Vanilla stats too complicated for retailers

[Daffan]

who cares about stats when everyone is going to ues pre-bis guides and generally it don't matter.

[Akka]

... So, a player equipping +ilvl pieces without second thought confirmed in your case then?

No, more "Legion stat are extremely boring, so I prefer to just stick to a generalist spec and optimize this one". Stat won't change my playstyle in Legion. What will is my spec and talents, and these affect which stat give a higher output, and if you carry lots of gear it's to optimize your damage along these different spec and talents. It's not the stat in themselves.

Stats weren't complicated back then, people were just far more retarded.

Seems that it didn't change with the time for some.

As someone leveling characters 1- max level on a regular basis, I can say that you're wrong.

Actually no, he's spot-on. Either we didn't play the same game, or we have radically different perceptions and criteria. Claiming that the world is alive is 0_o

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block value and block % were the exact same stat and given 1 term on gear "block". Tanks didn't have to get strength, it was given to them on gear. If it didn't have stam on it, it wasn't for a tank. Tanks got crit immune first (defense, dodge, parry, block combined) then worried about strength and stam. Weapon skill wasn't on ANY gear...it was reached by using your weapon on stuff. Resistance was only needed on certain bosses and those numbers were usually relatively low & easy to get. The only reason why defense was wanted on gear was to get to def cap to get crit immune (and you already had 300 def just from being lvl 60).

physical damage DPS:
get hit capped then worry about your crit and strength (or agility for hunters)

spell damage dps:
get spell hit capped then worry about your +damage/healing amount, crit, and intel (spell penetration if you did pvp)

healers:
get all the +healing gear you can then enough spirit (priest/druid) or mp5 (paladin/shaman) to allow maximum mana regen while not casting then worry about crit and intel

Boy does that seem difficult. I guess I should get a blog started & post this online for someone to read since guides like this don't exist and never have. Good thing stuff like hit, defense, spell penetration, spirit, +damage/healing, +healing, dodge, parry, block, etc has been removed from the game so we can focus on new stuff like haste, mastery, crit, crit damage, etc which are all new & totally not told about how to get the best stats of those online as well.

Nearly everything you typed here is wrong on some level, so it's pretty comical to see you act all high and condescending about sharing your "superior knowledge".

- Block percentage and block value are NOT AT ALL the same thing and weren't affected by the same stat.
- There was gear with weapon skill.
- Defense is actually a pretty powerful stat for a tank beyond the crit immune (increased parry, block percentage, added miss for foe).
- There is several hit cap depending on your class, and there wasn't enough % to hit gear to reach anything but the special attack cap.
- MP5 worked while casting.

No, stats aren't complicated, not now, not ever. There's literally no difference in how stats worked then and how stats work now.

Actually, yes there is, and many stat aren't in the game at all anymore.

[gaymer77]

Nearly everything you typed here is wrong on some level, so it's pretty comical to see you act all high and condescending about sharing your "superior knowledge".

- Block percentage and block value are NOT AT ALL the same thing and weren't affected by the same stat.
- There was gear with weapon skill.
- Defense is actually a pretty powerful stat for a tank beyond the crit immune (increased parry, block percentage, added miss for foe).
- There is several hit cap depending on your class, and there wasn't enough % to hit gear to reach anything but the special attack cap.
- MP5 worked while casting.

There was hardly any lvl 60 gear with weapon skill on it. The reason for this is because it was assumed when you were 60 you had maxed out your weapon skill and therefor did not need a boost since it did absolutely nothing to increase your damage done or chance to hit. Block value is how much damage you blocked & block percentage is how often you blocked (RNG anyone?). Defense was good and once you reached crit immune, added def did nothing for the tank besides be a cushion in case he got a replacement piece of gear that had lower defense on it so he could still remain crit immune. Yes several hit caps for different classes. I didn't say "melee hit cap" and "caster hit cap" for a reason. Physical damage DPS meant if your attacks were physical damage you had to worry about those stats for your physical attacks. Spell damage dps meant if your attacks were magic based (this included hunters, paladins, and enhancement shaman) you had to worry about those stats for your spell attacks. If you used both physical and spell attacks (see previous parentheses) then you had to worry about BOTH of those. I did make one mistake though, when I said spell damage dps I forgot the word "spell crit" when I said "crit". Yes, melee has never been able to get hit capped for white damage (some were able to get very close during Wrath I think it was) but nobody ever achieved this. That's why melee got special hit capped (lower for using a 2h weapon than it was for DW) and then didn't worry about the stat much (similar to haste breakpoints where you reached certain numbers first and then didn't worry about it until you were close to the other breakpoint). And finally, yes I'm aware MP5 worked while casting. Priests & druids did not worry about MP5 because they got more regen from spirit by using the 5 second rule (cast & then not do anything for 5 seconds so your in-combat regen switched to out of combat regen).

Did I miss anything @Akka?

[Akka]

There was hardly any lvl 60 gear with weapon skill on it. The reason for this is because it was assumed when you were 60 you had maxed out your weapon skill and therefor did not need a boost since it did absolutely nothing to increase your damage done or chance to hit.

Knowing that weapon skill was the single highest DPS stat in the game for melee, that's rather humorous to read. It's also factually wrong (it DOES increase your chances to hit).

Most of the rest of your post is still missing plenty of details and wrong about others.

So we're back to what I was saying : the stat in WoW ARE, actually, somewhat convoluted and complicated and require a decent amount of thoughts and testing to get what they do and how to get benefit from them, and a decent amount of knowledge to remember all the details and effects.

What's easy is to mindlessly copy-paste what someone else who did the hard work said. And 99 % of the time, when someone act all condescending and arrogant about how it's all soooo easy and only retards wouldn't know, they are exactly in this case. Which is made all the more funny when they then makes tons of errors, contradicting their claims.

[deniter]

I believe the weapon skill increase and how it works on maxed level character was an oversight from Blizzards part. I'm pretty sure they didn't think anyone would use lvl 44 item (Edgemaster's Handguards) in high level content and get such a huge benefit from doing so.

In this sense you can say itemization was maybe not bad but poorly thought out in vanilla.

[Deleted]

Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?

I doubt you played Vanilla.

But Legion is actually more complicated than all the expansions combined together.

[Mosotti]

Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?

There's another solution for this. If your brain is too small and it has too few neurons and also too few connections between those few neurons, just don't play that "extremely complicated shit".

[Deleted]

Again someone trying to prove himself that Vanilla was somehow complicated and hard and retailers are just bad so thats why they wont play Vanilla. If you say that statbalancing is complicated and hard I wonder how your daily life goes..

And this is coming from someone who will play the shit out of Vanilla, I just don't lie to myself and say it's harder than retail, because it's not. Just more grindy and I don't consider that hard.. Yeah low level content is harder but late game is ALOT easier

[Moozart]

God I hope "retailers" doesn't catch on

Clearly you haven't been hearing about people's main complaint with Legion? Legendaries and RNG. The problem is people would get an item that's higher ilvl but the stats are crap, itemization is one of the biggest complaints so that already contradicts your last statement.

Also stats weren't complicated at all. Don't get me wrong, I preferred it to the watered down version we have now, but don't overhype it when it's really the same thing just bloated. Classes might have 1 or 2 thresholds to hit whereas back then you had 3 or 4. It was annoying playing enhancement and having to max out spell hit instead of regular hit, but part of me misses it as well.

Not sure who came up with this but I hope they realize Classic server will NOT be free, they will still have to pay the same monthly cost as everyone else. Its just playing on a different server LOL

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Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?

I can see from your post that you either did not actually play Vanilla or if you did you were not NEARLY as good as YOU think you were...

As someone who raid all the way through Naxx I can absolutely say there were Standard BIS list on many websites, there were cookie cutter specs for end game ect. NOTHING has changed in that aspect. We still had spreadsheets to tally up what gear would sim what dps ECT.
There were many websites like icy veins ect in vanilla

Thottbot
Elitist Jerks
Tankspot
Shadowpanther

Just to name a few. Not to mention there were Addons that flat told you what item/stats would work best for you.

It was not NEARLY as difficult as you (ok well maybe it was difficult for YOU)make it out to be.

[Toogoodman]

Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?

Lmao what?

1) Back then, as a rogue, it was all about the hit% and weapon skill, literally just looking for the best item with those stats, and keeping a balance of 18+ hit for raiding

2) Tanks used dodge for heavy damage fights like patchwerk, resistance items for heavy elemental damage fights like Rag/Huhu/Saph, they tried to balance 3-5% hit for threat (a stat you missed), and they used defense cap for most other fights. Fights like patchwerk, you needed a shit ton of dodge because he hit for so much, that any advantage you could your healers was needed. This is not a hard concept

3) Most gear in retail isnt "equip the highest item level". Classes have stat priorities, stat break points, and stat weights. You pool your gear, and run sims to determine which is the best item, if you don't think similar mods, and services wont be made for the classic server you're delusional.

4) Vanilla, was a much easier game in every way, when it comes to endgame. Everything was just grinding, as someone who played vanilla, played feenix, played nost, and plays retail now in a top 100 US guild, I think I would know. The fact that you have these assertions is just evidence that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Also, look at something like relics, you could have a 970 relic, and a 930 relic with the proper trait, and proper NLC pathing is going to be far superior.

[Moozart]

Actually, there were forums and websites for that back then as well. Maybe not as many, but they were there. I'm pretty sure sites like WoWhead, icy-veins and the like will see a Classic section as well, so there's no need to simplify anything.

You sure you're not asking stuff to be simplified for yourself?

back then most question in game were answered with 1 word.. "Thottbot"

[Queen of Hamsters]

No, more "Legion stat are extremely boring, so I prefer to just stick to a generalist spec and optimize this one". Stat won't change my playstyle in Legion. What will is my spec and talents, and these affect which stat give a higher output, and if you carry lots of gear it's to optimize your damage along these different spec and talents. It's not the stat in themselves.


Actually no, he's spot-on. Either we didn't play the same game, or we have radically different perceptions and criteria. Claiming that the world is alive is 0_o
.

So you change the goalposts from customization to "stats not being interesting"... Well, have fun wearing the exact same pieces of loot forever more in Classic I suppose. Meanwhile I'll keep varying my spec by gear and talents for reasons ranging from "optimization" to "more fun". "Legion stats are boring", man you people grasp at straws...

And you're as wrong as that other poster when you proclaim that the world isn't alive. It is, which is not a bad feat considering the game is 13 years old AND offers boosts to 100.

And that is before they've implemented level scaling + the Allied race rewards for leveling 20-120.

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Lmao what?

1) Back then, as a rogue, it was all about the hit% and weapon skill, literally just looking for the best item with those stats, and keeping a balance of 18+ hit for raiding

2) Tanks used dodge for heavy damage fights like patchwerk, resistance items for heavy elemental damage fights like Rag/Huhu/Saph, they tried to balance 3-5% hit for threat (a stat you missed), and they used defense cap for most other fights. Fights like patchwerk, you needed a shit ton of dodge because he hit for so much, that any advantage you could your healers was needed. This is not a hard concept

3) Most gear in retail isnt "equip the highest item level". Classes have stat priorities, stat break points, and stat weights. You pool your gear, and run sims to determine which is the best item, if you don't think similar mods, and services wont be made for the classic server you're delusional.

4) Vanilla, was a much easier game in every way, when it comes to endgame. Everything was just grinding, as someone who played vanilla, played feenix, played nost, and plays retail now in a top 100 US guild, I think I would know. The fact that you have these assertions is just evidence that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Also, look at something like relics, you could have a 970 relic, and a 930 relic with the proper trait, and proper NLC pathing is going to be far superior.

Wish we could +1 posts on these forums, because this one deserves it!

[Deleted]

I think TBC is the first game where people actually looked at stats, in Vanilla maybe tanks for crit cap.

[Detheavn]

back then most question in game were answered with 1 word.. "Thottbot"

Don't forget Goblin Workshop. With regards to quests it was a bit more fleshed out in the beginning, but Thottbot gained more ground by expanding faster

[Akka]

So you change the goalposts from customization to "stats not being interesting"...

My point is that with Legion you just have a ranking of stat by output. The order might change depending on your talent, but it hardly change anything else.
Vanilla has more stat, and they do change how you play (though TBH it's mainly with TBC and the jewelcrafting and additionnal enchanting it could take a larger room). Someone else gave a pretty good explanation of how you would use really different stat with different effects depending on the content.

"Legion stats are boring", man you people grasp at straws...

Don't project yourself, please.
Stat in Legion ARE boring. Nearly every item is "Power + stamina + 2 random secondary stat". Versatility is boring as hell, mastery feels artificial.
Stat in Vanilla felt more natural, and their effects more down-to-earth and logical (as far as wearing some piece of attire making you smarter/more agile or whatever, but that's another problem). Their effects were more RPG-like, and there were more intricacies (which could be trap for newbies, but also the fun things to learn around).

And you're as wrong as that other poster when you proclaim that the world isn't alive. It is, which is not a bad feat considering the game is 13 years old AND offers boosts to 100.

Pure bullshit. I leveled my monk in Legion. There was next to nobody in the world, and even at high level it's mostly people from other servers (and even from entirely different kind of realm, like PvE russian servers mixed with PvP german ones).

And that is before they've implemented level scaling + the Allied race rewards for leveling 20-120.

Level scaling is an utterly retarded concept. If they are going to use this shit, they should remove level altogether instead (or compress the game to just 10 levels so each one actually has meaning).

[Queen of Hamsters]

My point is that with Legion you just have a ranking of stat by output. The order might change depending on your talent, but it hardly change anything else.
Vanilla has more stat, and they do change how you play (though TBH it's mainly with TBC and the jewelcrafting and additionnal enchanting it could take a larger room). Someone else gave a pretty good explanation of how you would use really different stat with different effects depending on the content.

Don't project yourself, please.
Stat in Legion ARE boring. Nearly every item is "Power + stamina + 2 random secondary stat". Versatility is boring as hell, mastery feels artificial.
Stat in Vanilla felt more natural, and their effects more down-to-earth and logical (as far as wearing some piece of attire making you smarter/more agile or whatever, but that's another problem). Their effects were more RPG-like, and there were more intricacies (which could be trap for newbies, but also the fun things to learn around).

Pure bullshit. I leveled my monk in Legion. There was next to nobody in the world, and even at high level it's mostly people from other servers (and even from entirely different kind of realm, like PvE russian servers mixed with PvP german ones).

Level scaling is an utterly retarded concept. If they are going to use this shit, they should remove level altogether instead (or compress the game to just 10 levels so each one actually has meaning).

You're so wrong on so many points, and downright delusional on others. I level a shaman right now, and I see people out in each zone. Both from my own server (big PVE server) as well as through CRZ. Fact.


Not worth discussing with someone that's so damned blind and unwilling to accept the benefits of the present because he's desperate to cling to the old. If Legion stats are "boring", Classic stats are dust-tier. As for "level scaling being an utterly retarded concept", you're laughable. Level scaling will ensure that players stick with zones to the end and not feel compelled to move on once they start to outlevel the quests and mobs. But apparently they can "make the levels mean something again" by gutting the game down to 10 levels... Delusional, as I said.

[Akka]

You're so wrong on so many points, and downright delusional on others. I level a shaman right now, and I see people out in each zone. Both from my own server (big PVE server) as well as through CRZ. Fact.

Well, either your server shards are much more populated than mine, or you're full of shit.

Not worth discussing with someone that's so damned blind and unwilling to accept the benefits of the present because he's desperate to cling to the old.

Someone is mad that not everyone agrees with him it seems.

As for "level scaling being an utterly retarded concept", you're laughable.

I'm factual. Level scaling is retarded, it simply removes the level factor.
It's like doing "X+A-A". It just ends up with "X", the whole "A-A" operation ends up a wash.
Though I guess if you can't even understand such obvious logic, maybe that explains a lot of the rest of your argumentation.

Note : "delusional" doesn't mean what you use it for.

[rda]

Well, either your server shards are much more populated than mine, or you're full of shit.

Yeah, I think she means a guy or two per zone in the course of an hour. Or nobody if the zone is something like Feralas or Borean Tundra.

[Eleccybubb]

Yeah, I think she means a guy or two per zone in the course of an hour. Or nobody if the zone is something like Feralas or Borean Tundra.

What's wrong with Feralas? :O

I like that zone.

[rda]

What's wrong with Feralas? :O

I like that zone.

Nothing wrong with it, I like it too, it's just that there are even fewer people there than in average zone on EK / Kali.