Theres only one possible class left they can add to the game

[Darktbs]

So we should have a class modeled after a Lich because you're not satisfied with a class modeled after a Lich King?

He is a Death knight, The character that many people fell in love, is a death knight, the spells that inspirated the Dk clas, came from him.

What fantasy class is typically associated with summoning/controlling/manipulating the undead?

Death knights, Dark knights, Necromancers, summoners, Witches, sorcerer and so on.

You're advocating for third class with a Frost spec in this very thread.

AGAIN, Teriz, you will not spin this.

Where did i say, that i want to create another class that has Unholy,Frost and Blood as it themes?I never said that i want that, Im not Ilennia, you will not spin your argumment with me.

You seem to have missed the point of that quote.

You mean that part where you acknowledge that they would play differently?No i understood fully.

Because once Necromancers ascend to Lichs, they appear to not use bone spells anymore, so if you're creating a Lich class, then bone spells will probably be absent. If you're creating a Lich spec, and one spec has frost spells, and the other has bone spells, then you got a variation of the DK class.

Let me explain how this things work, when you design classes, champions, heroes, characters.You search for things that would fit the creation and along the way you elaborate on new ideas and change things.

Thats why, despite being famous for using Warglaives, they now use Tonfa-style weapons in tanking.The idea that Arcane mages are mana dependant and the idea that Shamans can become elementals themselfs.

No game designer EVER will think like you, that the classes must only have what the Npcs have.

And Teriz, think do you really think that the wow community will cry a river, because a Lich spec summons wall of bones, they can cry because of balance shure(they always do)but because of they supposely "Stole" from Dks?Nobody cried when Dks became the second dark class and no one complained when Monks had a Fire spell.

Howling Blast and Remorseless Winter are definitely based on Lich abilities.

Repeat again, because its ICE.Your argumments are as original as ever.

They have an Arcane spell called Zapmaster 3000. I wasn't aware that that ability was in the Hunter class.

A Shot spells that deals arcane damage.Stop, deflecting.

You're comparing a so-called "Rocket Thematic" to the Lich thematic? Okay. You do understand that the other reason they control the thematic is because they have the Lich hero's spells right?

And this stops the class from being created because??

That's not my logic, and I agree, its definitely fucking retarded.

Well its one step, now you need to acknowledge ownershio.

So you feel that it doesn't fit the Lich theme when it shows up as an ability of Kel'Thuzad in another Blizzard game? I'd be pretty happy if ANY of the Tinker's abilities from HotS showed up in a WoW class

.
So you feel that Explosive shot is not enough despite being a weaker version of the Tinker spell.Just like Chains of Ice, that is a utility spell?

And like I said before, Kel'Thuzad would play like a Frost Mage, which is why Blizzard gave Mages half of his kit from WC3. This is also why Blizzard attached the remainder of the Lich concept to DKs, because as a melee/magic hybrid would play very different than Frost Mages.

"Frost nova"-Utility
"Frost armor"-Passive.

Teriz, you are not that stupid to believe that this is the Kit a Lich spec would have.

And also, lets pretend for a second that this spells were based around the Lich.There are HUNDREDS of ideas that could be used and created.But you are nitpicking so hard that you are ignoring this fact.

"Howling blast is with the Dk"Ok, lets create another spell that deals frost damage, instead of hiting everyone the spell will hit the primary target and after two seconds he will deal additional damage.There, a spell that works for the Lich and doesn't affect the Dk in ANY WAY.

You are stretching so fucking hard in a thing that is not a problem in Game Design.Which is create new things.Blizzard didn't struggle creating spells that did the same thing before and they will not struggle creating spells that do different things.

[Teriz]

And we know Blizzard will shoehorn Demon Hunters into WoW despite having half their gameplay attributed to Warlocks. This isn't the last time they would do that, and you know it.

Necromancers are cool. Rule of cool > 'gameplay overlap'.

You said it best yourself, actually

Indeed they are, which is why it makes sense to continue to push the Necromancer theme within the Death Knight class. After all, they used the Necromancer to create the class in the first place.

[Tucci]

A technology-based class is something I've been looking forward to for a while. So many awesome possibilities. I'm sure there's difficulties in fully separating it from, say, a Hunter with Engineering. But it's Blizz and I have faith. Turrets, lasers, "drones"...tons of potential.

[Rhamses]

Do people actually think that Blizzard is going to introduce a retread class (necromancer) in a retread expansion (WotLK 2.0)? That's pretty funny when you think about it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just make Clawing Shadows baseline, remove the melee abilities, restore Death Pact, and add a few more ranged Necromancer abilities to UH?

[Darktbs]

Do people actually think that Blizzard is going to introduce a retread class (necromancer) in a retread expansion (WotLK 2.0)? That's pretty funny when you think of it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just make Clawing Shadows baseline, remove the melee abilities, restore Death Pact, and add a few more Necromancer abilities to UH?

What about the people that want to play a Uh Dk?Screw then?

[Rhamses]

What about the people that want to play a Uh Dk?Screw then?

From what I could tell, the UH crowd really enjoyed fighting from ranged. Clawing Shadows was a pretty popular talent.

[Ielenia]

AGAIN, Teriz, you will not spin this.

Where did i say, that i want to create another class that has Unholy,Frost and Blood as it themes?I never said that i want that, Im not Ilennia, you will not spin your argumment with me.

That's what he does. He can't argue with your point so he makes up strawmans and misrepresents the argument. Eventually he'll argue himself into a corner, at that point he just says "he just doesn't care enough to argue about it" and declares himself the "winner".

[Darktbs]

From what I could tell, the UH crowd really enjoyed fighting from ranged. Clawing Shadows was a pretty popular talent.

-The ability to not loss Dps while moving

=/=

-Play Range.

Know the difference, how many of you guys actually play a Dk to talk all this crap?

[Drilnos]

A little tip, if you never play/learn about the class, Don't try talk shit you don't know anything about.The only classes i don't play are Monk and Druid.Which i don't speak off, you on the other hand, clearly show that you don't know what you are talking about.But, let me explain to your poor mind.

1-Dks don't have Phylacteries and can be killed, the ressurection method would be the same as it was when they were created.The Lich process of creation is different, more complex, and they can't be killed, only defeat and the ressurection method is unknown to us, because the only information we have is that as long the phylacterie exist they cannot truly die, while Dks can.

2-No, the destruction of Frostmourne wasn't necessary to kill Arthas, it was never said in anywhere that the blade kept him alive or that was necessary to destroy it before they could kill him.it destruction made it easy since the souls freed attacked the owner, you don't even know basic lore.

3-You mean like a Priest can teach First aid and Holy magic to paladins?A real life example, artists teach geometric drawing to mathematicians but the latter is not a artists or better, something in my art college, historians teach us art history, but that doesn't make us historians by any means, we just know something that interacts with our area of knowledge.


As someone who doesn't give a damn to what you do, let me sing the song of my people

Unfortunately for you, my third favorite alt is a death knight and I do, very comprehensively, not only know their lore, but I know the tropes behind them, the history of the very concept, the etymology, the whole shebang. Quite frankly, you wrote a bunch of nonsense up there, and I don't care enough to go over it point by point.

Blizzard can add a necromancer class. They can add a leprechaun class, or a man in a bunny costume class. It's their prerogative, and honestly of the three options the necromancer is the less appealing to me. Because we can't currently play as leprechauns or deranged men attired as rabbits, but the same cannot be said with a straight face for the other.

Also, your song is overused. Good day sir.

[Thimagryn]

Indeed they are, which is why it makes sense to continue to push the Necromancer theme within the Death Knight class. After all, they used the Necromancer to create the class in the first place.

Cutting metamorphosis out of Warlocks to make room for Demon Hunters also made sense, and so would gutting Necromancer themes out of Death Knights to make room for Necromancers. If we're gonna talk about what makes sense, then let's not pretend any one direction is somehow more preferred, especially when we're talking about Blizzard's creative design. They've proved enough over time that they can make anything work. Literally anything.

[AxellSlade]

We're missing the rouge.

[Darktbs]

Unfortunately for you, my third favorite alt is a death knight and I do, very comprehensively, not only know their lore, but I know the tropes behind them, the history of the very concept, the etymology, the whole shebang. Quite frankly, you wrote a bunch of nonsense up there, and I don't care enough to go over it point by point.

Also, your song is overused. Good day sir.

Considering the amount of crap you said, its hard to anyone believe.

But, keep telling that to yourself pal.

[Wildberry]

Do people actually think that Blizzard is going to introduce a retread class (necromancer) in a retread expansion (WotLK 2.0)? That's pretty funny when you think about it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just make Clawing Shadows baseline, remove the melee abilities, restore Death Pact, and add a few more ranged Necromancer abilities to UH?

Hey Rhamses, if I waste the time dignifying this nonsense with a response, will you actually provide an argument this time? Or are you going to ragequit a third thread after you're backed into a corner. There's almost something amusing about the fact that your arguments get shredded every single thread, yet you come back over and over to continue posting them.

Unfortunately for you, my third favorite alt is a death knight and I do, very comprehensively, not only know their lore, but I know the tropes behind them, the history of the very concept, the etymology, the whole shebang.

Apparently you don't, considering you were arguing Death Knights had phylacteries.

[Teriz]

Cutting metamorphosis out of Warlocks to make room for Demon Hunters also made sense, and so would gutting Necromancer themes out of Death Knights to make room for Necromancers. If we're gonna talk about what makes sense, then let's not pretend any one direction is somehow more preferred, especially when we're talking about Blizzard's creative design. They've proved enough over time that they can make anything work. Literally anything.

The difference here though is that cutting the Necromancer out of DK is like cutting demons out of Warlocks. The Necromancer theme is pretty integral to the DK design. You're also talking about spells that have been in the class since it was introduced. You could make the argument that Metamorphosis was always a DH ability, so it belonged there, but you're going to be hard pressed to argue that the DK shouldn't have Necromancer abilities when the Hero unit itself had necromancer abilities in WC3, and is based on a lore character that also has necromancer abilities.

[Thimagryn]

Do people actually think that Blizzard is going to introduce a retread class (necromancer) in a retread expansion (WotLK 2.0)? That's pretty funny when you think about it.

I dunno, what would you consider a retread? Would revisiting Outland in a different timeline be a retread, because we did that in Warlords. Would fighting demons again be a retread, because we did that in Legion.

Necromancy is a pretty big part of Warcraft's history, extending itself into multiple factions from the Scourge to the Forsaken. It has roots in Voodoo, in dark Naaru powers, in alchemy, in Mogu flesh-shaping, in Shamanism and definitely in Arcane magic. There's so many sources of Necromancy in the game that Death Knights, who only use powers granted by the Lich King, wouldn't be able to explore. We don't need a retread of Wrath of the Lich King to bring a Necromancer class. Hell, the Monk wasn't even introduced to fight anything in particular; they were just given to us.

[Teriz]

He is a Death knight, The character that many people fell in love, is a death knight, the spells that inspirated the Dk clas, came from him.

He is also The Lich King, and he is the creator of the DK class in lore. Sorry, but you just can't ignore lore because it's inconvenient towards your agenda.

Death knights, Dark knights, Necromancers, summoners, Witches, sorcerer and so on.

LoL! Talk about being dishonest.

In WoW: Witches= Warlocks, Sorcerers= Mages, Dark Knights and Necromancers= Death Knights

AGAIN, Teriz, you will not spin this.

Where did i say, that i want to create another class that has Unholy,Frost and Blood as it themes?I never said that i want that, Im not Ilennia, you will not spin your argumment with me.

You did at some point. I'll find it when I have some time.

Let me explain how this things work, when you design classes, champions, heroes, characters.You search for things that would fit the creation and along the way you elaborate on new ideas and change things.

Thats why, despite being famous for using Warglaives, they now use Tonfa-style weapons in tanking.The idea that Arcane mages are mana dependant and the idea that Shamans can become elementals themselfs.

So if you believe all of that, why do you continuously ignore the fact that Blizzard used the Necromancer concept to develop the Death Knight?

And Teriz, think do you really think that the wow community will cry a river, because a Lich spec summons wall of bones, they can cry because of balance shure(they always do)but because of they supposely "Stole" from Dks?Nobody cried when Dks became the second dark class and no one complained when Monks had a Fire spell.

Um, if Blizzard did what @Thimagryn suggested and wiped all of the Necromancer abilities from the DK class, I would be willing to bet that DK players would cry quite a bit. DK players complain when they lose one or two abilities, could you imagine if Blizzard removed one of the main concepts of one of the most popular classes in the game?

Repeat again, because its ICE.Your argumments are as original as ever.

Didn't you say earlier that one of your dream Lich abilities was an Ice storm ability? Why doesn't Remorseless Winter fit the bill?

A Shot spells that deals arcane damage.Stop, deflecting.

Which is like saying that Pyroblast and Lava Blast are the same spell because they're both huge projectile fireballs....

And this stops the class from being created because??

Because if its already in the game there's no need to bring it into the game again.

So you feel that Explosive shot is not enough despite being a weaker version of the Tinker spell.Just like Chains of Ice, that is a utility spell?

The difference here is that Explosive Shot is saddled around stuff like Aspect of the Turtle, Murder of Crows, Aspect of the Pack, Windburst, Black Arrow, and an ability that places a magical Owl in a tree. Chains of Ice is saddled around abilities like Death and Decay, Howling Blast, The Horn of Winter, Sindragosa, and Raise Dead.

It's pretty clear that Hunters ain't Tinkers. It's also pretty clear that the Necromancy theme is extremely heavy in the DK class.

"Frost nova"-Utility
"Frost armor"-Passive.

Teriz, you are not that stupid to believe that this is the Kit a Lich spec would have.

Why would just look at those abilities? The Frost Mage is loaded with offensive frost spells. Replace Frost Armor with Ice Barrier. Replace Frost Nova with any Frost Mage AoE (they have tons of them).

And also, lets pretend for a second that this spells were based around the Lich.There are HUNDREDS of ideas that could be used and created.But you are nitpicking so hard that you are ignoring this fact.

HUNDREDS of spells doesn't change what the Lich essentially is; A frost-based caster, which is a theme that collides directly with Frost Mages.

"Howling blast is with the Dk"Ok, lets create another spell that deals frost damage, instead of hiting everyone the spell will hit the primary target and after two seconds he will deal additional damage.There, a spell that works for the Lich and doesn't affect the Dk in ANY WAY.

You are stretching so fucking hard in a thing that is not a problem in Game Design.Which is create new things.Blizzard didn't struggle creating spells that did the same thing before and they will not struggle creating spells that do different things.

Actually I'm not stretching at all. The stretch here is outright ignoring what DKs provide to players who want a Necromancer experience, and outright ignoring the origins of the class and the various concepts (most of which were necromancer and UD based) in order to advance some silly idea that the game needs yet another class that raises undead minions to fight for it.

Sure Blizzard could do it, and it would be more redundant than the Demon Hunter, ultimately damaging both the new class, and the classes that it takes large amounts of concepts from. Further, going forward the development of both classes would be hindered. One only needs to look at what happened with Demonology this expansion to see this. It also goes to show how much players dislike the concept of summoning weak minions to build them up to stronger ones. It would appear that players would prefer to just summon the strong minions from the beginning.

You know, the way Death Knights do it.

[Thimagryn]

The difference here though is that cutting the Necromancer out of DK is like cutting demons out of Warlocks. The Necromancer theme is pretty integral to the DK design. You're also talking about spells that have been in the class since it was introduced. You could make the argument that Metamorphosis was always a DH ability, so it belonged there, but you're going to be hard pressed to argue that the DK shouldn't have Necromancer abilities when the Hero unit itself had necromancer abilities in WC3, and is based on a lore character that also has necromancer abilities.

Necromancer theme isn't integral to the DK design, it's supplementary. The DK could exist purely as an Anti-Paladin that has an ability to summon fallen units like in Warcraft 3 and that's still a Death Knight. They don't hinge on requiring Skeletons and Abominations and Gargoyles to function. It's not like if you removed all those abilities that you would suddenly not recognize the Death Knight. I will make the argument that all of those were always the Necromancer's abilities in WC3 and that the only ability that DK's had that dealt with Necromancy isn't even properly implemented in the game.

In Warcraft 3, they never summoned an army of skeletons or ghouls. They animated their freshly fallen victims, which is in line with what a Death Knight should actually be able to do. WoW simply lacks the mechanics to raise fallen NPC creatures that you recently killed. In the end, a DK without any summons is still easily identifiable as a DK. No other class has those dead blue eyes and pale skin.

[Teriz]

Necromancer theme isn't integral to the DK design, it's supplementary. The DK could exist purely as an Anti-Paladin that has an ability to summon fallen units like in Warcraft 3 and that's still a Death Knight. They don't hinge on requiring Skeletons and Abominations and Gargoyles to function. It's not like if you removed all those abilities that you would suddenly not recognize the Death Knight. I will make the argument that all of those were always the Necromancer's abilities in WC3 and that the only ability that DK's had that dealt with Necromancy isn't even properly implemented in the game.

In Warcraft 3, they never summoned an army of skeletons or ghouls. They animated their freshly fallen victims, which is in line with what a Death Knight should actually be able to do.

Uh, that's still Necromancy. They also manipulated various types of life energy (Unholy Aura which increased Regeneration of Undead units, Death Pact which stole life for self heal, Death Coil which hurt the living, but healed the dead), which is also a form of Necromancy. Truth be told, the Death Knight in WC3 was a hero unit based on Necromancy.

WoW simply lacks the mechanics to raise fallen NPC creatures that you recently killed. In the end, a DK without any summons is still easily identifiable as a DK. No other class has those dead blue eyes and pale skin.

Except a Necromancer.

[Thimagryn]

Uh, that's still Necromancy. They also manipulated various types of life energy (Unholy Aura which increased Regeneration of Undead units, Death Pact which stole life for self heal, Death Coil which hurt the living, but healed the dead), which is also a form of Necromancy. Truth be told, the Death Knight in WC3 was a hero unit based on Necromancy.

Yeah but they do all of that with Runic Power. They have enchanted Runeblades and use them to cast their spells. Hell, Arthas' power comes from imbued power too in a sense, he casts all his stuff through Frostmourne and from adorning himself with the helmet of the Lich King. We're even shown this with the transition of power to Bolvar, and the fact that the only way Arthas truly died was when Frostmourne was shattered.

Yes, they use Necromancy, but like it's been stated so many times, they aren't mana-based spellcasters or Necromancers. That's the entire reason why their mechanics are based on Runeblades, Runes and Runic Power instead of a simple mana bar like every other spellcasting class (including Paladins!).

You're not likely ever going to see them create alchemical horrors or grow fungal plague spores or summon (living) spiders. That stuff isn't typical for what a Death Knight would do with their Runeblades.

Except a Necromancer.

Nah, they're not white walkers. Cult of the Dead is like the Twilight's Hammer; they're so hard to find out because they're plain people. It's not like the Death Knights could have infiltrated the Alliance and Horde ranks the same way.

[Teriz]

Yeah but they do all of that with Runic Power. They have enchanted Runeblades and use them to cast their spells. Hell, Arthas' power comes from imbued power too in a sense, he casts all his stuff through Frostmourne and from adorning himself with the helmet of the Lich King. We're even shown this with the transition of power to Bolvar, and the fact that the only way Arthas truly died was when Frostmourne was shattered.

Yes, they use Necromancy, but like it's been stated so many times, they aren't mana-based spellcasters or Necromancers. That's the entire reason why their mechanics are based on Runeblades, Runes and Runic Power instead of a simple mana bar like every other spellcasting class (including Paladins!).

So we need to purge the Necromancer abilities from DKs and give them to an entirely new class because of a resource difference?

You're not likely ever going to see them create alchemical horrors or grow fungal plague spores or summon (living) spiders. That stuff isn't typical for what a Death Knight would do with their Runeblades.

Thats not typical for Necromancers either.

Nah, they're not white walkers. Cult of the Dead is like the Twilight's Hammer; they're so hard to find out because they're plain people. It's not like the Death Knights could have infiltrated the Alliance and Horde ranks the same way.

So you're saying that players wouldn't want to look undead when they're playing a necromancer?