Sunreavers and Jaina

[Friendlyimmolation]

6. She did not start it...she moved a WMD out of harms way??

Why are people still saying helping secure the bell in an Alliance city was neutral. If two nations are at war, you don't put nukes for safe keeping on one side if you are trying to prevent their use, you keep them locked up yourself, or you stay the fuck out of it. Helping one side secure them isn't neutrality.

Good intentions don't make a bad idea good.

[Aucald]

Why are people still saying helping secure the bell in an Alliance city was neutral. If two nations are at war, you don't put nukes for safe keeping on one side if you are trying to prevent their use, you keep them locked up yourself, or you stay the fuck out of it. Helping one side secure them isn't neutrality.

Good intentions don't make a bad idea good.

Presumably the Kirin Tor involved themselves in the securing of the Bell for research purposes - since finding any kind of rare and magical artifact and learning the specifics of its enchantments would be well within the Kirin Tor's wheelhouse. I'd also say it casts a bit of a pall on their presumed neutrality, but it does give them a cloak of plausible deniability. Garrosh's interest in the Bell was entirely in its military applications and he made no real moves to disguise that fact.

[Tensho14]

The Sunreavers are villains and should be trash mobs for us to wipe out in a dungeon next expansion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Presumably the Kirin Tor involved themselves in the securing of the Bell for research purposes - since finding any kind of rare and magical artifact and learning the specifics of its enchantments would be well within the Kirin Tor's wheelhouse. I'd also say it casts a bit of a pall on their presumed neutrality, but it does give them a cloak of plausible deniability. Garrosh's interest in the Bell was entirely in its military applications and he made no real moves to disguise that fact.

The point being even Lor'themar (or was it Vol'jin, or both) thought the bell was better in Horde hands. Securing the bell in Alliance territory/helping the Alliance under the guise of neutrality is just, simply put, so unrealistically ignorant of the Kirin'tor when they did the same thing in Theramore and got burned there too.

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The Sunreavers are villains and should be trash mobs for us to wipe out in a dungeon next expansion.

As long as Aethas dies first.

[Aucald]

The point being even Lor'themar (or was it Vol'jin, or both) thought the bell was better in Horde hands. Securing the bell in Alliance territory/helping the Alliance under the guise of neutrality is just, simply put, so unrealistically ignorant of the Kirin'tor when they did the same thing in Theramore and got burned there too.

Both Vol'jin and Lor'themar recognized the two factions were in an arms race - the Divine Bell definitely had military applications (which Garrosh recognized keenly), and even if the Alliance's (or at least Anduin's) stated goals were to safeguard it, there might be other elements in the Alliance with a more militaristic view on its use. I do agree the Kirin Tor was naive to think their scholarly interest would trump the bending of their neutral stance, but avarice for magic and magical relics has always been a flaw in the Kirin Tor as a group.

[rowaasr13]

The word you looking for is hypocrite.

The correct word is "judge and cleanser of murderous and traitorous horde filth". Whatever Horde does, it always ends in blood and suffering of progressively larger proportions. Garrosh is brown Hitler, as confirmed by pretty much anybody and Sunreavers provided him with WMD SECOND time, SECOND time attacking Dalaran in progress and SECOND time murdering numerous beings in process. And, according to scenario, they hardly feel any guilt about destruction it caused first time and even enjoy that. So, what did you expect, a slap on the wrist?

Yes, go ahead, hordeboiz, tell me, what is a proper punishment for murderous maniacs with fresh blood on their hands that revel in providing xenophobic lunatic with means for genocide?

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"I will do what I can to atone for the treachery of Songweaver."

He forgot to add: "...except I can do nothing because I piss my pants at the thought of Garrosh owning my ass."

[Friendlyimmolation]

The correct word is "judge and cleanser of murderous and traitorous horde filth". Whatever Horde does, it always ends in blood and suffering of progressively larger proportions. Garrosh is brown Hitler, as confirmed by pretty much anybody and Sunreavers provided him with WMD SECOND time, SECOND time attacking Dalaran in progress and SECOND time murdering numerous beings in process. And, according to scenario, they hardly feel any guilt about destruction it caused first time and even enjoy that. So, what did you expect, a slap on the wrist?

Yes, go ahead, hordeboiz, tell me, what is a proper punishment for murderous maniacs with fresh blood on their hands that revel in providing xenophobic lunatic with means for genocide?

Well I'm certain since you don't know it by now, (or just refuse canon) that almost no one knew about the bomb sans Garrosh and Thalen, and whatever mercenaries/korkron helped him steal the Iris, likewise the only sunreaver that new about the bell being stolen was Aethas, and he walked in on it already stolen.

So for someone screaming about xenophobia, you sure seem keen on punishing innocent people.

[rowaasr13]

Why are people still saying helping secure the bell in an Alliance city was neutral. If two nations are at war, you don't put nukes for safe keeping on one side if you are trying to prevent their use, you keep them locked up yourself, or you stay the fuck out of it. Helping one side secure them isn't neutrality.

Good intentions don't make a bad idea good.

Because one side is known NOT to use WMDs. And it isn't Horde.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Because one side is known NOT to use WMDs. And it isn't Horde.

That's not how that situation works at all because people don't think that way at all. Especially when Dalaran already helped the Alliance once before, the faith that the Alliance wouldn't use the bell is laughable. "We won't use it guys, trust us."

[OIS]

Because one side is known NOT to use WMDs. And it isn't Horde.

I suppose creating a tidal wave to drown an entire city doesn't count.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I suppose creating a tidal wave to drown an entire city doesn't count.

nor does nuking your own city, or creating massive bombs apparently. Or obliterating troll armies with firestorms.


Arguing about wmds as bad is bad enough as it is in a fantasy setting.

[Aquamonkey]

Not a army.....not a attack:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=32414/darnassus-attacked

The quests says attacked....?

No. The quest asks "Attacked?" There's a question mark. In the text itself, Admiral Taylor is asking the question. He doesn't know what happened. "Details are hazy - some sort of stealth attack on the city?"

[Artelia]

Well, first to all. It was not my intension blame anyone.

I trying to see why someone punish whole race for same thing she does. Not because i trying to say "Jaina evil" but because i want see truth. But i think i changed my mind.

Many of you created clever answers and good points. And some of you just see only red as bad color and shouting in every post "horde evil, horde evil" not helping really.

Either way .I hope they will fix Jaina. Only blind can't see she was hypocrit. She broke neutrality and then start kill every blood elf in city for it? I don't think horde is evil one here.

Anyway thanks for answers. You helped me understand.

[Deleted]

And when did Jaina express the willingness to listen? Was it when she outright killed Aethas' guards before she even accused him of anything?

Well maybe before she already found out about it? The whole thing would have turned out differently if Aethas would have warned Jaina that some traitors of his faction are about to steal the bell, and would have helped her to prevent the thing (even if they failed). He is the leader of the sunreavers so of course he is the first to blame when his faction fucks up. What did he expect how she would react, if she finds out that the sunreaver betrayed her and the kirin tor a second time.

[Mehrunes]

I get Thalen and Fanlyr mixed up in my head - Thalen Songweaver created the mana-bomb that took out Theramore, and Fanlyr was the Reliquary agent who participated in the Divine Bell heist. Even then, it only makes Jaina's almost automatic presumption of guilt on the part of the Sunreavers that much more unhinged.

Well, yeah, that was the gist of my post.

Well maybe before she already found out about it? The whole thing would have turned out differently if Aethas would have warned Jaina that some traitors of his faction are about to steal the bell, and would have helped her to prevent the thing (even if they failed). He is the leader of the sunreavers so of course he is the first to blame when his faction fucks up. What did he expect how she would react, if she finds out that the sunreaver betrayed her and the kirin tor a second time.

He walked on it after the fact. While Jaina was in Darnassus and wasn't exactly reachable by a member of the Horde like him. And how does Aethas holding responsibility for the Sunreavers translate to Jaina killing his guards before laying any charges? Also, not only was Jaina above Aethas, in turn being responsible for him (and the Sunreavers, because ultimately they were her subjects as the leader of Dalaran as well), she betrayed Kirin Tor first. So her reaction should have been purging the city of Jaina and then letting the rest of the Council of Six deal with the Sunreavers properly (and actually in accordance with Dalaran's law).

[Aquamonkey]

Jaina was a shitty leader. She fractured the Kirin Tor, disregarded the Council, and would ditch her duties to go be with her boyfriend.

[Arrashi]

Jaina was a shitty leader. She fractured the Kirin Tor, disregarded the Council, and would ditch her duties to go be with her boyfriend.

Leader isn't the only thing she is shitty at. She is all around shitty person.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Leader isn't the only thing she is shitty at. She is all around shitty person.

To be fair most people in WoW are shitty.

[Graden]

To be fair most people in WoW are shitty.

The Pandaren are the exception of course, and that's the reason they have suffered, more than any other, because of shitty people who take advantage of them!

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Pandaren are the exception of course, and that's the reason they have suffered, more than any other, because of shitty people who take advantage of them!

"how dare they be as oppressed as we think we are."