[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Deleted]

Which is precisely why we should have stayed in the Union, stopped sending retards like UKIP to represent UK interests, and took more power for the UK.

But you know, Brexiteers and common sense don't really go hand in hand.

That really is the core issue as far as brexiteers are concerned, they may prefer a reality sans the EU as much as they like, it still ain't going anywhere.

[zealo]

Donald Tusk says the EU will refuse the UK's demand for talks on a post-Brexit transition and future trade pact if Ireland is not satisfied with its offer on border arrangements with Northern Ireland.

So Ireland got a formal veto over 'sufficient progress'.

So either the UK caves to a sea border arrangement or a no deal exit is what will happen then? clock is ticking for the UK and all.

[Slant]

So either the UK caves to a sea border arrangement or a no deal exit is what will happen then? clock is ticking for the UK and all.

To be honest, nobody knows, I wouldn't even be able to make such a decision. The UK cannot comply with EU demands while also keeping the GFA up. Those two treaties exclude each other in the current state in that the EU rules mandate a hard border between RoI and NI while the GFA guarantees that no hard border will be installed between RoI and NI.

What the UK doesn't want to accept is that they are literally between a rock and a hard place and the only choice they have is get super creative by installing a hard border between NI and England, which NI doesn't want, or convincing RoI to disregard EU rules, upon which the EU will start a breach of treaty regulation process and will put fine upon fine on RoI until they close the border, or simply break/renegotiate GFA, which neither RoI nor NI want. The UK is fucked whatever they do, no matter how you twist and turn this thing.

[ranzino]

Donald Tusk says the EU will refuse the UK's demand for talks on a post-Brexit transition and future trade pact if Ireland is not satisfied with its offer on border arrangements with Northern Ireland.

So Ireland got a formal veto over 'sufficient progress'.

AFAIK it's the only veto opportunity RoI has and therefore they will use it.

for a video of Tusk's speech:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8087556.html

[Huehuecoyotl]

To be honest, nobody knows, I wouldn't even be able to make such a decision. The UK cannot comply with EU demands while also keeping the GFA up. Those two treaties exclude each other in the current state in that the EU rules mandate a hard border between RoI and NI while the GFA guarantees that no hard border will be installed between RoI and NI.

What the UK doesn't want to accept is that they are literally between a rock and a hard place and the only choice they have is get super creative by installing a hard border between NI and England, which NI doesn't want, or convincing RoI to disregard EU rules, upon which the EU will start a breach of treaty regulation process and will put fine upon fine on RoI until they close the border, or simply break/renegotiate GFA, which neither RoI nor NI want. The UK is fucked whatever they do, no matter how you twist and turn this thing.

You missed the other amusing things. That if they keep the border between NI and Ireland open, they are effectively removing their ability to control the movement of EU people. So much for taking control of immigration. Or that their other "possible" option, of moving the border effectively to the Irish Sea, wouldn't be acceptable to the EU anyway, since that would be a border between the EU and UK that the EU wouldn't have control over. No way they are agreeing with that.

The only option, ONLY option they have, is to have an open border, with free movement of people and goods. And the only way that happens is if we stay in the EU, or we take the Norway option. Which is basically all the perceived disadvantages and costs of the EU, with none of the input to the law making process and no veto.

Brexit is screwed, basically. They either water it down to such an extent that it's pointless, or they put a border in Ireland that would restart the Troubles. Can't wait until the Tories have to sell those two unpalatable options to the people that voted for Brexit.

[Slant]

You missed the other amusing things. That if they keep the border between NI and Ireland open, they are effectively removing their ability to control the movement of EU people. So much for taking control of immigration. Or that their other "possible" option, of moving the border effectively to the Irish Sea, wouldn't be acceptable to the EU anyway, since that would be a border between the EU and UK that the EU wouldn't have control over. No way they are agreeing with that.

The only option, ONLY option they have, is to have an open border, with free movement of people and goods. And the only way that happens is if we stay in the EU, or we take the Norway option. Which is basically all the perceived disadvantages and costs of the EU, with none of the input to the law making process and no veto.

Brexit is screwed, basically. They either water it down to such an extent that it's pointless, or they put a border in Ireland that would restart the Troubles. Can't wait until the Tories have to sell those two unpalatable options to the people that voted for Brexit.

Yes. Everything you said. But while you seem to perceve the problem, many of your countrymen are simply ignoring it. And those are the people that already blame the EU for this situation. As if the EU forced Britain into a Brexit or even had a say in the GFA. If I was a cynical person, I'd claim that Britain was actually trying to leverage Ireland into a position where they have to seriously consider leaving the EU as well, just to keep the peace on their island. And then they can go "See? The EU is falling like dominoes."

Luckily, I'm not a cynical man and assume that they simply didn't think this thing through beyond "Duh, Brexit because I don't like continental Europe run by the French and Germans of all people..."

[Huehuecoyotl]

Yes. Everything you said. But while you seem to perceve the problem, many of your countrymen are simply ignoring it. And those are the people that already blame the EU for this situation. As if the EU forced Britain into a Brexit or even had a say in the GFA. If I was a cynical person, I'd claim that Britain was actually trying to leverage Ireland into a position where they have to seriously consider leaving the EU as well, just to keep the peace on their island. And then they can go "See? The EU is falling like dominoes."

Luckily, I'm not a cynical man and assume that they simply didn't think this thing through beyond "Duh, Brexit because I don't like continental Europe run by the French and Germans of all people..."

They couldn't get the people of NI to agree to Brexit, no way they are getting the rest of Ireland to agree to leave the EU. I suspect those people are a little better educated about the benefits of membership.

I would suspect that the Tories are planning to engineer a situation where they can call off the Brexit and blame it on someone else; the wider EU, the Irish government. Even the "traitors" that they are blaming for sabotaging the process. I strongly believe that they realise the damage they will do to themselves if it goes ahead, but also recognise the damage that being seen to make the decision to abandon it will do. So it will stop because of outside agencies, and the press will get onboard the process of driving that narrative. Anything to avoid the "danger" of a moderately Socialist government getting into power.

[dribbles]

Hello Eurochums, sorry I've been neglecting you, Antorus and all that.

Still bleating on about the non-issue Irish border I see. As I have been saying for weeks now....

Rees-Mogg offers BRILLIANT formula to end Brexit deadlock

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88...nd-Theresa-May

“Therefore, it is up to the European Union and the Republic of Ireland if they wanted to impose their own hard border, but the UK wasn’t going to, didn’t need to, and there is your solution.”

No problem you see, ball is still in the EU's court.

tick tock...

[Huehuecoyotl]

Hello Eurochums, sorry I've been neglecting you, Antorus and all that.

Still bleating on about the non-issue Irish border I see. As I have been saying for weeks now....

Rees-Mogg offers BRILLIANT formula to end Brexit deadlock

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88...nd-Theresa-May

“Therefore, it is up to the European Union and the Republic of Ireland if they wanted to impose their own hard border, but the UK wasn’t going to, didn’t need to, and there is your solution.”

No problem you see, ball is still in the EU's court.

tick tock...

So, according to Reese Mogg, that chinless wonder, it's actually a "very simple" thing to solve. Which begs the question of why it has taken them 18 months to come up with it? If it is, after all so simple to achieve.

This isn't a solution. The lack of a border isn't a problem at the moment because even if the VAT rates are different the legislative frameworks around goods and services are the same. Once there is divergence, then the EU has to plug the hole allowing the shoddy goods we are going to be making into their market. And I would LOVE to hear how leaving an open border with Ireland squares with the UK red line of stopping immigration. If the border is open, how are we going to stop anyone that wants to come into the UK from the EU from just walking across it? Or are we planning on setting up custom checks between the UK mainland and NI? How are the Tories going to sell THAT one to the DUP?

Feel free to come back with your usual jingoistic nonsense and absence of any credible response. I would expect nothing more from you.

[Slant]

They couldn't get the people of NI to agree to Brexit, no way they are getting the rest of Ireland to agree to leave the EU. I suspect those people are a little better educated about the benefits of membership.

I would suspect that the Tories are planning to engineer a situation where they can call off the Brexit and blame it on someone else; the wider EU, the Irish government. Even the "traitors" that they are blaming for sabotaging the process. I strongly believe that they realise the damage they will do to themselves if it goes ahead, but also recognise the damage that being seen to make the decision to abandon it will do. So it will stop because of outside agencies, and the press will get onboard the process of driving that narrative. Anything to avoid the "danger" of a moderately Socialist government getting into power.

Well, the EU already is the scapegoat for basically anything, why not blame it on them again. It's not like the EU is not going to be blamed for whatever outcome this is going to bring us. It's a bit unfair, but as the whole Brexit discussion has shown, fairness or reality doesn't seem to matter for some people. And when the EU start putting on the fighting gloves to hammer out a decent deal for its members, they cry foul. Low, low morality for some people.

[Dhrizzle]

To be honest, nobody knows, I wouldn't even be able to make such a decision. The UK cannot comply with EU demands while also keeping the GFA up. Those two treaties exclude each other in the current state in that the EU rules mandate a hard border between RoI and NI while the GFA guarantees that no hard border will be installed between RoI and NI.

What the UK doesn't want to accept is that they are literally between a rock and a hard place and the only choice they have is get super creative by installing a hard border between NI and England, which NI doesn't want, or convincing RoI to disregard EU rules, upon which the EU will start a breach of treaty regulation process and will put fine upon fine on RoI until they close the border, or simply break/renegotiate GFA, which neither RoI nor NI want. The UK is fucked whatever they do, no matter how you twist and turn this thing.

The only answer is keeping NI in the customs union and having the Irish Sea be the border. It wouldn't make everyone happy but it seems to be the only way to move forward (short of keeping the whole UK in the customs union.) The problem is the Conservatives had to jump in bed with the DUP (in a move that made our democracy seem even more farcical than usual) and for them anything that treats NI different to the rest of the UK is a line that can not be crossed, so any moves in that direction could lead to the government collapsing.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I didn't see it mentioned here, but despite David Davis insisting we could keep them in London and any changes would be decided as part of the Brexit negotiations, the European Banking Authority and Medicines Agency will be finding new homes in Paris and Amsterdam respectively.

[Deleted]

Hello Eurochums, sorry I've been neglecting you, Antorus and all that.

Still bleating on about the non-issue Irish border I see. As I have been saying for weeks now....

Rees-Mogg offers BRILLIANT formula to end Brexit deadlock

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88...nd-Theresa-May

“Therefore, it is up to the European Union and the Republic of Ireland if they wanted to impose their own hard border, but the UK wasn’t going to, didn’t need to, and there is your solution.”

No problem you see, ball is still in the EU's court.

tick tock...

showing that the tories funementally do not understand brexit?

Nice to see Rees-Mogg meet Steve Bannon earlier : https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nnon-in-london

Toxic rat.

[Floopa]

it is good to see Britain holding up to it's financial obligations, this is something Britain is renowned and respected for - contractual agreements. we are honouring our contractual obligations with the eu and will be able to move on to glorious trade talks.

i am also super happy theresa may condemned donald trump for his retweeting of britain first. i am disappointed however she has not yet rescinded his state visit invitation.

[Skroe]

it is good to see Britain holding up to it's financial obligations, this is something Britain is renowned and respected for - contractual agreements. we are honouring our contractual obligations with the eu and will be able to move on to glorious trade talks.

i am also super happy theresa may condemned donald trump for his retweeting of britain first. i am disappointed however she has not yet rescinded his state visit invitation.

Weren't you saying nice things about Trump not too long ago?

[Floopa]

Weren't you saying nice things about Trump not too long ago?

i said i think americans should try to rally around him as uniting a country helps stabilise a country. however he is just divisive and feeds off of dividing his country. also he is now being seen as a blatant racist and islamophobe. im sure the vast majority of Britain would agree referring a far right fringe group is not presidential nor is it helpful. he’s purely inciting hate.

[Deleted]

Hello Eurochums, sorry I've been neglecting you, Antorus and all that.

Still bleating on about the non-issue Irish border I see. As I have been saying for weeks now....

Rees-Mogg offers BRILLIANT formula to end Brexit deadlock

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88...nd-Theresa-May

“Therefore, it is up to the European Union and the Republic of Ireland if they wanted to impose their own hard border, but the UK wasn’t going to, didn’t need to, and there is your solution.”

No problem you see, ball is still in the EU's court.

tick tock...

I'm sorry I still don't understand, people like you voted for Brexit precisely so we could control our borders and stop migration from the continent, and yet you are completely willing to leave an open land border with an EU country?

Like, the chain of logic is absurd.

Vote for Brexit so that we get control of our borders, our only land border with the continent, a border that without a hard border could allow EU citizens unlimited access to the UK.

But then simultaneously say that you don't want a hard border with the EU.

If we don't build borders and isolate ourselves, what did you even vote for?

Like, what happens if the EU decides it doesn't want a hard border there either? Then we've just got a giant backdoor into the UK for plenty of those pesky migrants to get through.

[Triks]

Weren't you saying nice things about Trump not too long ago?

This is the Brexit supporter who will move to France when Brexit fails.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I'm sorry I still don't understand, people like you voted for Brexit precisely so we could control our borders and stop migration from the continent, and yet you are completely willing to leave an open land border with an EU country?

Like, the chain of logic is absurd.

Vote for Brexit so that we get control of our borders, our only land border with the continent, a border that without a hard border could allow EU citizens unlimited access to the UK.

But then simultaneously say that you don't want a hard border with the EU.

If we don't build borders and isolate ourselves, what did you even vote for?

Like, what happens if the EU decides it doesn't want a hard border there either? Then we've just got a giant backdoor into the UK for plenty of those pesky migrants to get through.

You know what, it's weird that Dribbles didn't respond to me either when I made this point. Considering how "simple" the solution is, according to Reese Smug, you would have thought he would have been able to explain things immediately. Still, I'm sure he will be back with more of his combination jingoism and ignorance soon enough. And I'm equally sure he will ignore both of us when he does.

[Triks]

Hello Eurochums, sorry I've been neglecting you, Antorus and all that.

Still bleating on about the non-issue Irish border I see. As I have been saying for weeks now....

Rees-Mogg offers BRILLIANT formula to end Brexit deadlock

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88...nd-Theresa-May

“Therefore, it is up to the European Union and the Republic of Ireland if they wanted to impose their own hard border, but the UK wasn’t going to, didn’t need to, and there is your solution.”

No problem you see, ball is still in the EU's court.

tick tock...

If you don't want a hard border you either need to be in the single market and customs union or have agreements that mirror those. We aren't going to let you have a backdoor to the single market like that.

[dribbles]

I'm sorry I still don't understand, people like you voted for Brexit precisely so we could control our borders and stop migration from the continent, and yet you are completely willing to leave an open land border with an EU country?

Like, the chain of logic is absurd.

Vote for Brexit so that we get control of our borders, our only land border with the continent, a border that without a hard border could allow EU citizens unlimited access to the UK.

But then simultaneously say that you don't want a hard border with the EU.

If we don't build borders and isolate ourselves, what did you even vote for?

Like, what happens if the EU decides it doesn't want a hard border there either? Then we've just got a giant backdoor into the UK for plenty of those pesky migrants to get through.

You know what, it's weird that Dribbles didn't respond to me either when I made this point. Considering how "simple" the solution is, according to Reese Smug, you would have thought he would have been able to explain things immediately. Still, I'm sure he will be back with more of his combination jingoism and ignorance soon enough. And I'm equally sure he will ignore both of us when he does.

Because it is a non issue. We do not have a problem with illegal immigration through the Irish border pre brexit and we won't have a problem post brexit either. If the EU want a border on Ireland let them build it at cost to their taxpayers rather than UK ones. Waste of time and money.

Honestly I feel like Rick Grimes amongst the remainer walking dead at times....

If you don't want a hard border you either need to be in the single market and customs union or have agreements that mirror those. We aren't going to let you have a backdoor to the single market like that.

Then you, as in the EU, build that border already and stop whinging about it.