Sunreavers and Jaina

[Friendlyimmolation]

Maybe that was what the Kirin Tor did with the whole Kael'thas situation, then? They saw Garithos sending the elves to be executed next morning and thought: "Well, they are both my allies. I'm gonna stay neutral on this stance. Let them solve it among themselves."

It would still be a betrayal to the blood elves, but yes its a possibility.

[DeicideUH]

It would still be a betrayal to the blood elves, but yes its a possibility.

Just used this example as a way to show that true neutrality is just cowardice when both sides are not even.

Both Rhonin's and Jaina's actions may not be true neutrality, but were attempts at stopping a war to escalate. Obviously, the side that was going to benefit more from the conflict will be bothered by it.

[Aucald]

Thalen wasn't seen within a hundred miles of the Divine Bell. The only named Blood Elf in the quest was Fanlyr Silverthorn and he's not a Sunreaver, period. He's from Reliquary. And not only did Jaina not suffer from PTSD flashbacks of the guy responsible for the mana bomb, she didn't even know the identity of anyone involved. Also, the only reason Aethas knew about it was because he walked in on the theft. Then was threatened.

I get Thalen and Fanlyr mixed up in my head - Thalen Songweaver created the mana-bomb that took out Theramore, and Fanlyr was the Reliquary agent who participated in the Divine Bell heist. Even then, it only makes Jaina's almost automatic presumption of guilt on the part of the Sunreavers that much more unhinged.

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I mean hell both Enclaves have war zones dedicated to sending people to battlegrounds with the other factions. They literally serve no purpose in game and yet there they are and as such have to be canon. The claim of "using Kirin Tor portals to get around Jaina's magic" being wrong is utter bs since both sides are already using Dalaran as a staging ground for existing conflict and have been for a while.

Yet that's the charge leveled at Aethas by Jaina, and by extension to the Sunreavers - the use of Kirin Tor resources to aid the Horde in a partisan move against the Alliance. The merest suggestion of complicity with Garrosh's scheme (which ultimately involved neither Aethas nor the Sunreavers) led to the Purge, which put Dalaran right back into the hands of the Alliance.

[Rathbourne]

Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....

[Koryn123]

Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....

Unfortunately, Blizzard must not have realized how riled up this stuff would get people, and were afraid of making one side of the fans angry, so they never followed up on one of the most engaging plot points in the past few years at that point. Then in Legion, they just decided the blood elves and Horde could suck it, and made Aethas go crawling to the Kirin Tor again, even being willing to hock a priceless royal family heirloom national treasure of Quel'thalas to the Kirin Tor to be allowed into Dalaran again, not even as a trusted or highly valued individual. Just living in the city again. He is a wretched piece of dipsnatch, and needs to die, unless something happens to make him not a naive little shizzrag.

I could see Aethas going through a change similar to Jaina after Theramore, but of course, Blizzard will never do anything to make their biggest advertisement for elves being inferior to humans stop groveling at their feet.

[Zuben]

Sunreavers were purged, because Jaina held higher position than Aethas. It is good to be the queen. Which Jaina actually wasn't, but acted like she was and for some reason the rest of the council as well as Dalaran's populace went along with it. There wasn't a lick of sense in the storyline.

[Arrashi]

Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....

Ignoring everything that was idiotic about it - sure it was.

[Vynny]

Yup it was cluster fuck.

But some facts you forgot to mention ( atleast if i remember correctly).

Your version:
Jaina helps alliance to get bell > sunreavers help hord steal bell > Jaina goes full garrosh.

Non fantasy real version:

info:
- But some things you might have forgotten. Blood elfs where talking about joining the alliance because garrosh was going insane ( so it was a double betrayal)
- When stealing the bell they invaded darnassus and killed alliance members
- Alliance did not steal etc the bell...they found it.
- ohh and they hurt her love interest ( varians) boy at the time of this...
- And correct me if i am wrong...but the bell only worked in pandaria.....and it was in darnassus so it was "disarmed"
- and garrosh at this time was already doing some crazy ass shit. that even other hord members where thinking of leaving him.
- people talk about kirin tor using dalaran to move alliance troops...yup they did...but not into enemy city's...big difference there...a thin line...but still a line.
- and after all she had to for the hord, and got repaid by them ( theramore) you think she might was a bit right after a other betrayal.

so:
So you are comparing the alliance finding a bell and storing it vs stealing and invading a enemy city. And you think those 2 things are the same???

So neutral faction helps to move dangerous weapon to save location, then part of the neutral faction betrays their neutrality and help attack a city, and then try to use the bell.....and she was more wrong??? dude....jaina might be a crazy B-word....but nope...

You got some things wrong there.

1. The blood elves being in negotiations to leave the Horde and join the Alliance doesn't really have anything to do with that until the purge of Dalaran

2. For the record her love interest at the time was Kalecgos, not Anduin. On top of that you have your order of events wrong since Anduin was injured during the destruction of the Divine Bell which occurred after the Horde successfully stole it from Darnassus and after the purge of Dalaran. Though again that is entirely irrelevant to the point of whether Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance when she was supposed to be neutral.

3. We have no idea whether or not the bell only worked in Pandaria. Though we do in fact know that the Alliance had considered using the bell against the Horde, so in the eyes of the Horde the bell being in the Alliances hands would be a major threat.

4. Garrosh doing crazy shit is again completely irrelevant to whether or not Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance. Regardless of her motivations, you can't claim to have been betrayed when you broke neutrality first.

5. The Kirin Tor moving alliance troops would be a breach of neutrality regardless of if the destination was an enemy city or not. The only exception I can think of would be them moving Alliance troops for humanitarian as opposed to military purposes; however, since it was for military purposes then it is a clear breach of neutrality. It'd be like if Canada helped Russia transport troops to make attacks on the USA. It wouldn't matter if Canada took them straight into the USA or just to the border, they're aiding one side of a conflict thus they can't claim to be neutral, so they can't complain when they become a legitimate military target for the enemy of the ones they're helping.

6. Her betrayal of the Horde led to the bombing of Theramore. As others have mentioned in this thread, the reason why the Horde attacked Theramore was because Jaina was letting the Alliance use it as a staging ground for their invasion of Horde lands (namely the Barrens). This is why a highway from Theramore to the Barrens was put in during the Cata rework. Just like with the Divine Bell, Jaina betrayed the Horde first and then got butt hurt when the Horde stopped treating her like a neutral party. I don't know if her feeling betrayed is bad writing on blizzards part or if her character is supposed to be a selfish hypocritical twat, but betrayal isn't the right word for it when she broke trust first, it's reprisal.

As far as who's worse, I'd have to go with Jaina. She acted like a paranoid freak that killed innocent people for refusing to submit to an unjust arrest within their own home city. Say what you will about the Horde killing Alliance in Darnassus, at least the Alliance in Darnassus were military personnel, not civilians. In fact the only civilian casualties in either incident were horde civilians. Theramore was evacuated and only combatants remained when it was bombed (which was what Garrosh planned and why he waited for them to garrison their troops to siege the city), and the only civilian casualties that came from the Divine Bell incident were blood elves killed during the purge of Dalaran.

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Its amazing how even 6 years later this event is still being discussed. MoP was the best expansion when it comes to the lore....

I kinda have to disagree with the first part of that because the main reason it's still discussed today is because most people didn't understand the greater context of what was going on in the geopolitical climate of WoW at the time. For example, a lot of people think Jaina was an innocent victim of the Horde between the bombing of Theramore and the Divine Bell incident, but the truth is that Jaina was letting the Alliance use Theramore as a staging ground for the Alliance's invasion of Horde lands and Jaina as the leader of a neutral party helped secure what was basically a WMD for the Alliance. It's sad, but what is probably the longest talked about and debated period of WoW is not due to great writing, but Blizzard mishandling the story by putting major lore points in books only like the evacuation of civilians from Theramore as part of Garrosh's plan, not properly encouraging players to experience the new cata zone stories which would've clued them in on things like Theramore's non-neutral status, and not cluing players in on the greater context of those situations in case they missed important details such as Theramore being a staging ground for an active Alliance invasion.

But I do have to say, I loved the lore in MoP. It was some of the most creative lore and probably the most revealing expansion when it came to lore insights.

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Securing it in an Alliance city is not her choice. It's the requirement made by the Alliance in order to allow her to secure it. She could say "no" to it, but that just means the Alliance could change stance any time and use it without asking her permission.

(Ironically, in the end, it was her involvement that allowed the Horde to get the bell anyway.)

The problem is that the Alliance could've turned around and used the bell anyways even after Jaina helped them secure it from the Horde. Imagine if the Alliance had kept the bell, but the Horde injured to killed Anduin while they had it. Do you think Varian wouldn't use the bell against the Horde in that case? The point is that the bell being in the hands of the Alliance means that it's a weapon that can be used against the Horde in the future. Jaina aiding the Alliance, regardless of her intentions, is a betrayal against the Horde as a major breach of neutrality.

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Jaina didn't help recover the bell, only to secure it. And she was securing it so no one uses it.
That's not favoring Alliance, it's leveling the playing field. Alliance had a mass destruction weapon that it couldn't use.

But whatever, this discussion has happened thousands of times. People will still argue that being pro-peace is to take Alliance side. I guess Horde side is being pro-war. All wars seem to have been started by the Horde anyway...

Why couldn't the Alliance use the bell? It's not like they disarmed since after it was stolen Garrosh was able to use it. In fact, the only reason they didn't want to use it was because Anduin convinced Varian not to, but that could've changed if something had happened to Anduin or if the Alliance was backed into a corner with no other options.

[baskev]

What.



I'd tell you to do the one minute of research to know it wasn't an army, but a enchanted adventurer and a mage rendered invisible that sneaked rather than killed their way through the city, but I have no faith you would, or that you would simply say the quest is non-canon.



Helping secure a weapon in one side's city with our without intent to use it is still an act of war, it is favoring one side.



Both used Kirin'tor resources for one faction's benefit, they are the same.

She had a fond love for Varian, mr blue was her current boo. But she did have fondness for him .

Not a army.....not a attack:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32414/darnassus-attacked

The quests says attacked....?

And yes i am not saying 1 side is peaceful. I am saying trying to save guard a WMD is something else then trying to use one.

Nope, because 1 came in under the guises of peace talks.

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Daelin died years ago. And that doesn't mean much when her actions were openly hostile immediately preceding the Horde attack on Theramore. As already posted:


That happened after Theramore. And Aethas made the point that there have been plenty of Kirin Tor members who betrayed the organization. None of them led to the expulsion of their entire race.

“You Sunreavers cannot be trusted,” growled Vereesa. She looked imploringly at the other members of the council. “Why is he even still here? They are traitors, all of them! I warned you not to let them join the Kirin Tor!”
“There have been human traitors, and high elf, and gnome, and orc,” said Aethas calmly. “I will do what I can to atone for the treachery of Songweaver. The irony that I sent him as a gesture of goodwill does not escape me. But we must not abandon our stance of neutrality for vengeance!”
--Tides of War

But all of the history of her builds to her persona...that is what i am saying. Look at her history ! And yes she is still insane.

And again it has to do with her history....

[Vynny]

Going real hard on that relativism, aren't we?

So, is the Alliance except to sit and die so the Horde can walk all over them with the Divine Bell? Jaina should just sit and let the Horde use the city resources to further their aggression against the Alliance or else she's being unfair to them? Right.

Dalaran was a neutral 3rd party, not part of the Alliance which is at war with the Horde. The Alliance can do whatever it wants to militarily fight back against the Horde. The problem is that Jaina, who was the leader of a neutral 3rd party, claimed to have been betrayed by the Horde after she helped the Alliance secure what was basically a WMD.

Jaina was within her rights as leader of the Kirin Tor to side with the Alliance; however, she can't rightly claim that she was betrayed by the Horde since she broke trust first by siding with the Alliance.

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She had a fond love for Varian, mr blue was her current boo. But she did have fondness for him .

Not a army.....not a attack:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32414/darnassus-attacked

The quests says attacked....?

And yes i am not saying 1 side is peaceful. I am saying trying to save guard a WMD is something else then trying to use one.

Nope, because 1 came in under the guises of peace talks.

Safeguarding a WMD still means you can use it later if you choose to do so. You act like the Alliance would never be tempted to use it when that was their initial intention before Anduin talked Varian out of it.

No one came in under the guise of peace talks. Lor'themar who was in the process of negotiating to join the Alliance had no involvement with the theft of the Divine Bell.

[baskev]

You got some things wrong there.

1. The blood elves being in negotiations to leave the Horde and join the Alliance doesn't really have anything to do with that until the purge of Dalaran

2. For the record her love interest at the time was Kalecgos, not Anduin. On top of that you have your order of events wrong since Anduin was injured during the destruction of the Divine Bell which occurred after the Horde successfully stole it from Darnassus and after the purge of Dalaran. Though again that is entirely irrelevant to the point of whether Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance when she was supposed to be neutral.

3. We have no idea whether or not the bell only worked in Pandaria. Though we do in fact know that the Alliance had considered using the bell against the Horde, so in the eyes of the Horde the bell being in the Alliances hands would be a major threat.

4. Garrosh doing crazy shit is again completely irrelevant to whether or not Jaina betrayed the Horde first by aiding the Alliance. Regardless of her motivations, you can't claim to have been betrayed when you broke neutrality first.

5. The Kirin Tor moving alliance troops would be a breach of neutrality regardless of if the destination was an enemy city or not. The only exception I can think of would be them moving Alliance troops for humanitarian as opposed to military purposes; however, since it was for military purposes then it is a clear breach of neutrality. It'd be like if Canada helped Russia transport troops to make attacks on the USA. It wouldn't matter if Canada took them straight into the USA or just to the border, they're aiding one side of a conflict thus they can't claim to be neutral, so they can't complain when they become a legitimate military target for the enemy of the ones they're helping.

6. Her betrayal of the Horde led to the bombing of Theramore. As others have mentioned in this thread, the reason why the Horde attacked Theramore was because Jaina was letting the Alliance use it as a staging ground for their invasion of Horde lands (namely the Barrens). This is why a highway from Theramore to the Barrens was put in during the Cata rework. Just like with the Divine Bell, Jaina betrayed the Horde first and then got butt hurt when the Horde stopped treating her like a neutral party. I don't know if her feeling betrayed is bad writing on blizzards part or if her character is supposed to be a selfish hypocritical twat, but betrayal isn't the right word for it when she broke trust first, it's reprisal.

As far as who's worse, I'd have to go with Jaina. She acted like a paranoid freak that killed innocent people for refusing to submit to an unjust arrest within their own home city. Say what you will about the Horde killing Alliance in Darnassus, at least the Alliance in Darnassus were military personnel, not civilians. In fact the only civilian casualties in either incident were horde civilians. Theramore was evacuated and only combatants remained when it was bombed (which was what Garrosh planned and why he waited for them to garrison their troops to siege the city), and the only civilian casualties that came from the Divine Bell incident were blood elves killed during the purge of Dalaran.

1. it does...if you are in peace talks you are trying to friendly to each other...that is a greater brake of trust.

2. Love, fondness for varian and anduin better then???

3. Yes i agree with the fact that it might have been like that for the hord. If it was used it sends fear etc in enemy's....kinda pointless using that in your own city right??

4. So how did she Aid the alliance??? by helping moving a weapon of mass destruction from a place of war where alliance, hord, mogu, pandaran and those bugs where fighting to a city for save keeping?

5. What massive army's before the betrayal did she move. If you can proof this ill belief you .

6. Yeah and the hord did nothing wrong. And the alliance used WMD to kill hord...


I disagree with you. She has a history with the hord. But still let members stay near her. And you said yourself now...hord killed people. And after the betrayal she purged them. Is she perfect nope, is she a war criminal in my eye's...yes. But is she worse then the sunreavers...nope.
They started it...she ended it.

[Vynny]

Well it wasn't Kirin Tor that found it, but the Night Elves, Kirin Tor simply helped them transport the bell to their city. Not really a matter of "picking sides" not that you can consider it that due to the whole "Garrosh being on the Horde" problem, it was more of providing a way to get home.
But honestly, I feel that this is all just a result of salty Horde kids who are upset the Alliance was the ones getting help. If it had been the other way around, they would have found the Kirin Tor's help perfectly normal.

When one faction is lead by a racist warmonger who wants to use a weapon of mass destruction to wipe out the other faction and take other the entire world, you aren't really gonna aid that faction. Even if you are neutral, sometimes, that means picking the side that benefits the greater good. In this case it was the Alliance.

First, I agree with you, but then you'd have the Alliance kids rightly complaining that the Kirin Tor aiding the Horde was a breach of neutrality.

Second, she was perfectly allowed to break neutrality and choose to side with the Alliance, but she is not allowed to act like the Horde retaliating is some sort of betrayal when she broke trust first.

[baskev]

Prefacing your corrections with "non fantasy real version" made that look extremely genuine.

So......there is mehrunes again with twisting words. I started with : if i am wrong i stand corrected.....so that means what i am the say after that is what i think its true...but not what IS true.

So how was there a double betrayal in context of the Blood Elves? And Jaina wasn't even aware of the talks so she couldn't really have a PoV on them.

She does not know about peace talks? could be true but i doubt it. And even it it was true...did not stealing the bell by use of portals be a betrayal?

As someone already said, you get teleported out and have to start again if you're even spotted. The front where Jaina was at was not seen in the questline. All we know is that Jaina trapped everyone that tried to get it. If Night Elves aren't retarded they'd have sat behind the wall and let traps do their work.

okay lets say no deaths happened there. It was still stealing a WMD from a city.

Which part indicates that, exactly? All they said about the Alliance obtaining the Bell is that they got it.

But Jaina helped to Alliance get bell first only to stop horde get it.< kinda helps to make you think it.

You mean the part after the Purge of Dalaran? Unless Jaina is a time traveler, that couldn't have factored into her actions.

Factoring her actions has nothing to do with building her history.

Still irrelevant in the context of Dalaran's neutrality.

Nope its not. If you try to prevent a nuke from being used by storing it somewhere save ( where it can not be used) vs letting it sit in dangerous area.....

Vol'jin revolted after Garrosh tried to subjugate Sen'jin Village. And there is no indication Lor'themar was in talks over the Divine Bell. There's plenty of indication he was in the talks over Garrosh treating Blood Elves like expendable canon fodder.

Was not talking about the bell.

Except what Jaina did was either capture Horde prisoners of war or outright kill Horde soldiers, depending on what the traps did. What some random Sunreaver did was teleport Fanlyr and the player into enemy city so they'd steal a weapon undetected. Jaina's action is the worse one here.

On what she did in that action yes....we are talking overall. Atleast that is what i get from the OP thread starter.

There is still no justification for calling it a betrayal even from her PoV, unless you prove that Jaina suffers from selective memory loss that made her forget her taking arms against the Horde.

So a person who has helped and has been dealt poor hands with working with the hord. Find outs someone in her organization used something against her is not a betrayal?

Do not look at single words...look at the whole text. I was referring to what had happened. just like the OP thread poster did. And i am not saying that she was at fault. I am saying overall her things where just a tad less of a a-hole move.

I looked at the whole text. I also looked at the OP. The OP did not compare the Alliance finding the Divine Bell and storing it to the Horde stealing it. It still only compared Jaina to Sunreavers. Any mention of the Alliance served as a background.
[/QUOTE]
You do not. I have had this discussion with you before. Even in this reply you take things differently . Like me saying i stand corrected if i am wrong, and you i state things as facts etc.

He did, he forgot some facts that make it look like the hord did nothing but steal a bell, and Jaina did every bad. ( she did do a shit ton bad). But leaving out the history and the rest of the war make's it less objective.

There were no Sunreavers present in Darnassus. They merely let the Horde walk through Dalaran into Darnassus. So what exactly did the Surneavers themselves invade? And Jaina did not move the Bell. Night Elves did it on their own. Jaina was in Darnassus in combat against the Horde. Unlike the Surneavers, which were not in Darnassus and as such were in no position to use force. So yes, one side used force while the other did not. The side that did was Jaina. Jesus Christ you make me sad.

You make me sad.....Stealing WMD is okay???

not responding to you anymore...you thread me with disrespect, twist my words etc...you are kellyann conway
And you do not feed those.

[Vynny]

1. it does...if you are in peace talks you are trying to friendly to each other...that is a greater brake of trust.

2. Love, fondness for varian and anduin better then???

3. Yes i agree with the fact that it might have been like that for the hord. If it was used it sends fear etc in enemy's....kinda pointless using that in your own city right??

4. So how did she Aid the alliance??? by helping moving a weapon of mass destruction from a place of war where alliance, hord, mogu, pandaran and those bugs where fighting to a city for save keeping?

5. What massive army's before the betrayal did she move. If you can proof this ill belief you .

6. Yeah and the hord did nothing wrong. And the alliance used WMD to kill hord...


I disagree with you. She has a history with the hord. But still let members stay near her. And you said yourself now...hord killed people. And after the betrayal she purged them. Is she perfect nope, is she a war criminal in my eye's...yes. But is she worse then the sunreavers...nope.
They started it...she ended it.

1. Lor'themar was in secret peace talks with the Alliance. No one else knew, not even Aethas. Do you really think that Lor'themar would be open about betraying the Horde before he knew it was a done deal, or that Varian wouldn't ask Lor'themar to betray the Horde in some way that was advantageous to the Alliance? So just like how Jaina didn't know that Varian was in peace talks with Lor'themar, neither Garrosh nor anyone on the Horde's side knew that Lor'themar was in peace talks with Varian.

2. No, it's not better because as I said before, Anduin was hurt by Garrosh AFTER the theft of the divine bell and the purge of Dalaran.

3. Or you know, they could've used it to give their troops a Sha fueled roid boost like how Garrosh used it.

4. She was helping the Alliance because so long as it was in Alliance possession it could be used against the Horde and another thing about WMD's is that they are natural military deterrents. So long as the Alliance had the Divine Bell, the Horde couldn't make any big moves against them because when push comes to shove, the Alliance would decide to use the bell over losing to the Horde completely.

5. You're the one who claimed the Kirin Tor did, I was going off the info you were putting out there.

- people talk about kirin tor using dalaran to move alliance troops...yup they did...but not into enemy city's...big difference there...a thin line...but still a line.

6. What?

And lastly, no the Sunreavers did not start it. How did they start it? Jaina goes off to Darnassus to help the Alliance despite being the leader of a neutral faction that the Sunreavers are a part of and somehow that's the Sunreavers starting it? How does that make sense to you? The only way that could make sense to you is if you completely ignore Jaina's actions until the point where a blood elf who wasn't part of the sunreavers mind you helped the Horde steal the bell.

This is the guy who helped the Horde steal the Divine Bell ( https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fanlyr_Silverthorn ). Note how it says he's part of the Reliquary, not the Sunreavers.

[baskev]

Dalaran was a neutral 3rd party, not part of the Alliance which is at war with the Horde. The Alliance can do whatever it wants to militarily fight back against the Horde. The problem is that Jaina, who was the leader of a neutral 3rd party, claimed to have been betrayed by the Horde after she helped the Alliance secure what was basically a WMD.

Jaina was within her rights as leader of the Kirin Tor to side with the Alliance; however, she can't rightly claim that she was betrayed by the Horde since she broke trust first by siding with the Alliance.

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Safeguarding a WMD still means you can use it later if you choose to do so. You act like the Alliance would never be tempted to use it when that was their initial intention before Anduin talked Varian out of it.

No one came in under the guise of peace talks. Lor'themar who was in the process of negotiating to join the Alliance had no involvement with the theft of the Divine Bell.

First off...talking about peace and jaina knowing about it ( otherwise she is the worse written kirin tor leader ever!) and then the abuse that.

And yes they might have used it. Might to be the word...because it needed to be near army's to be used. If she moved near a hord capitol..then yeah i agree alliance was making a dick move.

[Vynny]

First off...talking about peace and jaina knowing about it ( otherwise she is the worse written kirin tor leader ever!) and then the abuse that.

And yes they might have used it. Might to be the word...because it needed to be near army's to be used. If she moved near a hord capitol..then yeah i agree alliance was making a dick move.

Why would Jaina, leader of the Kirin Tor who were not part of the Alliance at that point, know about secret peace talks between the blood elves and the Alliance?

No, it can enhance your own troops like Garrosh did with it. The Divine Bell had powers from each of the Sha, not just the Sha of fear.

[baskev]

1. Lor'themar was in secret peace talks with the Alliance. No one else knew, not even Aethas. Do you really think that Lor'themar would be open about betraying the Horde before he knew it was a done deal, or that Varian wouldn't ask Lor'themar to betray the Horde in some way that was advantageous to the Alliance? So just like how Jaina didn't know that Varian was in peace talks with Lor'themar, neither Garrosh nor anyone on the Horde's side knew that Lor'themar was in peace talks with Varian.

2. No, it's not better because as I said before, Anduin was hurt by Garrosh AFTER the theft of the divine bell and the purge of Dalaran.

3. Or you know, they could've used it to give their troops a Sha fueled roid boost like how Garrosh used it.

4. She was helping the Alliance because so long as it was in Alliance possession it could be used against the Horde and another thing about WMD's is that they are natural military deterrents. So long as the Alliance had the Divine Bell, the Horde couldn't make any big moves against them because when push comes to shove, the Alliance would decide to use the bell over losing to the Horde completely.

5. You're the one who claimed the Kirin Tor did, I was going off the info you were putting out there.



6. What?

And lastly, no the Sunreavers did not start it. How did they start it? Jaina goes off to Darnassus to help the Alliance despite being the leader of a neutral faction that the Sunreavers are a part of and somehow that's the Sunreavers starting it? How does that make sense to you? The only way that could make sense to you is if you completely ignore Jaina's actions until the point where a blood elf who wasn't part of the sunreavers mind you helped the Horde steal the bell.

This is the guy who helped the Horde steal the Divine Bell ( https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fanlyr_Silverthorn ). Note how it says he's part of the Reliquary, not the Sunreavers.

Last response before this becomes a shit storm.

1. Okay i stand corrected on that ( and jeebus christ what was jaina ill informed)
2. I taught it was before.
3. It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell’s screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies < straight from wow pedia...seeing as alliance is not the emperor of the mogu...the second one would have happened.
4. But they did not....again it needed to be near some one to be used. And still a neutral faction helping to store a WMD, or the steal it with the intent use it...2 different things.
5. Allot of you do talk about her moving alliance troops...i ask where....because before this she only moved the bell to safe guard it. So again...what army did she move?
6. She did not start it...she moved a WMD out of harms way??

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Why would Jaina, leader of the Kirin Tor who were not part of the Alliance at that point, know about secret peace talks between the blood elves and the Alliance?

No, it can enhance your own troops like Garrosh did with it. The Divine Bell had powers from each of the Sha, not just the Sha of fear.

because she was friends with varian, because she was the leader of magic council that is extremely wise. etc...but lets say she did not know. Save guarding vs stealing a WMD are 2 different things.

The info they had back then was this: It fueled their hatred and anger, lending them strength on the field of battle. The bell’s screaming voice struck fear and doubt into the hearts of the Emperor's enemies.
So the emperor ( mogu) could use it to fuel them. Other people not....that is what the info was.

[Vynny]

So a person who has helped and has been dealt poor hands with working with the hord. Find outs someone in her organization used something against her is not a betrayal?

It's not a betrayal because she broke trust first. If we tell each other a secret on the condition that neither of us tells anyone else, then is it a betrayal if I tell people your secret AFTER you tell people mine? Neutrality works the same way. Since Theramore acted against the Horde first by helping the Alliance invade Horde lands, the Horde had no reason to uphold their end of the bargain of not attacking Theramore thus it's not a betrayal, it's a reprisal.

[Deleted]

Yup it was cluster fuck.

But some facts you forgot to mention ( atleast if i remember correctly).

Your version:
Jaina helps alliance to get bell > sunreavers help hord steal bell > Jaina goes full garrosh.

Non fantasy real version:

info:
- But some things you might have forgotten. Blood elfs where talking about joining the alliance because garrosh was going insane ( so it was a double betrayal)
- When stealing the bell they invaded darnassus and killed alliance members
- Alliance did not steal etc the bell...they found it.
- ohh and they hurt her love interest ( varians) boy at the time of this...
- And correct me if i am wrong...but the bell only worked in pandaria.....and it was in darnassus so it was "disarmed"
- and garrosh at this time was already doing some crazy ass shit. that even other hord members where thinking of leaving him.
- people talk about kirin tor using dalaran to move alliance troops...yup they did...but not into enemy city's...big difference there...a thin line...but still a line.
- and after all she had to for the hord, and got repaid by them ( theramore) you think she might was a bit right after a other betrayal.

so:
So you are comparing the alliance finding a bell and storing it vs stealing and invading a enemy city. And you think those 2 things are the same???

So neutral faction helps to move dangerous weapon to save location, then part of the neutral faction betrays their neutrality and help attack a city, and then try to use the bell.....and she was more wrong??? dude....jaina might be a crazy B-word....but nope...

Horde players will never ever admit they are the evil force. Never. Even after garrosh who they happyly followed till they find out they're hoing to lose and then switched sides.
You can't really reason here.

I mean personally I really like the idea of the horde being just evil and unmorally, but what is really frustrating is that some horde players seem to defend every action whith some kind of whataboutism

The Horde allways have been evil, from Wc1 and beyond. The only time they were not totally crazy genocidial maniacs was when Thrall was leading them and that time has long gone.

Sylvanas basically uses chemical and biological weapons on innocent people.
An Orc under Garrosh nuked a School of Druids, a School of a neutral faction.
Garrosh nuked a whole town.
Sylvanas is again going to nuke a whole town in BfA presumeably killing thousands of innocents.

The Horde IS evil beyond comprehension. They are composed of war mongering mongolians, heart and soulless undeads, an atztec like tribe that does blood sacrifices to the gods an some elves that are for some reason lost any sense of logic an reasoning.


I mean froma story telling perspective that is not bad, that makes the whole faction great, but they are not the good ones. The sole purpose we even have war in Warcraft is because of the Horde, all along.

The Horde is an aggressive, expansive force of war mongers and have allways been. They have continueingly betrayed everyone on every occassion and the Dalaran betrayal was only one of the many situations.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Both the Alliance and Horde are complicit in what happened in Dalaran. The Sunreavers as a whole ultimately weren't even involved with the Divine Bell affair - only Thalen Songweaver was directly involved and wasn't acting as a Sunreaver or with Aethas' approval. Aethas knew what was going to happen by dint of his relative closeness to the Horde leadership but wasn't an active participant. Jaina immediately and automatically blamed Aethas and the Sunreavers without much in the way of an investigation or any kind of evidence - she saw only that Thalen had made use of the Dalaran portal network and that sealed the Sunreavers' guilt in her eyes.

The Alliance was also using Dalaran to move its own troops with the Kirin Tor's blessing, making their previous stance of neutrality ring hollow (and provoking perhaps the first instance of actual emotion Rommath has ever exhibited in-game) and hypocritical. Ultimately the Divine Bell theft and its fallout was a culmination of the hostile detente that had existed in Dalaran since WotLK and presumably Cata - the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and led to all-out conflict between the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers.

To add to that, a promotion to nominal head of the Kirin Tor and Council is probably *not* the best thing to give to a woman who has just lost her friends, loved ones, and her entire city and is obviously suffering from great mental trauma. Jaina was right on the edge of annihilating every innocent in Orgrimmar in revenge for what Garrosh had done to Theramore, putting her in charge of a nation-state sitting atop a political powder keg was a bad idea.

This is the best summation of the incident I have seen yet. Balanced and calling out both sides.

I will add that Blizz did a poor job of writing Jaina's flip. I'm not bothered that she did flip out (she's got some seriously screwed up history with the Horde) so much as how it played out in game. You visit her once to ask her to join the Alliance and she is all calm explaining why that wouldn't be right. You visit her again and she responds to Bell's theft by killing belfs without even talking first. They needed to either give her stronger evidence that Sunreavers were responsible, or add some missing steps in there where she at least questions Aethas before she starts killing his guards.