Just used this example as a way to show that true neutrality is just cowardice when both sides are not even.
Both Rhonin's and Jaina's actions may not be true neutrality, but were attempts at stopping a war to escalate. Obviously, the side that was going to benefit more from the conflict will be bothered by it.
Whatever...
I get Thalen and Fanlyr mixed up in my head - Thalen Songweaver created the mana-bomb that took out Theramore, and Fanlyr was the Reliquary agent who participated in the Divine Bell heist. Even then, it only makes Jaina's almost automatic presumption of guilt on the part of the Sunreavers that much more unhinged.
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Yet that's the charge leveled at Aethas by Jaina, and by extension to the Sunreavers - the use of Kirin Tor resources to aid the Horde in a partisan move against the Alliance. The merest suggestion of complicity with Garrosh's scheme (which ultimately involved neither Aethas nor the Sunreavers) led to the Purge, which put Dalaran right back into the hands of the Alliance.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....
Unfortunately, Blizzard must not have realized how riled up this stuff would get people, and were afraid of making one side of the fans angry, so they never followed up on one of the most engaging plot points in the past few years at that point. Then in Legion, they just decided the blood elves and Horde could suck it, and made Aethas go crawling to the Kirin Tor again, even being willing to hock a priceless royal family heirloom national treasure of Quel'thalas to the Kirin Tor to be allowed into Dalaran again, not even as a trusted or highly valued individual. Just living in the city again. He is a wretched piece of dipsnatch, and needs to die, unless something happens to make him not a naive little shizzrag.
I could see Aethas going through a change similar to Jaina after Theramore, but of course, Blizzard will never do anything to make their biggest advertisement for elves being inferior to humans stop groveling at their feet.
Sunreavers were purged, because Jaina held higher position than Aethas. It is good to be the queen. Which Jaina actually wasn't, but acted like she was and for some reason the rest of the council as well as Dalaran's populace went along with it. There wasn't a lick of sense in the storyline.
Now you see it. Now you don't.
But was where Dalaran?
You got some things wrong there.
1. The blood elves being in negotiations to leave the Horde and join the Alliance doesn't really have anything to do with that until the purge of Dalaran
2. For the record her love interest at the time was Kalecgos, not Anduin. On top of that you have your order of events wrong since Anduin was injured during the destruction of the Divine Bell which occurred after the Horde successfully stole it from Darnassus and after the purge of Dalaran. Though again that is entirely irrelevant to the point of whether Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance when she was supposed to be neutral.
3. We have no idea whether or not the bell only worked in Pandaria. Though we do in fact know that the Alliance had considered using the bell against the Horde, so in the eyes of the Horde the bell being in the Alliances hands would be a major threat.
4. Garrosh doing crazy shit is again completely irrelevant to whether or not Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance. Regardless of her motivations, you can't claim to have been betrayed when you broke neutrality first.
5. The Kirin Tor moving alliance troops would be a breach of neutrality regardless of if the destination was an enemy city or not. The only exception I can think of would be them moving Alliance troops for humanitarian as opposed to military purposes; however, since it was for military purposes then it is a clear breach of neutrality. It'd be like if Canada helped Russia transport troops to make attacks on the USA. It wouldn't matter if Canada took them straight into the USA or just to the border, they're aiding one side of a conflict thus they can't claim to be neutral, so they can't complain when they become a legitimate military target for the enemy of the ones they're helping.
6. Her betrayal of the Horde led to the bombing of Theramore. As others have mentioned in this thread, the reason why the Horde attacked Theramore was because Jaina was letting the Alliance use it as a staging ground for their invasion of Horde lands (namely the Barrens). This is why a highway from Theramore to the Barrens was put in during the Cata rework. Just like with the Divine Bell, Jaina betrayed the Horde first and then got butt hurt when the Horde stopped treating her like a neutral party. I don't know if her feeling betrayed is bad writing on blizzards part or if her character is supposed to be a selfish hypocritical twat, but betrayal isn't the right word for it when she broke trust first, it's reprisal.
As far as who's worse, I'd have to go with Jaina. She acted like a paranoid freak that killed innocent people for refusing to submit to an unjust arrest within their own home city. Say what you will about the Horde killing Alliance in Darnassus, at least the Alliance in Darnassus were military personnel, not civilians. In fact the only civilian casualties in either incident were horde civilians. Theramore was evacuated and only combatants remained when it was bombed (which was what Garrosh planned and why he waited for them to garrison their troops to siege the city), and the only civilian casualties that came from the Divine Bell incident were blood elves killed during the purge of Dalaran.
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I kinda have to disagree with the first part of that because the main reason it's still discussed today is because most people didn't understand the greater context of what was going on in the geopolitical climate of WoW at the time. For example, a lot of people think Jaina was an innocent victim of the Horde between the bombing of Theramore and the Divine Bell incident, but the truth is that Jaina was letting the Alliance use Theramore as a staging ground for the Alliance's invasion of Horde lands and Jaina as the leader of a neutral party helped secure what was basically a WMD for the Alliance. It's sad, but what is probably the longest talked about and debated period of WoW is not due to great writing, but Blizzard mishandling the story by putting major lore points in books only like the evacuation of civilians from Theramore as part of Garrosh's plan, not properly encouraging players to experience the new cata zone stories which would've clued them in on things like Theramore's non-neutral status, and not cluing players in on the greater context of those situations in case they missed important details such as Theramore being a staging ground for an active Alliance invasion.
But I do have to say, I loved the lore in MoP. It was some of the most creative lore and probably the most revealing expansion when it came to lore insights.
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The problem is that the Alliance could've turned around and used the bell anyways even after Jaina helped them secure it from the Horde. Imagine if the Alliance had kept the bell, but the Horde injured to killed Anduin while they had it. Do you think Varian wouldn't use the bell against the Horde in that case? The point is that the bell being in the hands of the Alliance means that it's a weapon that can be used against the Horde in the future. Jaina aiding the Alliance, regardless of her intentions, is a betrayal against the Horde as a major breach of neutrality.
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Why couldn't the Alliance use the bell? It's not like they disarmed since after it was stolen Garrosh was able to use it. In fact, the only reason they didn't want to use it was because Anduin convinced Varian not to, but that could've changed if something had happened to Anduin or if the Alliance was backed into a corner with no other options.
Last edited by Vynny; 2017-11-23 at 11:59 AM.
She had a fond love for Varian, mr blue was her current boo. But she did have fondness for him .
Not a army.....not a attack:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32414/darnassus-attacked
The quests says attacked....?
And yes i am not saying 1 side is peaceful. I am saying trying to save guard a WMD is something else then trying to use one.
Nope, because 1 came in under the guises of peace talks.
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But all of the history of her builds to her persona...that is what i am saying. Look at her history ! And yes she is still insane.
And again it has to do with her history....
Dalaran was a neutral 3rd party, not part of the Alliance which is at war with the Horde. The Alliance can do whatever it wants to militarily fight back against the Horde. The problem is that Jaina, who was the leader of a neutral 3rd party, claimed to have been betrayed by the Horde after she helped the Alliance secure what was basically a WMD.
Jaina was within her rights as leader of the Kirin Tor to side with the Alliance; however, she can't rightly claim that she was betrayed by the Horde since she broke trust first by siding with the Alliance.
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Safeguarding a WMD still means you can use it later if you choose to do so. You act like the Alliance would never be tempted to use it when that was their initial intention before Anduin talked Varian out of it.
No one came in under the guise of peace talks. Lor'themar who was in the process of negotiating to join the Alliance had no involvement with the theft of the Divine Bell.
1. it does...if you are in peace talks you are trying to friendly to each other...that is a greater brake of trust.
2. Love, fondness for varian and anduin better then???
3. Yes i agree with the fact that it might have been like that for the hord. If it was used it sends fear etc in enemy's....kinda pointless using that in your own city right??
4. So how did she Aid the alliance??? by helping moving a weapon of mass destruction from a place of war where alliance, hord, mogu, pandaran and those bugs where fighting to a city for save keeping?
5. What massive army's before the betrayal did she move. If you can proof this ill belief you .
6. Yeah and the hord did nothing wrong. And the alliance used WMD to kill hord...
I disagree with you. She has a history with the hord. But still let members stay near her. And you said yourself now...hord killed people. And after the betrayal she purged them. Is she perfect nope, is she a war criminal in my eye's...yes. But is she worse then the sunreavers...nope.
They started it...she ended it.
First, I agree with you, but then you'd have the Alliance kids rightly complaining that the Kirin Tor aiding the Horde was a breach of neutrality.
Second, she was perfectly allowed to break neutrality and choose to side with the Alliance, but she is not allowed to act like the Horde retaliating is some sort of betrayal when she broke trust first.
So......there is mehrunes again with twisting words. I started with : if i am wrong i stand corrected.....so that means what i am the say after that is what i think its true...but not what IS true.
She does not know about peace talks? could be true but i doubt it. And even it it was true...did not stealing the bell by use of portals be a betrayal?
okay lets say no deaths happened there. It was still stealing a WMD from a city.
But Jaina helped to Alliance get bell first only to stop horde get it.< kinda helps to make you think it.
Factoring her actions has nothing to do with building her history.
Nope its not. If you try to prevent a nuke from being used by storing it somewhere save ( where it can not be used) vs letting it sit in dangerous area.....
Was not talking about the bell.
On what she did in that action yes....we are talking overall. Atleast that is what i get from the OP thread starter.
So a person who has helped and has been dealt poor hands with working with the hord. Find outs someone in her organization used something against her is not a betrayal?
I looked at the whole text. I also looked at the OP. The OP did not compare the Alliance finding the Divine Bell and storing it to the Horde stealing it. It still only compared Jaina to Sunreavers. Any mention of the Alliance served as a background.
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You do not. I have had this discussion with you before. Even in this reply you take things differently . Like me saying i stand corrected if i am wrong, and you i state things as facts etc.
He did, he forgot some facts that make it look like the hord did nothing but steal a bell, and Jaina did every bad. ( she did do a shit ton bad). But leaving out the history and the rest of the war make's it less objective.
You make me sad.....Stealing WMD is okay???
not responding to you anymore...you thread me with disrespect, twist my words etc...you are kellyann conway
And you do not feed those.
1. Lor'themar was in secret peace talks with the Alliance. No one else knew, not even Aethas. Do you really think that Lor'themar would be open about betraying the Horde before he knew it was a done deal, or that Varian wouldn't ask Lor'themar to betray the Horde in some way that was advantageous to the Alliance? So just like how Jaina didn't know that Varian was in peace talks with Lor'themar, neither Garrosh nor anyone on the Horde's side knew that Lor'themar was in peace talks with Varian.
2. No, it's not better because as I said before, Anduin was hurt by Garrosh AFTER the theft of the divine bell and the purge of Dalaran.
3. Or you know, they could've used it to give their troops a Sha fueled roid boost like how Garrosh used it.
4. She was helping the Alliance because so long as it was in Alliance possession it could be used against the Horde and another thing about WMD's is that they are natural military deterrents. So long as the Alliance had the Divine Bell, the Horde couldn't make any big moves against them because when push comes to shove, the Alliance would decide to use the bell over losing to the Horde completely.
5. You're the one who claimed the Kirin Tor did, I was going off the info you were putting out there.
6. What?
And lastly, no the Sunreavers did not start it. How did they start it? Jaina goes off to Darnassus to help the Alliance despite being the leader of a neutral faction that the Sunreavers are a part of and somehow that's the Sunreavers starting it? How does that make sense to you? The only way that could make sense to you is if you completely ignore Jaina's actions until the point where a blood elf who wasn't part of the sunreavers mind you helped the Horde steal the bell.
This is the guy who helped the Horde steal the Divine Bell ( https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fanlyr_Silverthorn ). Note how it says he's part of the Reliquary, not the Sunreavers.
First off...talking about peace and jaina knowing about it ( otherwise she is the worse written kirin tor leader ever!) and then the abuse that.
And yes they might have used it. Might to be the word...because it needed to be near army's to be used. If she moved near a hord capitol..then yeah i agree alliance was making a dick move.
Why would Jaina, leader of the Kirin Tor who were not part of the Alliance at that point, know about secret peace talks between the blood elves and the Alliance?
No, it can enhance your own troops like Garrosh did with it. The Divine Bell had powers from each of the Sha, not just the Sha of fear.
Last response before this becomes a shit storm.
1. Okay i stand corrected on that ( and jeebus christ what was jaina ill informed)
2. I taught it was before.
3. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell’s screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies < straight from wow pedia...seeing as alliance is not the emperor of the mogu...the second one would have happened.
4. But they did not....again it needed to be near some one to be used. And still a neutral faction helping to store a WMD, or the steal it with the intent use it...2 different things.
5. Allot of you do talk about her moving alliance troops...i ask where....because before this she only moved the bell to safe guard it. So again...what army did she move?
6. She did not start it...she moved a WMD out of harms way??
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because she was friends with varian, because she was the leader of magic council that is extremely wise. etc...but lets say she did not know. Save guarding vs stealing a WMD are 2 different things.
The info they had back then was this: It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell’s screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies.
So the emperor ( mogu) could use it to fuel them. Other people not....that is what the info was.
It's not a betrayal because she broke trust first. If we tell each other a secret on the condition that neither of us tells anyone else, then is it a betrayal if I tell people your secret AFTER you tell people mine? Neutrality works the same way. Since Theramore acted against the Horde first by helping the Alliance invade Horde lands, the Horde had no reason to uphold their end of the bargain of not attacking Theramore thus it's not a betrayal, it's a reprisal.
Horde players will never ever admit they are the evil force. Never. Even after garrosh who they happyly followed till they find out they're hoing to lose and then switched sides.
You can't really reason here.
I mean personally I really like the idea of the horde being just evil and unmorally, but what is really frustrating is that some horde players seem to defend every action whith some kind of whataboutism
The Horde allways have been evil, from Wc1 and beyond. The only time they were not totally crazy genocidial maniacs was when Thrall was leading them and that time has long gone.
Sylvanas basically uses chemical and biological weapons on innocent people.
An Orc under Garrosh nuked a School of Druids, a School of a neutral faction.
Garrosh nuked a whole town.
Sylvanas is again going to nuke a whole town in BfA presumeably killing thousands of innocents.
The Horde IS evil beyond comprehension. They are composed of war mongering mongolians, heart and soulless undeads, an atztec like tribe that does blood sacrifices to the gods an some elves that are for some reason lost any sense of logic an reasoning.
I mean froma story telling perspective that is not bad, that makes the whole faction great, but they are not the good ones. The sole purpose we even have war in Warcraft is because of the Horde, all along.
The Horde is an aggressive, expansive force of war mongers and have allways been. They have continueingly betrayed everyone on every occassion and the Dalaran betrayal was only one of the many situations.
This is the best summation of the incident I have seen yet. Balanced and calling out both sides.
I will add that Blizz did a poor job of writing Jaina's flip. I'm not bothered that she did flip out (she's got some seriously screwed up history with the Horde) so much as how it played out in game. You visit her once to ask her to join the Alliance and she is all calm explaining why that wouldn't be right. You visit her again and she responds to Bell's theft by killing belfs without even talking first. They needed to either give her stronger evidence that Sunreavers were responsible, or add some missing steps in there where she at least questions Aethas before she starts killing his guards.
"I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"