Is Neo-nazism a real threat?

[Deleted]

The nazi defenders are worse then the nazi's, sure they won't walk on the streets saying ''jews won't replace us'' but they will happeley try to activly benefit from the same kind of talk.

Yeah that is my concern also. The hardcore neo-nazis (or is it just nazis) are always going to be a relatively small group-even under Hitler the number of true believers was a relatively small part of the population. It is the "I don't agree with nazis BUT..." crowd that's grown exponentially.

If it were socially acceptable to go along with national socialism or fascism they undoubtedly would, they'd be the people sending Jews or whomever to concentration camps. They'd then say they were only obeying orders when the system fell apart.

[Ravenblade]

No offence but I think it's the mindset of many eastern Germans that causes the problem. Many of them still live somewhat in the past and feel there was a kind of a sell out and betrayal in the German reunification process. They wanted the freedom but felt overtaken by the Wessis (Western Germans). The thing is and I hope you don't take that as an insult, they where (some still are) not used to how things work in a market economy. They are used to beeing taken care off and the concept of you have to work hard to get wealth doesn't click for some of them. What the current election has revealed is that Germany is still a deeply devided country.

The right wing Nazi Dudes in your state that you told of are just exploiting the feeling of the unwealthy that feel left behind. And there lies the problem. Only wealth would make them disappear. Western Germans jump started the east with a lot of money but still it doesn't seem enough. Imo it's still necessary to somewhat carry the East but there hast to come a time when their mindset changes also.

Sorry for OT...

Well, no offense taken, I tend to think somewhat critical about my peers too and as it happens during DDR times we were not exactly on the side of the Party with my father getting visited and bugged by the Stasi back then for various activities not actively condoned by them.
However as I am saying this I think there is one single misconception here: Neonazi activities do not have their roots in the frustration after reunification albeit organized activities are somewhat of a Western import. The DDR did little to suppress and fight far rightwing ideas because they felt themselves above the issue, we've had neonazi-related incidents in quite a few amounts already which were just thrown under the carpet of Stasi secrecy (see here (in German), here (in German) or here (in German)). Including actual racist motivated murders of course. They did catch the most notorious offenders and a lot neonazis actually recanted or even switched after reunification but a lot went under the radar. East German authorities also attempt, to this day, to downplay it because each of these cases tend leave long trails of ugly consequences such as compensations, memorial activities etc.

The people that felt thrown under the bus due to the ways how reunification was handled, felt often so rightfully as I might say, even though I disagree with their choice of voicing dissent and anger over this. I've seen my fair share of injustice, corruption and incompetence to not just imagine things. It wasn't just about how market economy, formerly touted as "social market economy", worked out for them, it were events that affected and impacted their lives and that were not based in rational economic decisions but often greed, corruption, wheeling and dealing with old Stasi connections, making backyard deals, heck, to the point that officials got appointed during a carnival session in a secluded room. However to say that people rightwing because of this would dismiss the fact that a lot people in the East voted PDS (a successor to the SED and one of the parties that later formed Die Linke), so that the media embarked on a massive Red Scare campaign of their own when talking about Saxony-Anhalt or Brandenburg, whereas Saxony and its weasely CDU government (with people like Stanisław Tilich who just recently resigned).

I also disagree that wealth would make it disappear. Wealth and prosperity are one thing, actual belief in an ideology another. A lot regions in East Germany enjoyed wealth and prosperity but they are also still rightwing havens, see Dresden. I think it's more about the fact that East Germany doesn't have classic metropolitan areas with sprawling industrial and cosmopolitan character, especially after the reunification a lot regions turned a lot more regional in character. There are a lot more "lost regions" where time seems to stand still, which is nice for tourism, not so nice for economy. People are a lot more among themselves than with others, adding to the fact is that Germany never had a real cohesive culture, the Eastern part was always a bit different, to the point of people saying that it had an almost Slavic character. When you're in Bautzen with its signs in Sorbic and German languages then you know what I mean. I think what really counts for a lot more than wealth is political education and participation, through forming of a political will you can eliminate a lot of the negativities, it turns victims into activists, bystanders into participants. That's what rightwing organizations understood very early and that's why they do have most of the success there now. You can't throw money into a forest and hope the echo is "Democracy!".

[Raakel]

You can't throw money into a forest and hope the echo is "Democracy!".

That's not what I meant as you can see from my last sentence but a part of the puzzle.

Anyway you gave a good inside view that actually changed my mind on a few things. But what I said about the mindset still applies too.

Somehow it seems I'm living in a western bubble as where I live I havn't had any contact with Nazi things for decades. They just don't exist and I still believe it's because the region is realtively prosperous.

[Ravenblade]

That's not what I meant as you can see from my last sentence but a part of the puzzle.

Anyway you gave a good inside view that actually changed my mind on a few things. But what I said about the mindset still applies too.

Somehow it seems I'm living in a western bubble as where I live I havn't had any contact with Nazi things for decades. They just don't exist and I still believe it's because the region is realtively prosperous.

Good to know. Oh, and I meant that it was basically the mindset of the politicians back then, to throw money... a bit what we call trickle-down today.

I know, when I am in the Western part the world still does look different. You travel to the Basel-Freiburg-Mulhouse triangle and you don't know what people are worrying about. Then you travel to the Frankfurt/Oder (not Main) (a city that is actually German-Polish due being on one part in Germany and another in Poland) or Zittau (whose name in Slavic stands for rye) and you see the other, a more tranquil border triangle. These regions are closer to the Czech and Polish metropolitan areas than to the larger German metropolitan areas.

[Elba]

No, people trying to justify political violence is more of a threat.

The Nazis are actually killing people in America. Death seems like the biggest threat to me.

- - - Updated - - -

No. They don't have any power to do anything except march with tiki torches.

Besides being in the White House...

[Deleted]

Their actual threat lies in that they lower the inhibition threshold towards their ideas and that usually means they will bear fruit, as with every idea if it's not countered they usually tend to creep into the minds of the people in a region.

Ultimately it all boils down to a few simple issues.

If the Left gets its way, Europe turns into an Islamic shithole and degenrates into the dark ages.
If the far right gets its way, it does not.

When things go too far and people's concerns are constantly ignored and ridiculed, and when they are threatened with punishments for speaking out their mind, they'll eventually take more radical measures to stop what they see as the greatest threat to humanity first. Then they'll deal with the fallout later.

If lefties wouldn't be the ultimate betrayers of humanity, constantly striving to destroy Western civilization, there wouldn't be any support for the far right.

[Kaleredar]

Let me get this straight... there are people saying "the neo-nazis that praise a genocidal madman and champion the cause of ethnic cleansing and have killed to do so are an oversensationalized nothing! It's the random, disorganized college students who have occasionally assualted people that are the REAL problem!"


Talk about deflection. People are so stuck on the narrative that SJWs and Antifas are some huge problem anywhere but the internet that they actively say that nazis and white supremacists in organized marches are "no big deal."

Ultimately it all boils down to a few simple issues.

If the Left gets its way, Europe turns into an Islamic shithole and degenrates into the dark ages.
If the far right gets its way, it does not.

When things go too far and people's concerns are constantly ignored and ridiculed, and when they are threatened with punishments for speaking out their mind, they'll eventually take more radical measures to stop what they see as the greatest threat to humanity first. Then they'll deal with the fallout later.

If lefties wouldn't be the ultimate betrayers of humanity, constantly striving to destroy Western civilization, there wouldn't be any support for the far right.

Maybe, in the course of using random acts of violence to pursue a political message (i.e, terrorism) those neo-nazis actively work towards turning the place into a nazi shithole in the dark ages.

World History seems to indicate that violent fascists do not suddenly become "benevolent rulers" when they finally exterminate all the people they don't want to exist. That's tantamount to saying "Well if Germany had won in World War 2 the world would have been a lovely place after they had gotten rid of all the jews, homosexuals, and other people they deemed inferior and they'd certainly have turned all the prison camps into zoos and playgrounds!"

Fascists are fascists, through and through.

You're acting like there's some profound difference in the narrative of neo-nazis and islamic terrorists. There really isn't, save for who they specifically think deserves to live and die. So if you're condoning one you're condoning the other, and if you're not condemning them both you're a hypocrite.

[Elba]

Not yet, but I suspect as SJWs continue to crybully people into ruined lives/careers by accusing them of being white supremacists/Nazis (as well as all the isms and phobias) for simply disagreeing with them/every little slight, they will be in the future.

When Joe Schmoe says "I agree with Trump's immigration policy!" on Facebook and a bunch of whiny college students email his employer and go on about "Joe Schmoe is over on Facebook spouting racist white supremacy and its making your company look bad! He's a Nazi!" And they fire Joe Schmoe, ruining his career and life and permanently labeling him an outcast, cutting him off from civilized society, etc... Where else can he turn? Oh yeah, actual white supremacists and neo-Nazis, the only place where what he has been accused of is accepted; thus swelling their ranks. Unless he wants to kill himself or sit alone in his house for the rest of his life?

You know, like criminals and recidivism... When you label them a felon and ostracize them from civilized society, lo and behold they fall even deeper in with other criminals since that is the only outlet available to them.

Such occurrences are rare at this time, for normal people (relative to right wing internet celebrities who get accused of being Nazis every waking second)... But as I said, I expect it to become more prevalent the farther down the social justice rabbit hole we go.

So, don't call out racists or they will racist some more?

[Runenwächter]

Coming from a German state that has a significant amount of neonazi activities I tend to think somewhat differently about this.

Neonazis here are far better organized and know how to "play the law" very well. They are not just a rag-tag street gang, in fact their higher echelons are not stupid and usually well-connected. They did at one point even get the indirect backing from the state - namely the Constitution Protection Agency did pay neonazis as undercover agents and got sucked into many a scandals that rocked the state especially during the aftermath of the reveal of the NSU murders.

When people lament about "lawless zones" we do so by referring to "nationally liberated" regions where neonazis openly have seized control in defiance of the state with poor opposition from police forces who are even sometimes caught sympathizing with them because in their minds it's just some "concerned" people being a bit "rash". We have had a recent case of a Left politician from a neighbouring state (equally infested with neonazis and far rightwing groups) being openly attacked and hunted to the point that he chose to leave for another state in order to feel more safe especially since, as it came out, he narrowly escaped another assassination attempt. Disagree what you want with the Left but this is outright dangerous behaviour in a democracy, that's the situation as it was in the 1920s Weimar Republic.
It is no coincidence that regions with heavy neonazi activity are economically poorer, usually because these activities do hamper investment efforts as they do scare away investors and due to these lack of investment efforts people shift more right or are more sympathetic to them, or at least do tolerate their behaviour in their neighbourhood. They effectivelly see their presence as a result of being victim of (unjustified) public scorn and collective punishment.

Their actual threat lies in that they lower the inhibition threshold towards their ideas and that usually means they will bear fruit, as with every idea if it's not countered they usually tend to creep into the minds of the people in a region. The more they are the easier it is to harass dissidents to their ideas and the opposition without much repercussion since the affected would rather flee than stay. I don't see them as a national threat, yet, but regionally they are a real issue. There is no downplaying needed as there's heaps of documentation files on them and even more so, I personally do know people who had to cooperate under threat with these people just because they owned an establishment such as a ballroom for rent for closed events.

Germany has far more islamists than it has neo nazis.

Germany has no nationaly liberated zones that the public ever hears of. Same cant be said about the decline of public orders in muslim minority neighborhoods.

One Amri killed more people and posed a far higher threat to the lives of Germans than the NSU ever did. Lets not even get into the murders of charlie hebdo and van gogh.

Violent political motivated crime in the election came mostly from the left, not from the right. Attacks on right wing politicians and activists are not treated nearly the same as viceversa.

No one has to watch the security of mosques in Germany. Cant be said for synagogues. The worst antisemitic actors arent nazis, its the left in colusion with islamic antisemites who get a free pass.

It is a load of bullshit that the regions where "nazis" are prevalent are poorer because "nazis" hamper investment. Thats outright history revisionism. This idea is stupid beyond belief. If people dont care about investing in Berlin despite the petty crime, the rampant drug dealing, the arabic clans running organized crime and the far more prevalent violent crime it sure as hell isnt the "nazis" in German provinces that are keeping the economy down.
One major reason is that during the occupation and during the DDR eastern germany didnt exactly prosper and still has to catch up. There is also the problem of infrastructure and aging population which makes it less interesting for bigger investors.

Your last paragraph isnt even funny anymore. A democratically elected party has to fight tooth and nail to even get a venue because of antifa threats of violence. It has become so bad that you cant even rent a a venue to a party that is democratically elected to represent 13% of the voters or you will get death threats and your property damaged.

You want to see a threat to democracy: Turn your head to the (far)left.

[Machismo]

"nazi" is the last win button insult that the cucks have to throw. its the worst conceivable sin in their cult of multiculturalism.
and youre literally about to wear it out hahahahahahaha

guess what guys, its ok to be white

Speaking of wearing out words... "cuck" died out a very long time ago.

- - - Updated - - -

Ultimately it all boils down to a few simple issues.

If the Left gets its way, Europe turns into an Islamic shithole and degenrates into the dark ages.
If the far right gets its way, it does not.

When things go too far and people's concerns are constantly ignored and ridiculed, and when they are threatened with punishments for speaking out their mind, they'll eventually take more radical measures to stop what they see as the greatest threat to humanity first. Then they'll deal with the fallout later.

If lefties wouldn't be the ultimate betrayers of humanity, constantly striving to destroy Western civilization, there wouldn't be any support for the far right.

That's some pretty extreme beliefs on your part.

No thanks, I'm still going to oppose the rightwing Nazi sympathizers and radical Islamists who want to harm people. Fuck everyone who wants to take away the freedoms of innocent people in order to force their culture onto others.

[ParanoiD84]

Sure we have all those islamic terrorist attacks going on, nazis/islamic terrorism same shit, genocides, ethnic cleansings etc etc.

The media likes to paint the Nazis as a huge threat though.

[JohnBrown1917]

At the moment, neo-nazism is not a real threat. Angry rioting unemployed liberal arts students pretending everyone who disagrees with them is a nazi ARE a threat.

Rioting is worse than killing people?

[Ravenblade]

Ultimately it all boils down to a few simple issues.

If the Left gets its way, Europe turns into an Islamic shithole and degenrates into the dark ages.
If the far right gets its way, it does not.

When things go too far and people's concerns are constantly ignored and ridiculed, and when they are threatened with punishments for speaking out their mind, they'll eventually take more radical measures to stop what they see as the greatest threat to humanity first. Then they'll deal with the fallout later.

If lefties wouldn't be the ultimate betrayers of humanity, constantly striving to destroy Western civilization, there wouldn't be any support for the far right.

Islamists and neo-nazis share a lot common values such as the traditional roles of genders in society, on sexuality, on Jews, on preservation of aspects of culture and tradition, on governance, on treatment of political opponents, on religious and cultural tolerance, on war as a means to further your efforts and on justice and crime. So I am surprised these two hate each other so much.

Ultimately though you are trying to paint these people in general fear of Islam when Islam is just the newest boogeyman and the real one is "The Stranger" but moreover the stranger that supposedly is eroding our culture and reaping more benefits than the native who worked hard his/her whole life and always honoured the ways of the forefathers. These have existed long before Islamism became even a hot topic, and I doubt Islam will ever become a problem in those regions where it is "feared" most. Islamists usually seek out the greater metropolitan areas in Germany, mainly because they will find more likeminded people and more people that could pose as excellent target. There is nothing to gain from stabbing an elderly woman in a hinterland village and yell "Allah'u akhbar!". So basically: A lot of this fear is projected, it is not naturally grown or has any basis in real experienced events.

So I don't see how these people will help prevent anything, their goal is about as old as their core ideology itself: controlling population through ideology as a means to counter any attempted efforts of the "illegitimate" government which in their eyes are "puppets of their Jewish overlords" still. Only these days they are more subtle and they count on many connections up into the administrations themselves.

[Dezerte]

Maybe, in terms of political and societal impact. We have several political parties around the world who seem a bit too close to Neo-nazism.

[Deleted]

Islamists and neo-nazis share a lot common values such as the traditional roles of genders in society, on sexuality, on Jews, on preservation of aspects of culture and tradition, on governance, on treatment of political opponents, on religious and cultural tolerance, on war as a means to further your efforts and on justice and crime. So I am surprised these two hate each other so much.

Really? Ones are white the others are not, good enough reason to hate each others guts.

So I don't see how these people will help prevent anything, their goal is about as old as their core ideology itself: controlling population through ideology as a means to counter any attempted efforts of the "illegitimate" government which in their eyes are "puppets of their Jewish overlords" still. Only these days they are more subtle and they count on many connections up into the administrations themselves.

Here's the thing...if one country embraces neo-nazism it will be isolated and sanctioned upon by others so no that won't solve anything. Today's world is run by globalists who are pushing down repackaged communism through useful idiots (SJW's, femists, libtards etc.) and controlled opposition (alt-right). The only thing they care about is power and domination over all world while giving you a sense of freedom. They don't care about your race, color, political views, religion...You are slave to them, born to work and make them money. The root of all evil in this world is globalism so if you want to change anything I'd start there.

[Ravenblade]

Germany has far more islamists than it has neo nazis.

I don't know whether that's true or whether that's relevant. One danger doesn't make the other one ignorable. They are both relevant factors in Germany in their respective regions.

Germany has no nationaly liberated zones that the public ever hears of. Same cant be said about the decline of public orders in muslim minority neighborhoods.

Can always move to Freital or Heidenau, Colditz or Jamel if you ever feel uncomfortable in your Muslim neighbourhood. Here in my state it is an open secret that these zones operate by expanding through acquisition of estate and land property, works well. Of course the term "nationally liberated" bears no legal character, it is of purely a symbolic character for those seeking to escape "multi-culture" and seek for ideologically compatible neighbourhood.

One Amri killed more people and posed a far higher threat to the lives of Germans than the NSU ever did. Lets not even get into the murders of charlie hebdo and van gogh.

What is with "X killed more than Y" as an attempt to justify one evil over another? Amri could have been prevented if the authorities didn't commit so many damning mistakes and if communication would have worked better. NSU could not have been prevented even if they tried because they actually had even backing, even though it was accidental. The fact that Mundlos' and Böhnhard's deaths are still surrounded by oddities, one of which implies the police of Eisenach itself, hasn't helped much. You are overlooking though that Islamists tend to act in the open, they go and try to kill people, Neonazis don't outright kill people in the open if they can avoid it, they use intimidation and eviction tactics before committing anything like that, and even then it's more about single assassinations rather than a killing spree. The effect is supposedly similar: Spread fear amongst those who haven't join your cause yet or face something similar.

Violent political motivated crime in the election came mostly from the left, not from the right. Attacks on right wing politicians and activists are not treated nearly the same as viceversa.

For my state the statistics can be seen here (in German). This is another attempt at creating an equivalency effect by comparing whose side got more victims. Left and rightwing extremism are not equal in kind, they differ in expression, motives, their selected target types and messages. They are also regionally different. It is also not just the violence that radiates danger. Most Islamists are peaceful as well, by our definition, but their message speaks of violence and hate.

It is a load of bullshit that the regions where "nazis" are prevalent are poorer because "nazis" hamper investment. Thats outright history revisionism. This idea is stupid beyond belief. If people dont care about investing in Berlin despite the petty crime, the rampant drug dealing, the arabic clans running organized crime and the far more prevalent violent crime it sure as hell isnt the "nazis" in German provinces that are keeping the economy down.
One major reason is that during the occupation and during the DDR eastern germany didnt exactly prosper and still has to catch up. There is also the problem of infrastructure and aging population which makes it less interesting for bigger investors.

Again, what is with these comparisons? Berlin's trouble with clans is one issue, similar to Bremen, however it does bear not relevance say areas marked "Nazi Kiez" in Chemnitz-Sonnenberg which does have an effect on who moves there and who moves away. Regionally Dresden has suffered a blow to tourism because of Pegida and it is generally not a fairytale (in German).

Your last paragraph isnt even funny anymore. A democratically elected party has to fight tooth and nail to even get a venue because of antifa threats of violence. It has become so bad that you cant even rent a a venue to a party that is democratically elected to represent 13% of the voters or you will get death threats and your property damaged.

You want to see a threat to democracy: Turn your head to the (far)left.

You want to to see a threat to democracy: stop turning your head only in one direction.

You are trying to make things equal again. This thread is about threat of neonazis being real. I am retelling things as I have got to know them myself over the last two decades here myself. I am fine with protesting a gathering outside of a rented property; threatening or stalking their own owners, demolishing their property, however, these are the things that marked the times of the early Weimar Republic. Do we really need that again? Some people thinking their cause is greater than the law they are trying to break and thus can allow circumventing the laws and the democratic process altogether. Yes, I agree, my last paragraph wasn't even meant to be funny because it's happened, and it's all connected to this story (in German). If you knew anything about "old cronyist networks" in Thuringia, Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt then you wouldn't scoff at it as overdramatization. The danger doesn't come explicitly from violence, it's the intimidating presence of their ideology and the safety they enjoy (either due to passivity, sympathy or "leave me in peace" attitude born out of intimidation) and the networks they can create. It's a parallel society of their own and in the East it goes back to DDR times where Kameradschaften were usually gathering in some secluded dachas under the guys of birthday celebrations and some such.

Really? Ones are white the others are not, good enough reason to hate each others guts.

There are Caucasian Islamists. They are counted among the front fighters of the Islamic State even.

[Deleted]

There are Caucasian Islamists. They are counted among the front fighters of the Islamic State even.

There are black neo-nazis as well, so that's an exception not a rule.

[Deleted]

Well they might be a threat over there. But being American I really only care if it's a threat to me and the US, and neo-nazi's rank with the KKK as being nearly irrelevant in terms of membership and size.

I'm glad you're ok Joe.

Sadly since trump promoted Britain first movement they've had 10000 applications to join

- - - Updated - - -

There are black neo-nazis as well, so that's an exception not a rule.

Link to black neo Nazis please

[Ravenblade]

There are black neo-nazis as well, so that's an exception not a rule.

No, it's not an exception. The Chechnyan war has bred many combat-ready Islamists in the Caucasian region. Whenever there was an Islamist attack in Russia they came from that region. Mostly either from Chechnya, Dagestan or Ingushetia.

[Noxx79]

And when a link is provided it will be quickly dismissed.

- - - Updated - - -







Surprise, surprise!! Links dismissed on MMOC? Gasp!!

- - - Updated - - -



Of this you are correct my friend.

Cheers!

Surprise surprise, ally doesn’t understand how something works: more signs of him being over his head.
Yes, child. This is how a debate works. Someone presents evidence, and someone else provides evidence as to why and why not apples.

Are you really this dense? You need to go and learn how communication works, child. You’re out of your intellectual depth, child.

Whining about source shaming when you have mds is the height of hypocrisy.

infracted - trolling