So Alliance lost the Nightborne beacuse Tyrande was a dick?

[sillag]

Headcanon is declaring they're Conquerors who want to take over the world and that's why they joined the Horde, Ajidahek. I haven't argued with you about whether datamined lines exist, I've argued about your interpretation of their motivations.

i could buy that if the first thing thalyssra says when she joins the horde wasnt "and now im gonna go to ashenvale to kill night elves"

i mean come on dude they literally just saved your city and put you in charge and now youre gonna go start killing them. i get her not liking them or w/e for not liking magic but this is a flat out personality transplant from the thalyssra we played in legion with

it just confirms the fear that bfa is gonna have everyone disregard everything else and put on a red or blue shirt and start killing each other. wheres the heart in wow anymore. thats what i wanna know.

[Zorish]

To everyone telling "Nightborne should stay neutral"

Okay let's think about history, logic and etc. They sitting in the middle of ocean. Between 2 continents almost in the middle. Both continents go in war! BOTH! so... how do you think - what will happen with a little kingdom wich sit between 2 fatass factions. ON THE BEST STRATEGIC ROUT TO BOTH CONTINENTS! AFTER FU**ING CIVIL WAR! Weakened, and bleeding. They can't keep their neutrality in current state.
It's like you presented with 2 chairs. Nightborne MUST make the choice - so they made it toward someone who are NOT ARROGANT ARCANEHATING Night elf. To someone who even after WotA events swallowed their pride and saw them as their brothers, not as thing wich "make things done".
Everyone who will answer pandaria. Pandaria sit not on the main road between 2 continents and have more forces (and celestials on top of it) than single suramar city and it's inhabitants, who are weak after all events happened. Even if pandaria can be conquered - it will drink MUCH MORE blood from attacker than suramar (especialy after nightwell destroyed).

[Steampunkette]

i could buy that if the first thing thalyssra says when she joins the horde wasnt "and now im gonna go to ashenvale to kill night elves"

i mean come on dude they literally just saved your city and put you in charge and now youre gonna go start killing them. i get her not liking them or w/e for not liking magic but this is a flat out personality transplant from the thalyssra we played in legion with

it just confirms the fear that bfa is gonna have everyone disregard everything else and put on a red or blue shirt and start killing each other. wheres the heart in wow anymore. thats what i wanna know.

Is that a datamined line that I haven't read, yet, or is that you painting her as badly as you can in light of the burning of Teldrassil?

'Cause currently we've got nothing in the datamined files that follows through with Ion Hazzikostas's statement that the Alliance will get a taste of why the Nightborn are joining the Horde in the questing content. So something's going to happen, yet, that reinforces their decision to join the Horde.

My money is on the Nelves lead by Tyrande attacking the Shal'dorei and Suramar, probably from Val'Sharah.

If she did that, Sylvanas would have a good reason for her characterization to march on Teldrassil. What's more, that reasoning would extend to Saurfang, Baine, and Lorthemar Theron, none of which trust Sylvanas and wouldn't attack Teldrassil without a good solid reason.

It would also give the Alliance Players a taste of why she joined the Horde by allowing Alliance Players to attack Suramar or at least the Shal'dorei.

It would be the most perfect way from here to BFA to establish the Nightborn as a Horde Allied Race, trigger the events of the Burning of Teldrassil, and start the war up without it being a complete ass-pull. Tyrande now has good reason to attack the Shal'dorei, and I honestly think she should.

[sillag]

Is that a datamined line that I haven't read, yet, or is that you painting her as badly as you can in light of the burning of Teldrassil?

'Cause currently we've got nothing in the datamined files that follows through with Ion Hazzikostas's statement that the Alliance will get a taste of why the Nightborn are joining the Horde in the questing content. So something's going to happen, yet, that reinforces their decision to join the Horde.

My money is on the Nelves lead by Tyrande attacking the Shal'dorei and Suramar, probably from Val'Sharah.

If she did that, Sylvanas would have a good reason for her characterization to march on Teldrassil. What's more, that reasoning would extend to Saurfang, Baine, and Lorthemar Theron, none of which trust Sylvanas and wouldn't attack Teldrassil without a good solid reason.

It would also give the Alliance Players a taste of why she joined the Horde by allowing Alliance Players to attack Suramar or at least the Shal'dorei.

It would be the most perfect way from here to BFA to establish the Nightborn as a Horde Allied Race, trigger the events of the Burning of Teldrassil, and start the war up without it being a complete ass-pull. Tyrande now has good reason to attack the Shal'dorei, and I honestly think she should.

im afraid its real friend

First Arcanist Thalyssra: Good luck, $p. As for me, I am going to test my skill in Ashenvale. For the Horde!.

im gonna tell you now that she isnt going to ashenvale to test herself on a mission of peace

[Steampunkette]

im afraid its real friend

First Arcanist Thalyssra: Good luck, $p. As for me, I am going to test my skill in Ashenvale. For the Horde!.

im gonna tell you now that she isnt going to ashenvale to test herself on a mission of peace

Well. Shit.

I need to lower the bar of my faith in Blizzard's writing team... And I'd already lowered it -so- damned much...

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Well... It -would- show in part why Sylvanas is in the "Shocked" pose if the Nightborn are the ones who go after Teldrassil and set it, and the war, off.

Damn that's dark as fuck, though.

[Darktbs]

My money is on the Nelves lead by Tyrande attacking the Shal'dorei and Suramar, probably from Val'Sharah.

If she did that, Sylvanas would have a good reason for her characterization to march on Teldrassil. What's more, that reasoning would extend to Saurfang, Baine, and Lorthemar Theron, none of which trust Sylvanas and wouldn't attack Teldrassil without a good solid reason.

It would also give the Alliance Players a taste of why she joined the Horde by allowing Alliance Players to attack Suramar or at least the Shal'dorei.

It would be the most perfect way from here to BFA to establish the Nightborn as a Horde Allied Race, trigger the events of the Burning of Teldrassil, and start the war up without it being a complete ass-pull. Tyrande now has good reason to attack the Shal'dorei, and I honestly think she should.

Im sorry but what?Why would Tyrande attack Suramar?It makes no god damn sense.She had reasons to distrust Thalyssra for good reasons but that was it, distrust, when the attack the nighthold ended, they have proven themselfs.

[sillag]

yea if you are hoping for the alliance to start a war up you will be disappointed by blizzard

its either gonna be sylvanas gets framed up by old god corrupted vereesa or sylvanas just does it herself. either way its gonna be dumb. im already looking forward for this expansion being over and it hasnt even started

[Steampunkette]

Im sorry but what?Why would Tyrande attack Suramar?It makes no god damn sense.She had reasons to distrust Thalyssra for good reasons but that was it, distrust, when the attack the nighthold ended, they have proven themselfs.

By joining the Horde she shows that Tyrande's distrust and disdain for the Nightborn was justified. That they're on the wrong side of the war and specifically positioning themselves to be opposed to the Night Elves "After all I've done for you?!" would be enough of a slap in the face for her to attack them within lore, giving the Alliance a third Leader who would be happy to fight the Horde.

But apparently Thalyssra is going to be the one starting the conflict, according to the datamined text. Any attempt at establishing her character through Legion is, effectively out the window and I'm super fucking annoyed about the whole mess.

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yea if you are hoping for the alliance to start a war up you will be disappointed by blizzard

its either gonna be sylvanas gets framed up by old god corrupted vereesa or sylvanas just does it herself. either way its gonna be dumb. im already looking forward for this expansion being over and it hasnt even started

It looks like Thalyssra might be starting it as her first act as a member of the Horde. Unless "Testing her Skills in Ashenvale" means something more defensive against Nelfy incursions, there, but I sincerely doubt it.

[sillag]

By joining the Horde she shows that Tyrande's distrust and disdain for the Nightborn was justified. That they're on the wrong side of the war and specifically positioning themselves to be opposed to the Night Elves "After all I've done for you?!" would be enough of a slap in the face for her to attack them within lore, giving the Alliance a third Leader who would be happy to fight the Horde.

But apparently Thalyssra is going to be the one starting the conflict, according to the datamined text. Any attempt at establishing her character through Legion is, effectively out the window and I'm super fucking annoyed about the whole mess.

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It looks like Thalyssra might be starting it as her first act as a member of the Horde. Unless "Testing her Skills in Ashenvale" means something more defensive against Nelfy incursions, there, but I sincerely doubt it.

nah i dont think thalyssra is going to start the war up. they just put that line in there for horde pride. look shes one of us now shes ready to start killing the alliance thats all it takes. i know blizzard enough that they wont have thought about whether her doing that would start a war.

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however i have underestimated how bad blizzard writing can get before and the idea of the biggest alliance vs horde war ever starting because a leader was kind of abrasive while helping another leader save her people and home from becoming slaves to demons is so stupid that it might just happen

[Steampunkette]

nah i dont think thalyssra is going to start the war up. they just put that line in there for horde pride. look shes one of us now shes ready to start killing the alliance thats all it takes. i know blizzard enough that they wont have thought about whether her doing that would start a war.

Here's the real shit, though: There's nothing in Sylvanas's character or history that puts her so at odds with the Nelves that she'd burn down their home, or even launch a major offensive against them in the first place. If she was just "War-Crazy Conqueror" there's no way Saurfang, Baine, or Lorthemar (in that order) would go along with her decision to launch the attack on Teldrassil because it would result in a -massive- reprisal from a superior military force. Saurfang has already kind of warned/threatened her in the book that's coming out soon.

So going after Darkshore and Teldrassil makes no sense for the current Horde Leadership. Thalyssra, on the other hand, could be a catalyst because of her own history with Tyrande and her apparent desire to head out to Ashenvale to test out her skills (Literally going to the Border of Nelf/Orc lands to do her magic "For the Horde"). It's a shit angle, but it's marginally less terrible than Sylvanas getting a wild hair up her ass and going after Teldrassil, since it destroys Thalyssra's characterization but not the characterization of basically every Horde leader.

[rowaasr13]

These are the Horde Nightborne. The ones who, with Thalyssra's return to power and Elisande's fall, will be outcasts and exiles facing imprisonment, death, etc. The ones who NEED allies, and need to leave Suramar to find another place to call home. That is part of what it means to be Horde, to be the underdog, the outcast, the group with questionable motives, ready to embrace power, not druidic-arcane balance. It would be perfect for a group of exiles to seek asylum with the blood elves and the Horde, and these are the Nightborne who wouldn't mind Sylvanas' approach to leadership, because they are the ones who were fine with Elisande being in power so long as they benefited.

In just a few paragraphs you've managed to tell better and more realistic story that entire Blizzard combined.

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the same with alleria and light draenei

Except those are joining peaceful faction that won't go Horde-hunting every day and Nightborne are joining "WAR in WARcraft, rawrrwrwrwrwrwrwrw!" fanatical racists.

[Andromedes]

To everyone telling "Nightborne should stay neutral"

Okay let's think about history, logic and etc. They sitting in the middle of ocean. Between 2 continents almost in the middle. Both continents go in war! BOTH! so... how do you think - what will happen with a little kingdom wich sit between 2 fatass factions. ON THE BEST STRATEGIC ROUT TO BOTH CONTINENTS! AFTER FU**ING CIVIL WAR! Weakened, and bleeding. They can't keep their neutrality in current state.
It's like you presented with 2 chairs. Nightborne MUST make the choice - so they made it toward someone who are NOT ARROGANT ARCANEHATING Night elf. To someone who even after WotA events swallowed their pride and saw them as their brothers, not as thing wich "make things done".
Everyone who will answer pandaria. Pandaria sit not on the main road between 2 continents and have more forces (and celestials on top of it) than single suramar city and it's inhabitants, who are weak after all events happened. Even if pandaria can be conquered - it will drink MUCH MORE blood from attacker than suramar (especialy after nightwell destroyed).

No they dont need to make a choice.. Broken isles were untouched by Alliance and Horde before arrival of buring legion.. it will be untouched after destroying the burning legion.. Nightborne arent forced to join either of those factions. They can finally live in peace in their city. Also, ever heard of Switzerland?

[Steampunkette]

No they dont need to make a choice.. Broken isles were untouched by Alliance and Horde before arrival of buring legion.. it will be untouched after destroying the burning legion.. Nightborne arent forced to join either of those factions. They can finally live in peace in their city. Also, ever heard of Switzerland?

When the Cold Hit even "Neutral" nations wound up the site of proxy wars for the superpowers. And a nation with some of the most powerful magic there is trying to remain neutral is likely to be conquered for it's resources. Especially after the "Invetment" each side put into them.

Switzerland got to be neutral because of it's mountains and it's snipers, not because they waved the Neutral Flag and everyone else went "Yeah, okay".

[Zorish]

No they dont need to make a choice.. Broken isles were untouched by Alliance and Horde before arrival of buring legion.. it will be untouched after destroying the burning legion.. Nightborne arent forced to join either of those factions. They can finally live in peace in their city. Also, ever heard of Switzerland?

every leader who ignore this strategic point will be marked as "unfittable for his position" by history itself. Peace? when 2 continents at war? when Old God doing some shit even on broken isle? (look tauren quest line) can you make me stop laugh already?

When the Cold Hit even "Neutral" nations wound up the site of proxy wars for the superpowers. And a nation with some of the most powerful magic there is trying to remain neutral is likely to be conquered for it's resources. Especially after the "Invetment" each side put into them.

Switzerland got to be neutral because of it's mountains and it's snipers, not because they waved the Neutral Flag and everyone else went "Yeah, okay".

man i already love you. someone with some common logic there.

[Andromedes]

Yeah except nightwell no longer exists, broken isles are ravaged by legion.. Also i didnt know that there was any investment, i thought that liadrin was helping those poor nightborne just because she is so altruistic and she understands their troubles.

[Verdugo]

When the Cold Hit even "Neutral" nations wound up the site of proxy wars for the superpowers. And a nation with some of the most powerful magic there is trying to remain neutral is likely to be conquered for it's resources. Especially after the "Invetment" each side put into them.

Switzerland got to be neutral because of it's mountains and it's snipers, not because they waved the Neutral Flag and everyone else went "Yeah, okay".

See: Belgium. They tried the flag trick and Germany just went "no".

[Andromedes]

These rich broken isles, they are now big strategic point, the inhabitants have to choose or they will be slaughtered by 2 supernations..

yeaaaaah, and 2 years ago there was this excuse why we didnt visit broken isles before: ''nobody had reason to go there, until now, because legion''

[Zorish]

Yeah except nightwell no longer exists, broken isles are ravaged by legion.. Also i didnt know that there was any investment, i thought that liadrin was helping those poor nightborne just because she is so altruistic and she understands their troubles.

EXACTLY!
1) Nightborne NEED help from others to atleast restore their positions in this world after all the sh*t happened! who you will join? likeminded brothers who had (and have) exactly same problem, who use similar power, who are not cold to you... or yoy will join to someone who see you as... "mistrustfull arcaneuser who bring demons in this world"?
2) EXACTLY after all what happened they are BEST target for assimilation! they are on strategic position, they have science (magic, ancient tecniques, arcandor, powerfull mages by themself). And they need help? even if i am coachsitting politic with no actual expirience. I WILL RUN TO MAKE THEM MY ALLIES! THAT'S JUST COMMON SENSE!

[Steampunkette]

The Nightwell is down, sure.

But there's still the Leylines, the Golems, the Magic Artifacts, the Material Wealth, the Crystalized Mana, the natural resources, and a massive populace that could be conscripted into a fighting force.

With the barrier protecting Suramar down, -all- of the shit they've got is up for grabs for anyone with the military power to take it.

[Rhlor]

In just a few paragraphs you've managed to tell better and more realistic story that entire Blizzard combined.

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Except those are joining peaceful faction that won't go Horde-hunting every day and Nightborne are joining "WAR in WARcraft, rawrrwrwrwrwrwrwrw!" fanatical racists.

They joined the faction where the people who like them feel comfortable with the blood elves.