiny difference between aiding research or enchanting and magically trapping soldiers of one side of a conflict between two third parties, engaged in combat with the other side. The latter is a way of actively getting involved in the combat. Which is kinda neutrality-breaking. It's also what Jaina herself admitted to have been doing in Darnassus

Non fantasy real version:

info:
- But some things you might have forgotten. Blood elfs where talking about joining the alliance because garrosh was going insane ( so it was a double betrayal)

You expected Lor'themar to continue the talks with the Alliance after Jaina ethnically cleansed Dalaran of a part of his race over her hypocrisy? Breaking talks under such circumstances isn't betrayal by any stretch of the word. It's Jaina shitting the Alliance bed. Hell, even Varian tells her so.

- When stealing the bell they invaded darnassus and killed alliance members

The ones involved in stealing did not kill anyone. But even if they did, so what? The factions were at war.

- Alliance did not steal etc the bell...they found it.

And in what "non fantasy real version" of the OP was it stated the Alliance stole it? Because it's not in the one you quoted.

- ohh and they hurt her love interest ( varians) boy at the time of this...

Literally what.

- And correct me if i am wrong...but the bell only worked in pandaria.....and it was in darnassus so it was "disarmed"

How is that relevant to anything?

- and garrosh at this time was already doing some crazy ass shit. that even other hord members where thinking of leaving him.

And yet when it comes to the Divine Bell even Vol'jin preferred it in Garrosh's hands than Alliance's. After he got stabbed in the neck by Garrosh's goon.

- people talk about kirin tor using dalaran to move alliance troops...yup they did...but not into enemy city's...big difference there...a thin line...but still a line.

A line still in "breaking neutrality" zone.

- and after all she had to for the hord, and got repaid by them ( theramore) you think she might was a bit right after a other betrayal.

Theramore was destroyed after a year of war in which Theramore played the pivotal role against the Horde across the entire Kalimdor. Its destruction was in no way a betrayal and Jaina was repaid for her aggression against the Horde.

so:
So you are comparing the alliance finding a bell and storing it vs stealing and invading a enemy city. And you think those 2 things are the same???

So neutral faction helps to move dangerous weapon to save location, then part of the neutral faction betrays their neutrality and help attack a city, and then try to use the bell.....and she was more wrong??? dude....jaina might be a crazy B-word....but nope...

@Artelia was clearly not comparing the Alliance to the Horde, but Jaina to Sunreavers. And given how both broke neutrality, with Jaina doing it first, yes, she's guilty of the same thing, but in a worse manner. And it was worse because she did it first, because she was put in a position of trust by the Council of Six and then shat all over that trust and because she was a hypocrite about it.

You mean helping protect the bell?Which is by no means a act of treason?

If it is then we must count Aethas helping with the study of the Sha in Silvermoon

Did Aethas personally trap Alliance soldiers trying to get into Silvermoon at the time? No? Then it's in no way comparable.

Is it? I don't recall if the box was of military advantage, was it?

Not really. All it did was almost kill the people researching it. Unless you throw it the Alliance and hope they open it, its military use is nonexistent. And even that's assuming the Sha got back in the box. But I think it died. So likely it was literally just a box afterwards.

Going real hard on that relativism, aren't we?

So, is the Alliance except to sit and die so the Horde can walk all over them with the Divine Bell? Jaina should just sit and let the Horde use the city resources to further their aggression against the Alliance or else she's being unfair to them? Right.

Who said anything about Jaina letting the Horde use Dalaran's resources? Or Alliance sitting and dying (not that it's particularly relevant to a talk about Dalaran's inhabitants and how they behaved)?

Is not, both Jaina and Aethas acts are not wrong because they acted on their own.Meaning that if anything happened the Kirin Tor or Dalaran wouldn't be involved.

Except Jaina is literally the leader of the city state and its face to the world. And unlike Aethas, she had no official ties to one of the faction at the time, since her Alliance city state she was a citizen of was blown to the stratosphere. So while Aethas could be handwaved away by the rest of Dalaran as him choosing one citizenship over the other, they had no grounds for such an excuse with Jaina.